Property Management Growth with DoorGrow DGS 278: Unlocking Team Potential: The Keys to Engagement, Resilience, and High Performance
When moving from being a solopreneur to having a team, a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with hiring high-quality team members, creating accountability, and streamlining processes.
In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with award-winning coach and author Kon Apostolopoulos to talk all about unlocking your team’s potential.
You’ll Learn[04:16] Hiring for Competance
[12:48] Leadership and Building a Team
[29:19] Developing Team Members
[49:42] Tough Love as a Business Owner
Tweetables”They say the two most important days in your life are the day you come into this world and the day you figure out why.”
“They all have their strategies, their business plans, but one thing for sure is that if they don't have the right people in place to execute those plans, they're not even worth the paper they're written on.”
“If they're hiring for competence, it's probably a step up, because in most cases, people are hiring for a pulse.”
“You can teach people the technical skills. You can't teach attitude. You can't teach certain behaviors. You can't teach integrity.”
Resources Transcript[00:00:00] Kon: When we are appreciated, we always give more than what is expected of us. So when you are looking at it, build your team around that principle. Show people that you value them. Don't just say, you know what, you get a paycheck, don't you? This is why I brought you on. Do your damn job.
[00:00:16] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers, love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow.
[00:01:18] Now let's get into the show.
[00:01:21] All right. I, my guest today is coach Kon. So Kon, how do you say your last name? I want to make sure I don't mess it up.
[00:01:29] Kon: Wow. Well, first of all, thanks for having me, Jason. Last name is Apostolopoulos. It's as simple as it looks.
[00:01:37] Jason: Man, that is fun to say. Apostolopoulos.
[00:01:39] Kon: It rolls off the tongue.
[00:01:40] Jason: Yeah. The closest thing that might be as fun was the Snuffleupagus.
[00:01:45] Kon: It's inspired from that.
[00:01:47] Jason: Okay. All right. We'll go, you know, all great ideas have an origin. All right. So Kon, we're going to be chatting a little bit today about the keys to engagement, resilience, high performance, unlocking team potential.
[00:02:02] So before we get into that, I'd love to get a little bit of background on you. How did you get into doing coaching and you know, kind of share your origin story.
[00:02:12] Kon: Wow. Okay. So let's kind of take a look at this. First of all, I'll start with one of my favorite sayings. Because I do feel blessed.
[00:02:19] It is the season for that kind of a feeling. You know, they say the two most important days in your life are the day you come into this world and the day you figure out why. And so to me, I have always gravitated towards being a coach, being a teacher, being a leader, stepping up and taking responsibility.
[00:02:38] And so that's kind of shaped my life. Being the firstborn in a Greek household and the firstborn male at that. It's one of those situations where, Inevitably, you're thrust into that role, but I gravitated towards it, and I found myself, regardless of which industry I've been working in, everything from the military to cruise ships, from restaurants to call centers, from construction to coaching little kids' soccer, I've always been in a situation where I found myself in the role of coach, teacher, leader. You know, I've worked for large corporations. I've had my share of corporate where I've cut my teeth and I've learned a lot of the business secrets and the things that I needed to get. And in the last 12 years, I've hung my own single shingle and been in a situation where I've been able to help clients and transfer three decades of knowledge of managing talent, of being able to build engaged and resilient teams and helping them now achieve their goals.
[00:03:34] And the way I do that is I explained to people that most of the companies that I work with have their business plans very much like the audience that we have here. They all have their strategies their business plans. But one thing for sure is that if they don't have the right people in place to execute those plans, they're not even worth the paper they're written on. And so to me, that's where I come in and sometimes that involves providing workshops to build competence. Sometimes that involves individual or group coaching to build commitment. Sometimes that's speaking at events for them to be able to get everybody on the same page. And ultimately that may involve helping them build the systems that they need so every dollar that they spend on their people is a dollar well spent.
[00:04:14] Jason: Got it. Okay. Now I think a lot of times that the challenge I see in a lot of companies is they're bringing in, it's often people are hiring just based on skill. That's the thing they're looking at is like, are they willing to do this job for this pay? Instead of looking for people that fit their values, fit the culture, have the right personality fit to actually be able to succeed in the role.
[00:04:38] And so I call those things, the three fits. What have you seen related to this?
[00:04:42] Kon: When people go out and start hiring Jason, they typically do it out of need, and a lot of times they've let it go for so long that it becomes a desperation. If they're hiring for competence, it's probably a step up, because in most cases, people are hiring for a pulse.
