The Human Risk Podcast Pav Gill on Whistleblowing that works
Feb 1, 2025
01:11:56
How do we create systems that encourage whistleblowing without incentivizing malicious reporting? Should we reward whistleblowers financially? Why is closure important, both for whistleblowers and the organisations they are whistleblowing on?
Episode Summary
On this episode, I speak with Pav Gill, the whistleblower behind the Wirecard scandal and former General Counsel for Wirecard’s Asia Pacific operations.
But this conversation isn’t about Wirecard. Instead, we explore the broader dynamics of whistleblowing—beyond high-profile scandals—focusing on the personal and organizational challenges of speaking up. Pav shares insights into what happens after a whistleblower comes forward, why some struggle to move on while others thrive, and how organizations can encourage reporting without creating perverse incentives.
We discuss the psychological toll of whistleblowing, the role of incentives in encouraging disclosures, and the importance of closure—not just for individuals but for entire organizations.
Pav also introduces the Confide Platform, his end-to-end whistleblowing platform designed to improve the process for both whistleblowers and companies. With experience as both a whistleblower and a compliance professional, he offers a unique perspective on making whistleblowing work for all stakeholders.
Whether you work in compliance, risk, legal, or HR or are simply interested in ethical business practices, this episode will provide fresh insights into a complex topic.
Guest Biography
Pav Gill is the founder and CEO of The Confide Platform, a whistleblowing tool that streamlines the reporting and management of corporate misconduct. He gained prominence as the whistleblower behind the Wirecard scandal, exposing a multi-billion-dollar fraud that ultimately led to the company’s collapse.
At the time, Pav was General Counsel for Wirecard’s Asia Pacific operations. His decision to speak out was instrumental in bringing the case to light.
Beyond his whistleblowing experience, Pav is a legal and compliance expert with deep knowledge of corporate governance, risk management, and regulatory compliance.
Before founding the Confide Platform, he held leadership roles, providing legal and strategic counsel in high-stakes corporate environments. His insights into whistleblowing—shaped by both personal experience and professional expertise—make him a leading voice on ethical corporate behaviour and whistleblower protections.
📌 Pav on LinkedIn: Pav Gill 📌
The Confide Platform: confideplatform.com
AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00:00 - Introduction to Whistleblowing Beyond Wirecard (2 min)
Christian introduces the episode, explaining that this discussion moves beyond the Wirecard scandal to explore the deeper dynamics of whistleblowing. The conversation examines the challenges of speaking up, the psychological toll, and how to encourage ethical disclosures while avoiding perverse incentives.
00:02:42 - Pav Gill’s Journey After Wirecard (4 min)
Pav shares what he has been working on since exposing Wirecard, including founding Confide, an end-to-end whistleblowing platform. He explains why most reporting systems fail to address both the logistical and psychological aspects of whistleblowing.
00:06:25 - Why Whistleblowing Is More Than Just a Hotline (7 min)
Christian and Pav discuss why many organizations see whistleblowing as a simple logistical issue—install a hotline, job done. Pav explains why it’s much more complex, requiring cultural shifts, psychological support, and credible processes that give employees confidence to report misconduct.
00:13:14 - The Fine Line Between Whistleblowing and Malicious Reporting (6 min)
Pav challenges the traditional narrative of whistleblowers as heroes versus corporations as villains. He highlights real cases where people use reporting mechanisms for leverage rather than ethical reasons and explores how organizations can differentiate between genuine concerns and bad-faith claims.
00:19:30 - The Role of Incentives in Whistleblowing (5 min)
We examine the controversial topic of financial rewards for whistleblowers. Pav advocates for rewarding genuine whistleblowers who suffer retaliation but warns against systems that create "honeypots" encouraging opportunistic reporting. The discussion highlights global inconsistencies in whistleblower reward schemes.
00:24:40 - Why Recognition Matters Beyond Financial Rewards (6 min)
Pav emphasizes that whistleblowers need more than just monetary compensation—they need recognition. He discusses how official acknowledgments, career support, and public appreciation can make a difference in how society perceives those who speak up.
