Today’s episode is with Phaedra Ellis-Lamkins, co-founder and CEO of Promise, a modern government payment solution.

In today’s conversation, Phaedra explores the ins and outs of selling a product into government. Phaedra pulls back the curtain of how she and the Promise team tackle the extra-long sales cycles, navigate layers of subcontractors, and convince risk-averse decision-makers to take a chance on a startup.

We also take a step back to traverse the winding road that led to Promise in its current form. Like plenty of founders before her, Phaedra had to pivot her way into product-market fit. She explains the signals that the first iteration of the product, a bail reform platform, wasn’t going to work as she’d hoped. She then doles out lessons for other founders in the process of pivoting.

You can follow Phaedra on Twitter at @phaedrael

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You can email us questions directly at review@firstround.com or follow us on Twitter @ twitter.com/firstround and twitter.com/brettberson