[00:04:56] They're trying to throw a body at a spot, and that's a desperate place to be in, unfortunately. Hiring process, the selection process, should be an ongoing thing. When you're looking at making sure that you have the right people on your team. That's an ongoing process to me. That's tending to your garden year round, to making sure that you have the right people in place year round.
[00:05:17] The mantra that I teach my people is a three part piece, just like you were mentioning earlier. It's hire hard, train smart, manage easy. And to me that means basically being very picky about who I bring on my team. It's easy for people or it's easier for people to look at, do they have the skills? Because that's an yes or no answer most of the time, especially if you do it right. But what they don't realize is that you can teach people the technical skills. You can't teach attitude. You can't teach certain behaviors. You can't teach integrity. You're bringing somebody in your team in their thirties.
[00:05:50] If you have to teach them how to be honest, that's too late in the game.
[00:05:54] Jason: Yes.
[00:05:55] Kon: So hire for the attitude, like you were talking about the things that are harder to teach, and then you can teach them smartly about the business that you want. If you have a right person in the right spot, they can do wonders.
[00:06:09] Jason: Yeah, I've noticed this. I've noticed this as well. One of the things I've noticed is I call it the process myth. I see a lot of businesses, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs go through this journey of graduating from solopreneur to having a team, right? And that's usually one of the most painful transitions they go through.
[00:06:25] It's because they have no clue how to do the hiring correctly. And they're hiring the way a solopreneur sort of thinks. And they're usually hiring based on what they think the business needs. Like you said, out of need, maybe they graduate to desperation. Maybe they graduate to competence, as you said, but at that stage, they usually believe the process myth.
[00:06:43] I've run into this a lot where they think they just need better processes. If they just had better processes, their team would actually perform well. Like, I just need to micromanage them more. I need more KPIs. I need more metrics. And what I've noticed is, this weird dichotomy, I've noticed that in companies that have great culture and they have a great team, they have great people, but they even have shitty processes, they still perform well, even without great process documentation, but I've seen companies that have like process documentation, like crazy, and they focus on this heavily, but they don't have the right people. And they're never able to perform well. There's no amount of process documentation or micromanaging or controls that can make a mediocre team with maybe the wrong attitude or wrong culture fit or wrong values to perform well.
[00:07:35] Kon: No, I agree with you there. When you look at why people try to heavily process things, it's because they don't feel confident in people's decision making and abilities. They tried to legislate everything. They tried to create a way. We used to have a saying that, you know, every time you think you idiot proof something with a process, they come up with better idiots.
[00:07:55] And that's a situation where you have to be very careful. You put a good person in a bad process, the process is going to win. So you have to be very careful because when we evolve this piece and we take it to its natural conclusion, which is why do we hire good people or try to find good people?
[00:08:12] Why do we try to create processes that can produce results? It's to get performance. It's to increase performance, to become more predictably good. That's ultimately what we're doing. Performance is about results. When you look at your metrics that you were talking about, you're a pro, you do this and you know exactly what you're trying to do.
[00:08:31] You have a methodology, you have a way of doing things, you have a philosophy about how you go about things because you know it works and you know it works well enough for you and for others that you're comfortable going out and sharing that message with others. Well, when you talk about performance, performance happens at three different dimensions.
[00:08:50] Think about it like a Venn diagram, three overlapping circles. One is organizationally. How are we set up? How are we set up? Our culture our vision, our messages, our values, all of those things that we want to set ourselves up with. And then you have the process. How do things hand off from one person to the next?
[00:09:10] What does the customer journey look like? What does the experience with us look like? How do we engage with each other? And then ultimately, it's the individual level. Do we have the right people on the right seat on the bus going in the right direction? Do they have the skills, knowledge, ability, attitudes that we're looking for to get things done?
[00:09:29] So when people say, we're struggling to improve our performance, they automatically Only look at one, maybe two of those areas, not realizing that you need all three of those to hit in order to be at optimal level, when you've reached your peak in your performance, all three of those things are in place.
[00:09:47] You've organized the team. Well, you've got your systems in place and you've hired the right people.
[00:09:52] Jason: Yeah, I love this. You know, they say all truth gravitates towards itself, you know, so to speak. And so I actually draw a Venn diagram for clients and they teach them a framework called the three fits and your organization, I would just call culture, this is, do they share your values? Is there alignment there? Because otherwise you'll never be able to trust them. So you want one offload to them and then you always want to micromanage them. And then for process, I usually call that a skill fit. And the question there is, do they have the intellectual capacity to be able to develop the skill or do they already possess it? And that's the one that maybe the needle can be moved on right like you had mentioned they could maybe be trained, but some people are untrainable. They just don't have the intellectual capacity for that particular role. They just won't get there.