00:30:00 - The Stigma of Being a Whistleblower and Career Consequences (7 min)
We discuss why many whistleblowers struggle to find jobs post-disclosure. Pav suggests that companies should rethink how they view whistleblowers, treating them as valuable truth-tellers rather than troublemakers.
00:37:00 - Should Companies Hire Whistleblowers? (5 min)
Christian and Pav explore whether companies should actively hire former whistleblowers, similar to how the cybersecurity industry recruits ex-hackers. We discuss how organizations can harness whistleblowers’ skills while ensuring a constructive work environment.
00:44:00 - Corporate Closure: How Organizations Handle Reports (6 min)
Pav highlights how companies often prioritize moving on from whistleblower cases without fully addressing the underlying issues. We discuss how organizations can achieve proper closure—for both the whistleblower and the company—without leaving unresolved tensions.
00:50:00 - Why Some Whistleblowers Become Angry and Bitter (7 min)
Pav explains why some whistleblowers become embittered, often due to a lack of justice, continued corporate wrongdoing, or personal retaliation. He suggests that structured post-whistleblowing support could help individuals move on positively.
00:57:00 - Lessons for Compliance and Leadership (5 min)
The conversation turns to what compliance leaders and business executives can learn from whistleblowing cases. Pav underscores the importance of designing systems that align with how people actually behave, rather than how companies wish they would behave.
01:02:00 - The Confide Platform: Building a Better Whistleblowing System (5 min)
Pav explains how The Confide Platform seeks to fix the flaws in traditional whistleblowing platforms by ensuring accountability, psychological safety, and transparency. He discusses the platform’s features, such as audit trails and dynamic case management.
01:07:00 - Final Thoughts: The Future of Whistleblowing (3 min)
Pav reflects on his journey, the lessons he has learned, and his mission to improve corporate ethics. We close with a discussion on how organizations can create environments where people feel safe speaking up.
Related Podcast Episodes
📌 Dan McCrum on Wirecard – Insights from his book Money Men 🎧 👉 Listen here
📌 Zelda Perkins on NDAs – Her campaign to limit their use after breaking her NDA to expose Harvey Weinstein 🎧 👉 Listen here
📌 Professor Ludmila Praslova on The Canary Code – How improving conditions for neurodiverse employees benefits everyone 🎧 👉 Listen here
Episode Summary
On this episode, I speak with Pav Gill, the whistleblower behind the Wirecard scandal and former General Counsel for Wirecard’s Asia Pacific operations.
But this conversation isn’t about Wirecard. Instead, we explore the broader dynamics of whistleblowing—beyond high-profile scandals—focusing on the personal and organizational challenges of speaking up. Pav shares insights into what happens after a whistleblower comes forward, why some struggle to move on while others thrive, and how organizations can encourage reporting without creating perverse incentives.
We discuss the psychological toll of whistleblowing, the role of incentives in encouraging disclosures, and the importance of closure—not just for individuals but for entire organizations.
Pav also introduces the Confide Platform, his end-to-end whistleblowing platform designed to improve the process for both whistleblowers and companies. With experience as both a whistleblower and a compliance professional, he offers a unique perspective on making whistleblowing work for all stakeholders.
Whether you work in compliance, risk, legal, or HR or are simply interested in ethical business practices, this episode will provide fresh insights into a complex topic.
Guest Biography
Pav Gill is the founder and CEO of The Confide Platform, a whistleblowing tool that streamlines the reporting and management of corporate misconduct. He gained prominence as the whistleblower behind the Wirecard scandal, exposing a multi-billion-dollar fraud that ultimately led to the company’s collapse.
At the time, Pav was General Counsel for Wirecard’s Asia Pacific operations. His decision to speak out was instrumental in bringing the case to light.
Beyond his whistleblowing experience, Pav is a legal and compliance expert with deep knowledge of corporate governance, risk management, and regulatory compliance.
Before founding the Confide Platform, he held leadership roles, providing legal and strategic counsel in high-stakes corporate environments. His insights into whistleblowing—shaped by both personal experience and professional expertise—make him a leading voice on ethical corporate behaviour and whistleblower protections.
