Was Barack Obama America's last "realist" president? Was he even a realist at all? Emma Ashford of the Atlantic Council joins Shadi and Damir to answer these questions and more. They also discuss democracy promotion, whether to confront China, and why Shadi supported Bernie's candidacy even though Shadi is an interventionist.

Required Reading:

"Reality Check #1: Build cooperation cycles, not security spirals," by Emma Ashford (Atlantic Council)

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Episode 48: Who Are the Real Realists?