[00:10:38] You can train and you'll just demoralize yourself, right? And then as then when you mentioned kind of people this is where I look at the personality fit. Are they the right personality for the role? Not everybody can be great or enjoy doing cold calling. Not everybody could be great or enjoy doing accounting, right?
[00:10:57] And that means that they would love doing the role if they're the right personality fit, which means you don't have to motivate them. You don't have to try and push them to do it. And they, if they don't have that, they'll just never be great. And so I love this. Like it's always validating to see alignment when somebody's kind of graduated to this knowledge set on their own and see that, Hey, we both kind of arrived at a similar conclusion.
[00:11:22] Kon: So, well, the truth is pretty universal and that's how we get there. We each discovered in our own way and application, but even with my company is called Fresh Biz Solutions and the the origin of the name and the philosophy behind that name is that I've worked, as I mentioned, in very diverse industries across continents, across countries, across boundaries.
[00:11:45] And what I found is people are people. The needs are fairly universal. And so something, a process, an idea, a solution that works well in one industry, when you take it, look at it, dust it off, repurpose it, repackage it, it can work just as well in another industry. Why? Because you're dealing with people.
[00:12:05] You're dealing with principles that are universal. And so, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. There is a need for us to find what works and continue to apply it. In different situations.
[00:12:17] Jason: Absolutely. And you know, my personal sort of mission statement is to inspire others to love true principles. I love figuring out what works and sharing it with other people.
[00:12:25] That's just fun for me. I would do that for free for fun. And yeah, so, so I get that. And yeah, there's, you know, a whole business book might be just written about one principle, you know, and there's that one nugget that you can pull out of it. But yeah if, you know, as I'm always seeking for those principles and those ideas, I'm then able to share and benefit others and it can be applied to a variety of different situations.
[00:12:48] Yeah. Love that. So how do people go about doing this? It's like, usually entrepreneurs are very, you know, focused on just hiring based on as you said, need, desperation, competence. How do you graduate them through this?
[00:13:03] Kon: So when we look at the process, I mean, we, when solopreneurs graduate, like you said, when you have, when you've been working on your own for a long time and you decide to bring on team members, one of the mistakes that we make is that we think that everybody is motivated the same way we are. Everybody sees the same vision that we do.
[00:13:20] And that's just not the case. Yeah. We don't have that luxury. There's not enough people there that automatically will instinctively know what you're working on and really align themselves. Most of the time you have to do some connection of the dots for them. You have to explain to them why you're doing what you're doing and how they fit into this.
[00:13:39] This is part of my engagement model that I talk about in my new book, The Engagement Blueprint. And the principles here are universal, whether it's one person or 1000 on your team. You can look at it and say the same thing. The way to understand this is that when you are leading a team, you're bringing people onto your team.
[00:13:57] You're developing them. You're aligning them. What are you trying to do? You're trying to amplify the reach that you have as an individual. You're trying to get more done through your team, but through your team is the key because you need the voluntary contribution of these people. They need to want to do this.
[00:14:13] Otherwise, it's a slog. It's a heavy lift to constantly micromanage people That's where the heavy processing comes in. You're chasing them around and the property trying to figure out where are they on where they supposed to? Be are they on their computer? Are they? responding to the needs?
[00:14:29] How are they dealing with my clients? You're constantly living on edge and you're in fear and uncertainty all the time. My methodology is all about taking the uncertainty out of that and making sure that when you invest in your people, you know you're going to get a return on that investment. You know that basically they are an extension of you.
[00:14:49] Now, the way to go about it is to understand that there are four key drivers of engagement for people. I mean, I've done my homework, I've spent almost two years researching the topic, talked to some pretty smart people across the globe, and pulled together 30 years of experience looking at this. And the four drivers start, first and foremost, with the need that we all have to feel valued.
[00:15:10] When we are appreciated, we always give more than what is expected of us. So when you are looking at it, build your team around that principle. Show people that you value them. Don't just say, you know what, you get a paycheck, don't you? This is why I brought you on. Do your damn job. It's easy to say that.
[00:15:28] Jason: Yeah, there's a lot of bosses that think because they grew up sort of in that culture and they, it's kind of the dinosaur boss that says, "well, I pay you, so just do your work," like it's very transactional.
[00:15:40] Kon: Correct. And when it's transactional, you lose so much because people will only do up to a certain point and then you have to keep telling them what is part of that transaction.
[00:15:49] So. When people are appreciated though, they will continue to find ways to support and help you and do more. When you realize that it's all about that discretionary effort, engagement is about discretionary effort, giving that little bit extra because you feel first and foremost valued. And the way you do that, I mean, here are some ideas that Our audience can go out and do right now.
