This week, David Plotz, Emily Bazelon, and John Dickerson New York’s massive fraud case against the Trumps; Ron DeSantis’ treatments of asylum seekers; and Dahlia Lithwick’s Lady Justice.

Here are some notes and references from this week’s show:

Trading Barriers: Immigration and the Remaking of Globalization, Margaret E. Peters

Lady Justice: Women, the Law, and the Battle to Save America, by Dahlia Lithwick

Ruth Igielnik for The New York Times: “Trump Support Remains Unmoved by Investigations, Poll Finds”

Here are this week’s chatters:

John: It was supposed to be...The Philosophy of Modern Song, by Bob Dylan

Emily: Somebody Somewhere; Reservation Dogs

David: The Space Force Anthem

Listener chatter from Danny Edgel: Frank Vaisvilas and Sarah Volpenhein for The Green Bay Press-Gazette: “Oneida Nation Steps In To Defend Indian Child Welfare Act In Us Supreme Court Case”

For this week’s Slate Plus bonus segment Emily, David, and John discuss the vacation of Adnan Syed’s murder conviction.

Tweet us your questions and chatters @SlateGabfest or email us at gabfest@slate.com. (Messages may be quoted by name unless the writer stipulates otherwise.)

Podcast production by Cheyna Roth.

Research by Bridgette Dunlap.

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1172: Power and Powerlessness by Keith Wilson on Understanding How to Attain True Power in Relationships