Maybe Trump doesn’t care if the economy tanks—maybe he believes he can play it all to his advantage. And maybe, through a lot of pain, this is the only way America’s going to learn its lesson.

Guest: Jonathan Last, editor of The Bulwark

Want more What Next? Join Slate Plus to unlock full, ad-free access to What Next and all your other favorite Slate podcasts. You can subscribe directly from the What Next show page on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Or, visit slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen.

Podcast production by Elena Schwartz, Paige Osburn, Anna Phillips, Madeline Ducharme, Ethan Oberman, and Rob Gunther.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What Next | The Upside Of Tariffs