[00:16:13] First and foremost, think about how you can create an environment that is safe for your people. Physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically. I mean, if you're in a situation where you have people out there physically doing work, they're climbing up to clear gutters to do certain things, make sure the environment is safe.
[00:16:32] Set a protocol so people can feel safe. Emotionally, if you're in a meeting, make sure that people feel comfortable telling you the ugly truth sometimes, the information that you need to make decisions. If people feel like there'll be chastised or reprimanded for telling you the truth, those stops sharing that information with you, and you will lose opportunities there.
[00:16:52] Make sure that people feel that you appreciate them or that they can bring their whole self to work because if they can bring their whole self to work, they'll bring their best self to work. And then ultimately, even if you only have five minutes a week to spend with each one of your people, make sure that those five minutes, you're present, give them your attention.
[00:17:13] I mean, these are simple ways that when you ask somebody, "how are you doing?" You pause enough to get the answer to that. That tells people you value them and then say, thank you. You know what? I really appreciate the fact that you treat this property like it's your own, that you take care of our guests, that you take care of our clients, that you went above and beyond.
[00:17:34] You'll get more of what you're looking for when you do that. So that's one key driver things that people can go out and do right now simple things
[00:17:42] Jason: Yeah, I think yeah that first item you mentioned feeling valued or feeling appreciated It's interesting because what i've noticed is on a lot of DISC assessments, there's the values index and most entrepreneurs I think focus on things being transactional and focus on trying to motivate people through money because they mistakenly assume that everybody likes money.
[00:18:01] And the economic score and a values index for most people is low except for entrepreneurs and salespeople typically. And if the economic score is low, that means they're more recognition motivated. So this is very much in alignment with the appreciation aspect, right? A lot of entrepreneurs are trying to throw money at people when they could save that money and just appreciate them and recognize them.
[00:18:25] And they would get far more output.
[00:18:27] Kon: But even with entrepreneurs and salespeople, Jason, I mean, look at us from this perspective: we all love being appreciated, but even with the money piece, if I'm driven towards money, it's rarely about the dollar bill itself. It's about what that represents for me.
[00:18:41] And for entrepreneurs, sometimes it's a recognition of their arrival, their accomplishment. For some people, it's a representation of financial security that gives them the freedom, the life that they want. That's what you see. When you see all of these people advertising these solutions that produce money for people, what are they putting out there?
[00:19:01] The big houses. The freedom, the lifestyle, the cars, all of that stuff. That's what that a big part of what that represents. It's never just about the money, but it's just as much for your entry level laborer in your property that's going around cleaning out things. For them, that money means security.
[00:19:20] That means that I am a paycheck away from living on the street. And that's what you need to understand. What is driving? I mean, you mentioned the word motivating earlier, and it's important for our audience to understand that you cannot motivate another person. That is a falsehood. Motivation is an intrinsic process.
[00:19:39] Psychologically, you cannot do that to somebody else. All you can do is create the right environment where people will feel self motivated.
[00:19:49] Jason: Yeah.
[00:19:50] Kon: This is the proverbial. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a drink unless it's thirsty.
[00:19:55] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a drink.
[00:20:00] But you can salt its oats, correct? Another phrase that I love is "whenever we fail to inspire, we always control."
[00:20:08] Kon: Correct. And that's the part where you want to drive that you want to create the environment for anybody that's spent any time out there trying to go fishing. You realize that not every fish likes the same bait.
[00:20:23] So you have to put the right bait out there to attract and inspire that fish to bite. And it's the same with your people. The job of a leader is to really set the course, give them a plan, give them the reason why, and the how becomes "this is how I want to motivate you." I want you to achieve your goals by helping me achieve our goals.
[00:20:44] That's the second driver, connection. We are tribal creatures, Jason. Part of the reason why we all wear uniforms, for example, at a job, or the same t shirts, is because we want to belong to the same tribe. That builds bonds, camaraderie, connection to people. I mean, think about the last time you met somebody in a crowd that's from the same hometown, went to the same university, supports the same sports team.
[00:21:08] I mean, you go to a stadium, there's 50, 000 people wearing the same jersey as you, and you feel connected to them.
[00:21:13] Jason: Yeah.
[00:21:13] Kon: And so people crave that.
[00:21:15] Jason: I just went to one of those Texas Football games that at the university here and yeah, it's like, it's crazy.
[00:21:22] Kon: Correct. So people want to feel part of a team.
[00:21:26] And so in order to do that, use your team building skills. Make sure that people understand what it is that you're going after. What game are you playing? Are you playing football? Are you playing tennis? What are you playing? These are different games. Make sure that people understand what's the game, what's the values, how are we going to get there?
