Hoe_Math: Is There Any Realistic Path Left For Men?

Join hosts Malcolm Collins and Simone Collins in an engaging conversation with HoMath as they delve into the complex issues surrounding modern dating from a male perspective. This episode explores the impacts of societal changes, the role of AI in personal development, and practical advice for young men navigating the current dating landscape. Discover HoMath's innovative AI app, 'Self Max,' designed to help individuals optimize their lives and better understand their personal goals. They also discuss the broader implications of AI on the job market and society, as well as practical advice for women in today's world. Don't miss this thought-provoking discussion on the future of relationships, AI, and societal evolution.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, this is Malcolm Collins and we are today here with HoMath I think that you so articulately pull apart the problems with modern dating, particularly from a male perspective. And you do it in a way that is.

More realistic than us because I always have to assume that there's some way out of this like I in my head like I'm like, okay, like it's astronomically bad right now, but there's got to be like, I have to tell people things with the assumption that we save civilization.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nice to feel that way.

If you, if you can, you can figure it out now. But

Malcolm Collins: that's what I want to talk about with you is, if you're forced to try to see a path through this, for a young man, or for society, how do you do it?

Speaker 2: So, for a young man, there are two ways of going about it. You can either be really selfish, and you can try to figure out how to just be your, your, the harem master.

You know, because [00:01:00] that's where things are going. We just, things have broken down. And if you can turn yourself into a local, I think they call it a contextual alpha, a local 10,

Simone Collins: then you can,

Speaker 2: yeah, then you can just win on in your small pond, if you can find a, a pond small enough, because even out in like you drive five hours East of Portland.

Oregon and you get to towns where the girls just leave like all the pretty girls are just like well I can get someone to ship me somewhere else. So

Malcolm Collins: yeah,

Speaker 2: there really aren't. Yeah, there really aren't any small towns any small ponds anymore

Malcolm Collins: This is what people do like I did this a lot in high school around like subgroups like it's oh You want to hang out with the goths because there isn't like a Chad in the goth.

Yeah

Speaker 2: That's why the goths do that because it's about the makeup and not about like, you know competing It's just like a, it's a way to jump off to the side and say, I'm the top of something else. So there's that. And then there's trying to fix society. This one's easier. It's easier. It's more rewarding.

Trying to fix society is what I'm trying to do because I don't, [00:02:00] I wouldn't find any satisfaction in this. It just, I don't see any reason to, to accelerate the problem if it's going to cause. I mean, it causes society to break down, you know, and I don't want to live in a broken down society. I find it very unpleasant.

So I'm trying to fix it and I'm doing that by, I don't know if you guys are aware that I have a a subscription product based on this, this mind map that I made called self mask. No,

Malcolm Collins: go into this. I want to know.

Speaker 2: So I was promising people to make a map like really, really early on when I was making content, I said I was going to cover everything that you need to maximize about yourself in order to you know, get the best possible position you can in the dating market.

And I started doing this and I said, well, everything is kind of kind of tied to everything else. So I needed to make an entire system of how the mind works. It starts with what you want, what you want, moves into the way that you think. And then your things, your, your The things you think about move into the behaviors you choose and the way you appear to others, which interact with your [00:03:00] environment, create your situation and then you view it and then you can think about that again.

Change what you want or change what you do. So I just put it all on paper and I have a couple of developers who are coding this into a system so you can. Go to the site and type in like, I don't know what I want. And there's a, what do you want exercise? And it figures out what you want. And then it says, well, what are you doing?

And where, where would you go to get what you want? So it leads you through the process. So this is as far, how far I'm going to try to fix society. I'm creating AI apps that are 10 bucks a month so that people can go, how do I you know, pick myself up out of this mess and I'm going to. Give, I'm going to fill it with exercises and I'm going to try to structure it as much as possible to not let people use it in that, in, in that way to, you know, people, people, I love

Malcolm Collins: this because it is very similar to the system that we did when our first book ages ago we built a [00:04:00] system for like improving yourself and it's very similar.

To what you structured there, which is to say, you know, we say first decide like what you think has intrinsic value and we go through all the things a person might think has value, then build your like ideological tree of how you see reality, which will have like a core stump that might be like a theology or might be like a political worldview and then it branches into micro hypotheses.

And then with these two things, craft the version of yourself that would best be able to maximize your things of intrinsic value. Because people are always like, Oh, be, be who you really are. And I'm like, there is no who you really are. That's just like who the world serendipitously made you.

Speaker 2: That's funny because these are things that I have been saying recently.

