408. Jordan Peterson & Sam Harris Try to Find Something They Agree On
Dec 25, 2023
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In a captivating dialogue, Sam Harris, a renowned author and philosopher, joins to explore deep questions of morality and human nature. They delve into the complexities of good and evil, examining how extremism can twist beliefs. The conversation highlights the impacts of social media on our moral fabric and the importance of routines like meditation in finding calm. Harris shares insights on navigating societal tensions and the role of personal experience in shaping our understanding of ethical dilemmas. A thought-provoking exchange that challenges listeners to reconsider their perspective on morality.
The need for an objective foundation for moral values and the recognition of the distinction between good and evil in response to relativistic perspectives.
The influence of ideologies and dogmas in shaping behavior, leading to unethical actions even in otherwise normal individuals.
The impact of false beliefs, particularly those connected to religious ideas, in motivating individuals to commit morally reprehensible acts.
The complexities in defining a higher good as a moral reference point, balancing the need for a moral standard against the potential for misuse and moral corruption.
Deep dives
The Motive for Objective Moral Values
The podcast episode begins with a discussion on the speaker's motive to establish an objective foundation for moral values. The speaker emphasizes the need to differentiate between good and evil, particularly in response to the relativistic perspective often found in postmodernist philosophies. The concern arises when people, especially on the left, fail to recognize the distinction between good and evil, particularly regarding extremist religious ideologies like the Taliban. The speaker argues for the existence of objective moral values based on the impact of conscious experiences and the suffering and well-being of sentient beings. The goal is to find a sense of objective morality that aligns with scientific understanding and addresses the consequences of various belief systems.
The Influence of Systems of Ideas
The discussion delves into the influence of systems of ideas in shaping behavior and motivating individuals towards both ethical and unethical actions. It is noted that certain ideologies and dogmas can attract and possess otherwise normal individuals, causing them to behave in pathological ways. The podcast episode highlights the notion that evil actions can be perpetrated by individuals who are not necessarily psychopaths but are influenced by distorted beliefs and ideas. The speaker argues that ideas possessing an archetypal evil quality can motivate individuals towards unethical behavior, often leading to the highest forms of moral justification for those actions. This highlights the complex relationship between religious and ethical beliefs.
Evil Acts and Possession of Ideas
The podcast explores the notion that evil acts can be carried out by individuals who are not inherently evil. The speaker highlights how false beliefs, particularly those linked to religious ideas, can possess otherwise normal people and motivate them to commit acts that may be considered morally reprehensible. The discussion touches upon the distinction between intentions and outcomes, where individuals may engage in seemingly compassionate acts while causing immense harm due to their beliefs. The influence of religious framings and expectations is discussed, underscoring how certain ideological systems potentiate and reinforce unethical behavior even in the absence of ill will.
Complexities of Higher Good and Moral Reference Points
The podcast addresses the complexities that arise when considering the concept of a higher good as a moral reference point. The speaker acknowledges the tension between the need for a higher moral standard to contrast against evil acts and the potential for the highest moral claims to be used to justify malevolent actions. It is noted that the distortion of moral compasses can occur when individuals believe their actions are morally justifiable based on higher ideals, even if those actions result in harm or suffering. The discussion highlights the challenges of finding an objective moral framework that can guide ethical behavior while minimizing the potential for misuse and moral corruption.
The Importance of Recognizing Directional Good and Evil
It is important to recognize the existence of a higher good and the implications of moving towards better possibilities. There is a need for a universal conversation that goes beyond sectarian cultural boundaries and aims to explore deeper truths and wisdom. Moral outrage and the concept of evil can fuel this conversation, but it is also crucial to understand that evil may stem from ignorance rather than inherent malevolence.
The Need for Conversations on Ethics and Spirituality
There is a necessity for open-ended discussions about ethics, spirituality, and scientific truths that transcend cultural boundaries. Such conversations should rely on evidence, argumentation, and a recognition that our knowledge is provisional and subject to revision. The world's religions, while offering insights, should not be seen as the final authority, and a comprehensive approach should be taken to address the challenging ethical and moral complexities of our time.
Exploring the Nature of Consciousness and the Unknown
Consciousness is a fundamental aspect of existence that cannot be easily dismissed or understood as an illusion. It is the ground truth of our experiences, and any illusion would still be a form of consciousness. As we navigate new frontiers like artificial intelligence and advanced neuroscience, it is crucial to confront the ethical dilemmas and uncertainties that arise from our evolving understanding of consciousness.
A Perspective on Evil: Wisdom and Ignorance
The concept of evil can be viewed in relativity to ignorance and lack of wisdom. Evil acts are often rooted in ignorance rather than pure malevolence. Considering the potential for change and growth, it becomes important to recognize that evil individuals may be victims of circumstances, ignorance, or unfortunate biology. Thus, addressing and ameliorating this ignorance could offer transformation and redemption.
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with author, philosopher, and app developer Sam Harris. They discuss the benefits of routine meditation, deleting X (twitter), the issue of defining a Higher Good, the reality of evil, and the difficulty in establishing a shared morality.
Sam Harris is the author of five New York Times best sellers. His books include The End of Faith, Letter to a Christian Nation, The Moral Landscape, Free Will, Lying, Waking Up, and Islam and the Future of Tolerance (with Maajid Nawaz). The End of Faith won the 2005 PEN Award for Nonfiction. His writing and public lectures cover a wide range of topics—neuroscience, moral philosophy, religion, meditation practice, human violence, rationality—but generally focus on how a growing understanding of ourselves and the world is changing our sense of how we should live.
- Links -
For Sam Harris:
30 FREE days on the Waking Up app https://www.wakingup.com/peterson
Website and “Making Sense Podcast” https://www.samharris.org/
On X https://twitter.com/MakingSenseHQ
On Instagram https://www.instagram.com/samharrisorg/?hl=en
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