📌 Pav on LinkedIn: Pav Gill 📌
The Confide Platform: confideplatform.com
AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00:00 - Introduction to Whistleblowing Beyond Wirecard (2 min)
Christian introduces the episode, explaining that this discussion moves beyond the Wirecard scandal to explore the deeper dynamics of whistleblowing. The conversation examines the challenges of speaking up, the psychological toll, and how to encourage ethical disclosures while avoiding perverse incentives.
00:02:42 - Pav Gill’s Journey After Wirecard (4 min)
Pav shares what he has been working on since exposing Wirecard, including founding Confide, an end-to-end whistleblowing platform. He explains why most reporting systems fail to address both the logistical and psychological aspects of whistleblowing.
00:06:25 - Why Whistleblowing Is More Than Just a Hotline (7 min)
Christian and Pav discuss why many organizations see whistleblowing as a simple logistical issue—install a hotline, job done. Pav explains why it’s much more complex, requiring cultural shifts, psychological support, and credible processes that give employees confidence to report misconduct.
00:13:14 - The Fine Line Between Whistleblowing and Malicious Reporting (6 min)
Pav challenges the traditional narrative of whistleblowers as heroes versus corporations as villains. He highlights real cases where people use reporting mechanisms for leverage rather than ethical reasons and explores how organizations can differentiate between genuine concerns and bad-faith claims.
00:19:30 - The Role of Incentives in Whistleblowing (5 min)
We examine the controversial topic of financial rewards for whistleblowers. Pav advocates for rewarding genuine whistleblowers who suffer retaliation but warns against systems that create "honeypots" encouraging opportunistic reporting. The discussion highlights global inconsistencies in whistleblower reward schemes.
00:24:40 - Why Recognition Matters Beyond Financial Rewards (6 min)
Pav emphasizes that whistleblowers need more than just monetary compensation—they need recognition. He discusses how official acknowledgments, career support, and public appreciation can make a difference in how society perceives those who speak up.
00:30:00 - The Stigma of Being a Whistleblower and Career Consequences (7 min)
We discuss why many whistleblowers struggle to find jobs post-disclosure. Pav suggests that companies should rethink how they view whistleblowers, treating them as valuable truth-tellers rather than troublemakers.
00:37:00 - Should Companies Hire Whistleblowers? (5 min)
Christian and Pav explore whether companies should actively hire former whistleblowers, similar to how the cybersecurity industry recruits ex-hackers. We discuss how organizations can harness whistleblowers’ skills while ensuring a constructive work environment.
00:44:00 - Corporate Closure: How Organizations Handle Reports (6 min)
Pav highlights how companies often prioritize moving on from whistleblower cases without fully addressing the underlying issues. We discuss how organizations can achieve proper closure—for both the whistleblower and the company—without leaving unresolved tensions.
00:50:00 - Why Some Whistleblowers Become Angry and Bitter (7 min)
Pav explains why some whistleblowers become embittered, often due to a lack of justice, continued corporate wrongdoing, or personal retaliation. He suggests that structured post-whistleblowing support could help individuals move on positively.
00:57:00 - Lessons for Compliance and Leadership (5 min)
The conversation turns to what compliance leaders and business executives can learn from whistleblowing cases. Pav underscores the importance of designing systems that align with how people actually behave, rather than how companies wish they would behave.
01:02:00 - The Confide Platform: Building a Better Whistleblowing System (5 min)
Pav explains how The Confide Platform seeks to fix the flaws in traditional whistleblowing platforms by ensuring accountability, psychological safety, and transparency. He discusses the platform’s features, such as audit trails and dynamic case management.
01:07:00 - Final Thoughts: The Future of Whistleblowing (3 min)
Pav reflects on his journey, the lessons he has learned, and his mission to improve corporate ethics. We close with a discussion on how organizations can create environments where people feel safe speaking up.
Related Podcast Episodes
📌 Dan McCrum on Wirecard – Insights from his book Money Men 🎧 👉 Listen here
📌 Zelda Perkins on NDAs – Her campaign to limit their use after breaking her NDA to expose Harvey Weinstein 🎧 👉 Listen here
📌 Professor Ludmila Praslova on The Canary Code – How improving conditions for neurodiverse employees benefits everyone 🎧 👉 Listen here