I, I have a video I'm working on called the table. You know how are you familiar with the dating language? How the guys will say, what do you bring to the table? And the girls will say, I am the table. Yeah. So. The, the male version of that is I want her to like me for me and I'm making a video that's based on there's, there's no you, there's [00:05:00] only things people can see about you and you can control some of those.

So that's, that's interesting that you said that and at the same time had the same idea for the structure of how this works. I, I said recently, I think on a tweet, probably I tweet a lot. I said that. When you find the same, when you find the truth, it's always the same truth as everyone else who found the truth, because the truth is true.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, I completely agree. Another thing that we say in that book that, that probably aligns with stuff that you said before, is Everyone is a, you, you are a side character in everyone else's, you know, life you have ever met. And if you try to structure the you that they're interacting with to be a main character, you're going to come off like a Mary Sue.

And side characters are simplistic. They have easy to understand flaws. They fit into stereotypes. And if you can craft yourself into that type of person, you're going to fit much easier into the life of whether it's a woman or somebody else, because they're going to. Have a [00:06:00] slot. They can fit you in.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think you're talking about kind of like development, like ego development there that people tend to think of. They begin life thinking about themselves and their needs. And we are, I made a video recently about The maturity crisis and about how people are not climbing up the levels of development.

This is just a short I'm going to print out a whole page. But are you familiar with ken wilber?

Simone Collins: No, I don't think either of us are No, what did he do? Did he like coin this like term the maturity crisis? I mean we're all talking about infantilization

Speaker 2: yeah, no, he he conglomerated a bunch of different systems of like a spirituality and psychological development and so on and so forth This is, he has a system called all quadrant, all level.

This is my depiction of the quadrants. It's about how you have to, if you're looking at a situation, you have to understand the interior of your mind, the outer of the experience, and then the collective of both, so the culture and the system. And then there's [00:07:00] also developmental psychology, which is the part that people always are always the most interested in.

And the maturity crisis is, I don't know if I coined that term. I might have heard a few people use it, but I don't know who they were. And it's basically that what's happening right now is we live in a culture where everybody is. Especially the men are not growing up to the level where it would be if you're using the Lawrence Kohlberg level set of levels that would be law and order morality and men are not growing up to that They're staying in the good boy morality.

So you're seeing a bunch of grown men who are like look at me I'm doing the nice thing

Simone Collins: And it's

Speaker 2: that doesn't work It doesn't keep society going. Men have to, men typically develop more than women. On average, women tend to stay on average in the good girl stage and men move into the law and order stage.

And that would be levels three and four out of six, but now we're seeing a lot of people stay in the lower.

Malcolm Collins: So I think that you've captured something really huge here [00:08:00] that I want to pull out, which is to say that if we look at the challenges that we're facing as a society right now, in part within dating markets and stuff like that, it's, it's, it's true.

It's not just easy. It's also true to look at the market and say, well, the market has the switching costs are too low for women right now. And it leads to all of these problems of your man dating and everything like that. But these are things that you and I. Cannot fix. So we've got to look at the bigger structural problems.

And what the biggest structural problem that society has right now is that people are not given the mental scaffolding and tools to build complex metaphysical frameworks for right and wrong and about structuring their lives. And ironically, I think a lot of this came. I'm gonna say, like, from, I don't know if you're, our, like, the, the religious, like, right side created a lot of this problem in the 80s and 90s when they [00:09:00] were like, kids can't be taught anything other than the metaphysical framework I'm giving them at home in school.

And so the school then stopped teaching all of that stuff and then and they became afraid to talk about, like, meaning and purpose and why you exist. And so, then the home life became secular. And now all of a sudden that entire framework, both the school and the home, is giving people no reason to exist.

Speaker 2: Right, exactly. We're, we, we no longer have any cultural cohesion around meaning. And that is, it's very ironic because It actually stems from a pretty high level of development. This the sixth one here. I gave them rainbow colors to make them easier to remember. The Wilbur system is everybody makes a different set of levels and they call them beige and tangerine and all kinds of nonsense.

No one can remember. So at level six, what has happened since the sixties? This was the first emergence of it. This is like ancient, this is like homeless people, this is like tribes, this is like the Roman [00:10:00] Empire, this is like medieval times, industrial times, and the information age, basically.

Simone Collins: And

Speaker 2: the morality that emerged around the 1960s, beginning in the very early, late industrial, early information age, is that there's any way to look at things.

Anyone can look at things anyway, and it's all valid. So, that's a very high level of development, but it also means that you can't run a school, you can't run a government because everyone disagrees on what's the right way to see things. And if all you ever do is talk about, well, here's how I see it, here's how I see it, then people never actually learn the rules.

So this level tends to dissolve this one so people cannot climb the ladder. That's a running theme for Millennials and Gen Z and whoever comes next. That they're not able to climb the ladder of, of wealth and of maturity and of, of, they're not replacing the boomers and their jobs because they don't have the skills.

They seem to have cut out the path upwards in development.

Malcolm Collins: I want to hear your thoughts on something I feel I've been seeing [00:11:00] recently. Which is the rise of what I call and where would it be on this chart of aesthetic morality were like a lot of people when they're breaking morality systems down, it'll be like, oh, you know, it might be a consequentialist morality.

It might be ideological morality, but then I've noticed this new morality where, when people are asking what they should do or what choice they should make, it's about fulfilling of specific aesthetic vision of what a good. Version of themselves is an example of this. When it really hit me that some people were doing this.

So that's watching this influencer Hamza, who's like a masculine world, sort of like Andrew Tate type influencer. And he was talking about one difficult decision he had in his life about, like, should he move to the city or the countryside for like where he was working? And then he asked himself. What was the most masculine decision?

Like a man, what would, what would the man do in this context? And I started to, as soon as I saw him say that, I started to realize that so many of the influencers who are packaging systems of like how to act for people, package it [00:12:00] around some aesthetic ideal, whether it is, what would a good Christian do, or what would a man do?

Or what would a woman do? And we've even gotten to the state where we've confused. Genders with with moral ideals.

Speaker 2: Yeah, when you say aesthetic, is that a word I should know?

Malcolm Collins: Aesthetic. I'm mispronouncing the word aesthetic.

Speaker 2: Like, Oh, oh, oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, aesthetic, like visual, like sensory.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but also, I mean, I think he means identity. Like, I mean, people also have become Incredibly obsessed with their identities, their brands as though, okay, this is my now my identity. I need to change everything about my life to fit it and all of my decisions are going to be downstream of what conforms with this identity rather than I understand what you mean now, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand what you mean. I'm sorry about that. I, I, I think that what you're talking about is people that are, are so desperate for identity that they're buying, like, pre packaged, almost like a brand name. Like, they just want, like, a box of pancake mix [00:13:00] that you just stir and you have a thing.

They're just like, I just wanna buy a being a thing. Yeah. And so they, they go to Andrew Tate University and then they go, I'm, I'm Andrew Tate now. That's, that's my identity is I'm just gonna be the next Andrew Tate. I opened this up on my computer. By the way, I had a larger map that I made of the Wilbur levels.

So yeah, it's it's, it's large. I'm going to make it principle at some point. But yeah, I've noticed that as well that people are people are purchasing identity, especially when they have less of it. And that comes from. People who recently immigrated into a country and people who don't have strong parenting and who don't don't come from a many traditions and it seems like almost like already.

We don't have any for any form of enduring identity. Now,

Simone Collins: well, I don't you also think it's not sure if I

Speaker 2: caught the whole question, but.

Simone Collins: No, no, I think it's a failure to become an adult because I feel like as kids, we tend to like to [00:14:00] buy identities, right? Like I'm a goth or I'm an e girl now or whatever.

And then as we grow up, we discover like, Oh wait, I have inherent values and can kind of make my own self in the world. And also the way I manifest, I don't have to be part of a team. Like, I think it's maybe part of this infantilization that you're talking about too.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I

Malcolm Collins: think we just got

Speaker 2: persistent.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Continue.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it definitely is. I, this was part of the video that I was talking about with the maturity crisis, how I just drew these three different versions of, of what you can be as an adult, you can either be just the man child or the guy who's just getting wrecked because you have all of the responsibility and you get nothing for it.

But there's a way through that. I'm trying to encourage people because like, it's true. The system is just not helping people grow up. Yeah. If you go to college, you get in debt and then you go into the work world, they just, you just get used and I don't know, I don't know how to teach people how to run [00:15:00] businesses.

I'm trying to teach people to go to get good at something that they can't take away from you. So you can grow up and be mature and develop competence without spending all your time just being soaked. For all of your living energy, but we are having, yeah, we are having a lot of, I don't really know what to say to them when they show up in my comments and my, you know, in my, in my mentions or whatever.

I don't know what to tell these guys like, hey, stop enjoying your life and go do something hard. That doesn't work. You know,

Malcolm Collins: well, one of the things and I have like this is not your, your attitude with this stuff, but it's one that I've been beginning to adopt more and more is, is I, we talked about this in a recent, like the genocide of males video where I'm like, you know, there was a period in human history, if you go to the early agricultural period where one man was breeding for every 14 women, and even if you look at the past generation 60, percent.

I think it was like [00:16:00] 62 percent of males had kids and something like 82 percent of women had kids. And it's like we males are biologically designed to be disposable by society.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Malcolm Collins: And people come to me and they go, how do I, What's the system that's going to win for every male and I'm like, it's not gonna win for every male, but part of the cool thing about it is, is the core reason why a lot of males are going to fail is not looks or height or anything like that.

It is that. I think to an extent, biologically or due to what happened to them before in their life, they're not able to engage with the types of systems that you're putting in front of them. They're not able to say, okay, now I'm going to do the hard thing.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. They're not having an opportunity to do that for sure.

Malcolm Collins: I want to Oh, continue.

Speaker 2: I think I can see Simone speaking, but I can't hear her. You're muted Simone.

Simone Collins: Sorry. I'm next to a [00:17:00] baby and she's also trying to join in and I'm trying to keep her, but is I'm thinking about this and trying to think what I would do if I were a dude and I would probably want to know.

With some certainty, what bucket I'm in, like, am I in the bucket of people who are going to reproduce and have success? Or should I go into basically the MGTOW bucket and just have a really good life, kind of live mostly off the grid, hike, have a dog, collect cars, like ride my motorcycle, have a good time.

And then, you know. Like euthanize myself. So don't die alone and get eaten by my dogs.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Kind of. That's a lot of them also don't have the money to do those things. Like they're never getting a motorcycle, you know? So it's not only are they not going to make it with the ladies, but they also are like delivering pizza 10 hours a week and living with mom.

So I don't know, like, I don't know what to say to them that I keep. I don't know if I have a drawing of it. I guess I'll draw it while I'm talking to you, but I keep [00:18:00] giving them the same Image over and over the same symbol, which I'm using for self max. My product is just a red upward pointing arrow to symbolize that really no matter where you are and what you're doing in life, all living things have to be going somewhere.

You have to be growing because everything else around you is moving. So you have to be headed somewhere.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Speaker 2: and that's what that's what the if you can cultivate that mindset then everything else will naturally emerge from it I don't know What specifics to tell most of these people? but if I can at least give them the attitude of I should be looking for something like instead of sitting on the couch and There's just a lot going on in the younger generations that I think the older ones don't get like gen z tells me that Nobody leaves the house anymore.

I tell them You should go do events and go out and go be, and they say, but you get there and it's just like three [00:19:00] dudes, you know? Yeah, you know, honestly though, like, have you been out

Malcolm Collins: recently? It sucks. They're not raw. Oh my God. This happened to me recently where I went to a thing with my kids, right?

Like I, I, I remember when I was a kid, I'd go to like a birthday party. So I went to a birthday party, not a single parent talked to each other the entire time. All of them were there with phones. Like I don't even. Think it's like just Gen Z. Like we as a society have just been like, why do you, and so as Gen Z, they're having this problem.

And what I wanted to ask you about is, but almost like what next? Because, you know, you're talking about the guy on the moped and everything like that. As we see AI take more and more jobs, where do you, how do you think like dating markets adapt to that? How do you think that people, because we need to be asking these questions ourselves, like anyone who's young today is like.

Okay, given where A. I. Is going to be in 15 years. What skill do I learn? What do I do? How do you think about that?

Speaker 2: I don't think about it. That's scary. Thanks for ruining my day. Yeah, [00:20:00] that's I don't I really don't know what people are going to do. That's going to be worth anything. I think that as we automate everything like we've lost our manufacturing, I don't know if we're getting it back.

If if I actually does grow to the point that Where the lower levels of intellectual labor are not needed. And maybe even higher ones. Maybe we have AI lawyers at some point.

Simone Collins: Oh, we will. No, no, no. I'm sorry. But like, but like Harvard MBAs, Stanford MBAs are already seeing pretty severe delays in the rates at which they're getting hired.

These are the top MBA programs. I think

Malcolm Collins: the Harvard, it was 13 percent of last year's classes unemployed right now. That's crazy.

Simone Collins: They'll eventually get jobs for now. Well, I don't know, maybe, but like, no, we're talking. Like white collar elite jobs are not going to exist anymore. But anyway, carry on. Yeah.

Yeah. Well

Speaker 2: sure Do we do you do we know that's because of ai or is it just like it seems like it's because yeah

Simone Collins: If you listen to like the all in podcast, for example like these vcs [00:21:00] and ceos are like Oh man. Yeah. Like I'm now using chat GPTs premium feature to do work that I used to hire like McKinsey to do.

Speaker 2: It's like, you know,

Simone Collins: 50, 000 and it's doing the part that I

Speaker 2: hadn't heard. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. No, no, no. Yeah. It is exceptional work. Like being an analyst now, basically like, sorry, you're done being a lawyer. Forget that. Like lawyer stuff's easy. The one thing that's going to be hard is like managing court cases, like sibling criminal court cases in, in the court of law.

But that's. Honestly, very easily surmountable. So yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think people are going to have to learn to either, you know, not want things or go farm, you know, go do go homestead because if we have a technology infrastructure that gets everything done without as many people needing to do it, Then what we can't all be delivering each other.

Uber eats. That's if you if you're delivering Uber eats, you don't make enough money to buy Uber eats. So I don't know [00:22:00] if we're going to get unlimited. What was it? Universal universal basic income. I guess it's unlimited. I don't know if we're going to get that. But if we do, I don't think that's very good either.

Because the, you know, the leftist view of things is that You know that things happen like this by themselves, like capitalism, the money goes to the top, the female attention goes to the top. It's sort of nature just does that. And the leftist solution is, well, why don't we just like redistribute it down to the bottom?

And if you do that, then the worst examples of humanity thrive as much as the best. There has to be something that differentiates quality people from low quality people.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, they also it's not persistent. Like every time that has been attempted the, you know, Elite groups are the descendants of elite groups that got disenfranchised end up like taking over.

Malcolm Collins: She's talking about Inquino where they basically inverted society. And if you look today at the people in government positions, they're actually the the distant kids of like the people who are disenfranchised. But I think a more interesting thing. Are you familiar with the Sam [00:23:00] Altman UBI study and what happened with that?

Speaker 2: No.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, it was so crazy. Okay. So they, for three years, gave out a thousand dollars a month to one group of people and then to another group it was $50 a month. So they could sort of control for the two groups. Mm-hmm . The group that was given a thousand dollars a month at the end of the, the experiment had, what was it, $30,000 less in total wealth.

And I think it was just like

Simone Collins: $3,000. It wasn't that much, but basically they, they worked less, they didn't spend more time with their children.

Yeah.

And they. Did not, they had materially less wealth which they just got

Malcolm Collins: lazy.

Simone Collins: Yeah, they got lazy. And it

Malcolm Collins: got lazy. There was another study done on this recently that, that sort of backed up this result that we'll probably do another episode on, but it drew me recently when I was thinking about this, like what happens if you have UBI intergenerationally and.

Somebody on YouTube was had a really insightful thing here where they were looking at Native American communities that had gotten massive government grants for like intergenerationally and how that destroyed the communities entirely. And it made me realize just how badly UBI can [00:24:00] rot a culture if you attempt to do it multiple generations in a row.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And we, you know, we've had families. In America, we've had generations and generations of people who have been just on welfare. I think that that's going on a lot of inner cities. I think that's been going on in Appalachia for a while, like, ever since they gutted the manufacturing industry, the entire Rust Belt is just kind of on food stamps.

I think that that's I don't know how you get outta that. I, I don't know what we do about it. There has to be some way to make people do this, to, to make people, you know, try something and then, and then separate them out into people that succeed in people that don't, and the people that don't succeed.

You can't have like 90% of them starving because then. They're just going to get angry. I don't know. You know, I don't know what the, I know what the, what the, what the principles are. I don't know what we see how it's going to

Simone Collins: play out if, if things don't change. Like, I think it's pretty simple is one. We do get some form of [00:25:00] UBI, like everyone will be fed and two, it's actually not going to be that expensive to keep people.

We'll say like, not violent radicals, because basically the, Between AI and like just really good virtual environments, they're going to be living in sort of fantasy worlds where they do live a good life and have their virtual girlfriends and boyfriends and, you know, children and whatever. So they're, they're out living a fantasy that's not real, but in essentially they're just kind of like.

being euthanized early they don't have kids. They basically don't inherit the future. And they also sort of opt out of reality because they're no longer working. They're only basically consuming money and food and living in their little pleasure pod of, you know, virtual AI driven fantasy. Then there's this small subset of society.

That does like catch the red arrow. They, they move upward. Maybe some of them air gap and become like Amish. And sort of like, like you were saying, homes dead and live off the land. Maybe there are some other groups that choose to build some form of agency in the world that is, [00:26:00] is, is useful to AI and compliant with it.

And then of course there's like the very, very elite that are empowered by the AI. And that utilize it and live in their world cities, but basically like all those people at the bottom. Are basically, they're just being genocided. I don't know how else to put it, but like, they're just going to be wiped out.

They will not exist. And, and it's not just men, it's women too, but it's certainly way more men than women. Oh, it's

Speaker 2: going to be, yeah, it'll be like 80 percent of the male population and probably, yeah, probably about half of the women. Seeing that that's roughly the number that are, you know, empowering themselves by not having kids.

Malcolm Collins: Exactly. And I think some people hear this and they're like, come on, are we really going to move into a society where rich men take like 11 wives? I'm like, excuse me, do we have Elon here? Do we have, do we have Andrew Tate in the room? Like, yeah, it's not even that though. Like

Simone Collins: when you look at and I can't remember the exact number of like, men who have children.

Versus women who have children, what, like 60 percent of men in the U. S. I [00:27:00] already have that

Malcolm Collins: statistic in this, it's 60 to 80%.

Simone Collins: Okay, yeah, and so yeah, just the point that like men already are basically, they're not having concurrent wives or partners at the same time, but just like the serial partnering is the same thing functionally.

Yeah, the

Speaker 2: more desirable men just have an easier time. Mm

Simone Collins: hmm.

Speaker 2: And that's just the way that nature works. That's how that's how walruses do it too. I made it put them in my last video about it.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Speaker 2: we have to accept some degree of that. But at the same time, you have to have enough people doing the stuff that like, I don't know, when are we going to have?

When are we going to be at the point where we have robots? Planting the seeds, harvesting the crops, bringing them to the truck, bringing them to the processing plant, processing them all the way until someone has to eat them. And, and then if the, if the robots are doing that, then who's eating the food then?

Cause there's no one's needed to do the jobs.

Malcolm Collins: We're basically already there with, with crops. I mean, crops right now is it's one guy on like an [00:28:00] automated system doing what used to be. Some, some.

Simone Collins: There, there's really, really high variance. Some crops are 100 percent handpicked still. Some are to a great extent, depending on the farm.

Completely machine picked and it's really impressive to see some of these machines that are like very very advanced and granular. But yeah, like, yeah, I've seen I've seen some pretty

Speaker 2: interesting ones.

Simone Collins: I love I love that stuff. It's so it's so fun. Yeah, they have one that

Speaker 2: knocks only the green potatoes out as they throw them.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: Oh God, I love that. I love that. But I just, I think the thing is people are so not ready for this and it is going to blindside our society. I want to

Malcolm Collins: talk about women for a second here. What would you do, so we've got two girls right now, what would you be telling a daughter if you were raising one?

Speaker 2: Oh boy, that's interesting. If I was raising, well, how old is she?

Malcolm Collins: Well, you're looking at one of them, and then the other one is not much older.

Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'd be telling them, like, wipe your mouth, I guess, I don't know. But, if she, if she was getting old enough [00:29:00] to, that she was going to be making her own decisions.

Which is I think what you're getting at. Yeah, I think what I would say is I would I would tell her how Men think and i've got something on that in here somewhere I would I would explain to her how the world works how people think what she can expect to be treated like and the reasons for that so that she's Equipped to make the best possible decisions.

I don't know if I'm going to find this thing in time. There it is. There was a video I made a while ago about a young girl displaying a good amount of insight where she was, she was, first of all, sick of her dad saying, oh, boys don't go around boys. And then she realized that he's doing that because he knows what the boys think about her.

So she had a thought about a thought about a thought, which was a higher level of. Yeah. A higher order of thinking than a lot of people her age. And I was like, oh, that's great. And that's the kind of thing that I would be saying. I would be trying to [00:30:00] install that kind of metacognition. I would, I would be saying if, if you show up this way.

The world will react to you this way. It doesn't matter if you like it or not. That's what people's programming is. That's what I did not get taught when I was a kid. My, my parents, yeah, my, my parents and my teachers failed to tell me how the world was going to react to me. It was almost 100%. You can do what you want.

Simone Collins: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What

Speaker 2: a crazy thing to tell someone. That's insane. It doesn't, the world does not agree. It just doesn't agree with you. Oh, I want to be a journalist. Okay. Here's 10.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I, I think one of the things that we, we did a video on the, it hasn't gone live yet. We titled it thought maxing our daughters.

But the question is, how do you one of the, one of, I think the biggest mistakes that people are going to make in raising daughters within this generation is they're like, well, you don't [00:31:00] want to be valued for your body. Right. But the problem is, is that the, the world right now with social media, you know, it's YouTube, it's Twitter, it's et cetera.

And if you're a woman with a following on one of these sites, you are in part valued for your body. Yeah. And if you have. Yeah, if you pathologically develop some hatred of this or fear of this, then you're not going to get in front of a large audience and have an impact.

Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, that's, that's part of, it's kind of a part of what I'm trying to teach people with the whole Ken Wilberg, the whole integral thing, this whole thing here.

That you can't just say, Oh, it's bad to value people for their bodies or it's bad to be valued for your body. That's just like one of the layers of thinking that people do, whether you like it or not. It's just a part of the mind that's on. You have to understand that that's what people are doing and you have to take the good you can get from it and avoid the bad that comes from it.

Whereas I think what you were saying is that [00:32:00] if you get too A verse to that, then you won't be able to function in the online world. Right? Like, if you understand that people are, if you're an attractive young girl, people will part will partially be watching because you are an attractive young girl.

Right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah, it's, and it's, it's something that you're not going to be able to avoid even if you're purely intellectual, like the example I'd use here is like shoe on head shoe on head is like a reasonable intellectual with reasonable ideas that are worth listening to that doesn't mean that part of her audience isn't there because she at one point was an attractive young girl.

Speaker 2: Yeah, but she also isn't like. At least not as far as I've seen. I don't think she does. I don't think she's leaning on it She's not wearing skimpy clothes or anything like that. You know, so she's more like a brett cooper.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah

Speaker 2: Yeah, and that happens everywhere all the time That's that's attractive people which there's fewer men than women But if you're attractive people will look at you more And even babies do that.

So it's just like that's how we're built. So yeah accept it

Malcolm Collins: It's, it's actually a very interesting thing when I think about it for [00:33:00] men, because I think attractive men there's like an audience of intellectual men where you, you need a certain level of buffness to enter it. Like, I'm thinking like your Joe Rogans, your Chris Williamson's, stuff like that, where they're like genuine intellectuals in my book, but like, it's clear that their audience required first a level of physical mastery, which I guess is a level of self care.

Speaker 2: Yeah. A level of, I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.

Malcolm Collins: Well, their level of physical mastery is a level of self mastery. Yes, yes. It demonstrates

Speaker 2: competence, yeah.

Simone Collins: But I think it also signals more to the gender to which they market.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Than the opposite gender. In other words, I think Andrew Tate physically appeals more to men than he does to women.

Yeah. And I think like Hannah Nealman of Ballerina Farms. Physically appeals more to women than

Speaker 2: yeah, I had a I don't know if you guys followed my Content this deeply or this early, but I have [00:34:00] a story that I tell sometimes about that's what happened to me Early in life when people told me you can do and be whatever you want and people should like you for you I didn't really Pay attention or take care of myself.

And I had a physical transformation I lost a lot of weight and built a lot of muscle And this same girl that I liked since I was 11 Suddenly the tables turned and she was into me and I was like, I don't know about that And

Simone Collins: amazing

Speaker 2: yeah, and if people don't understand how how big of a, of a difference that makes until you are one.

And then the other people will just say, Oh yeah. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Malcolm did that to me. Malcolm, Malcolm taught me that people judge you by what you are on the outside. When I was like, it's all about what you are on the inside. And while we were dating with the promise that we'd break up. Cause that was our agreement.

I was going to be single forever. I was excited about it. Yeah. It was like, well, you're not going to achieve your goals in life if you look like you do right now. And so I changed my appearance. Totally. Got a promotion. Complete, like got invited to speak at [00:35:00] events, just complete transformation of my entire career and people who knew me from before and hadn't seen what I looked like after were like, that's not true.

You're not.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I think the problem for you and for women is that women especially get emotionally rewarded for dressing in a way and acting in a way that causes people to think left of them intellectually. So. She was dressing like a hipster, you know, in those sorts of outfits that sort of like are, you know, and, and people were rewarding her and smiling more at her.

Well, I was

Simone Collins: wearing like mini, mini skirts and red fishnet stockings and yeah, like I was not great. Not great.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I get it. Yeah, it's good.

Simone Collins: I don't know though. Like, do, do hyper muscular men also someone get treated

Speaker 2: Yes, I did get treated like a male thot, kind of, when I went from, like, I lost a lot of weight and put on the muscle.

It was really quick. And all of a sudden, there were, like, older [00:36:00] ladies making sex jokes at me, like I used to make at girls when I was really, like, in high school. So, I joined this program, like a spiritual program. And there were like 47 year old ladies saying something about telling me that I should wear a g string or whatever.

I remember jokes like that. Yeah. And so like I did get, I suddenly was getting sexualized by people who I did and did not want attention from and I was like, Oh, that's so that's exact. That's what women are talking about. You get the attention you want and the attention that you got. Okay,

Malcolm Collins: that's fascinating.

That was really interesting. Okay. So the final thought I wanted to end this with or to sort of think about is this AI app that you're creating because I think it's really amazing. for having me. We're building a video game world right now, and one of the settlements that makes it through in the video game world trains an AI on scripture and basically just this is what happens to the Mormon faction.

They basically live in a community where an AI, they go, they ask it what they should do, what they should want. And it's one of the only [00:37:00] factions that seems to be working broadly. And so I'm wondering how you think about people may interact with AI systems like the one you're building. For building purpose and self improvement.

What are your thoughts on that? Cause that's such a weird thing to be happening.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that, I think that if this goes the way I want it to, because I don't really under understand AI that well. And sometimes I get very frustrated with some of them. Like I can't get grok. To get the pictures right sometimes, and it's just like, no, I said without Superman, and it just gives me Superman again.

There, there are things that maybe they'll get fixed in time. I don't know if they're gonna train them to understand language better. What I'm hoping we can do with AI is to like what I'm doing with my life right now is I'm telling young people what no one told me when I was young. It would have really helped me if someone could have said, Hey, girls do this and bosses do that.

And the And, you know, the [00:38:00] people don't respect you if you do this and that. And it would it would have cleared a lot up for me. If a I can can do that for people individually and they can interact with the system that like knows everything that humanity does. It knows all of our phenotypes and all the genotypes and all of the minds that it builds and it can test your personality and say, well, if you're like this, then that's one of the things that we're doing with self max.

We have the big five. We're gonna put other personality tests on it. So the A. I. uses your personality to respond to you. So it says this solution might work better for you because you're this personality type. I think if that sort of understanding of the human condition can get sophisticated enough in a I, then it will be able to lead people to the right decisions.

So there's just less mystery. And figuring things out. You still have to do it. Nobody can do it for you because that's just like the physical nature of the world. You have to do it yourself or you can't [00:39:00] be what you want to be if you don't do the things it takes to be it. But I think that the best case scenario is that AI becomes really good at separating the wheat from the chaff.

So, like, here's what you should listen to about Andrew Tate, and here's what you shouldn't. Like, this is, if you do this, this is what it's gonna get you. It worked for him, but that's very rare. And most of the time that people think like that, they end up in jail for dealing drugs or whatever. So, it should be able to To meet people where they are, tell them about what they're thinking, why they're thinking it, make it clear to them.

That's one of the things that I'm really good at. I used to do a personal life coaching sessions. I might go back to that. And during the sessions, I was very able to. Take whatever it was that people were experiencing and show them. Here's what you're going for there that you didn't know. Oh, yeah, that's it.

I either need to learn how to do that better or to quit that because that's unhealthy or something like that. But it can reveal people to [00:40:00] themselves when you do that. And then also. When they become conscious of that, then they can make more and more choices about their behavior. And then it can also tell them about how the world works, which I have absolutely no experience in because I've been inside reading books for 20 years.

Malcolm Collins: That is fantastic. Well, it's been a joy having you on. I really encourage Our watchers to go check your channel, go check this app. Where can they find out this? It's called

Speaker 2: it's called self max. ai. I think I wrote it down here and I'll write it down. Self max, S E L F M a X dot a I. If you type that in, I'm pretty sure it's the first thing you're going to get.

And we're building it, upgrading it. People are saying they like it so far. And I'm

Simone Collins: excited about that. I like that. We, when we read the pragmatist guide to life. The biggest thing was like, all right, all right, all right. So you've like given me a guide to like figuring this out by myself, but like now, like, what do I do?

Like, can you just tell me what to do? And I love that this is like, all right. Well, based on like, we're going to sort of take a Bayesian approach using [00:41:00] like the data you've given us. Here's your best path forward. Just a lot of people really would love that. I think that's, that's, I, I kind of wanna check it out now.

But yeah, your channel's so great. Even like, thank you. If you're, if you're part of the, like 10% of our channel that's female, you should also check it out. Like it's really, really interesting. Yeah. And to, to the point of like, you could be able to think from the perspective of other people. This is a great way for you to see.

In very concrete terms, the dynamics that make life really hard for dudes. So, yeah, anyway, really love your work. Thank you so much for coming on. All right. Yeah.