[00:21:42] And then create that bond and respect between you and each team member while you're building the bonds between the team members themselves. And give people a path so they can see how they can achieve their aspirations by working with you and the team. We talked about that. If my goal is to make sure that I secure a paycheck because I'm financially insecure to pay my bills, or you know what, I have to support my kids, show me how to do that.
[00:22:07] Show me how to get there. If my goal is to become the best salesperson in the region, show me how to do that. Because that way, when you align their goals and yours you can unleash huge energy and potential because people will be striving because it's a win win. They don't have to do your goals instead of theirs.
[00:22:25] They don't have to sacrifice one for the other. That alignment really gives them permission to give their best.
[00:22:32] Jason: Yeah, we're looking at the proverbial win, like if there isn't a win, it's win lose and either we're going to lose or they're going to lose. So correct. So this kind of speaks to their needing to be for connection.
[00:22:42] There needs to be alignment in you know, mission.
[00:22:45] Kon: Correct. And that's what you hire for. Back to your original question. If you find people that are aligned because this is what they want to do and you can show them how they can fulfill their personal mission by working with the team to achieve its mission.
[00:22:59] That's where the win, that's where the secret sauce is. That alignment truly alleviates the need to micromanage because when they are confronted with a choice, they will make the right choice because their why is intact. They understand why they're doing something. It's easier for them to take that personal accountability for themselves and for the team.
[00:23:19] Jason: A lot of business owners don't even know their why, which is why they're running into these sort of mistakes.
[00:23:24] Kon: Correct. Again, because they are operating at a very tactical transactional level. They're not elevating to their higher self. I mean when you look at it, the people that achieve the greatest things are the ones that have a purpose behind them They are driven by that when you have purpose driven organizations They will always outperform the others the same way that engaged organizations when they harness that power from their team will always outperform their competitors by a lot i'm talking about 20 percent more in operating revenues.
[00:23:56] I'm talking three times the profitability. I'm talking almost nine out of 10 people say "I have no reason to go anywhere else." So you're keeping your best and brightest and probably attracting your competitors' best and brightest.
[00:24:09] Jason: Absolutely. I've seen a three times the output from a team if they align with the culture the personality and the values and you know, all that easily three times the output. And that's the biggest, one of the biggest profit levers in a business because the biggest expense in a business is the people and those all connected with people.
[00:24:29] Kon: Correct. And when you start looking at that at that line item in your P and L.
[00:24:33] As truly an investment, you're going to approach it very differently because you're going to be smart about where you put the money. I mean, it's the same way you wouldn't find a temporary solution to fix something in your buildings. You want to find a solution that makes sense, the best return on that investment.
[00:24:48] And that's where, for example, you come in and you look at the productivity piece, which is the third driver. People want to know that they contribute, that they make a difference, Jason. I mean, the example that I give in my coaching and my training sessions on this topic is If I was to give you a team photo from a recent event that you were together with a group of people, what's the first thing that most of us would do, you think?
[00:25:12] Jason: If you were to give a team photo,
[00:25:14] Kon: if I was to give you a team photo that you were in of a recent event, you were there with your team. Let's say you're celebrating something and there's 15 of you on this, in this picture. What's the, one of the first things that you would do? I just handed you that picture.
[00:25:27] Jason: I would look to see if everyone's happy.
[00:25:31] Kon: Or even where you are, right? People want to know where they fit into this picture.
[00:25:34] Jason: Oh yeah. If it's a new photo, I'd be like, I'd look at myself first.
[00:25:37] Kon: Yeah. Right. Yeah. So most of us will take a look at that picture and say, Hey, where am I in this picture? And then look around and say, Oh, I can see Steve smiling.
[00:25:44] I can see Mary over there. She looked like she was having a good time. All the men. Now we see where we fit into this bigger picture. It's the same thing for entrepreneurs. Show your people where they fit in. Show them that even the most menial task. Joe, thank you for cleaning up that mess over there. You know what, that represents the standard that we have here at the property.
[00:26:04] When you did that, that made a big difference. Somebody passing by will look at us and know that we care about this property. They will care about it. That's contagious. And you know what, Billy last week tripped on a mess like that and now he's twisted his ankle and now he's out for three months and now you have to do his job as well.
[00:26:21] So thank you for taking care of that. So nobody else got hurt. That tells people That even the most menial task has a purpose they can connect the dots when people feel like they can contribute in meaningful ways, they can be productive your systems your processes allow them to be productive back to our starting point. They will flourish. They want to make a difference.
[00:26:43] You're going to spend time at work. Anyway, we spent what a third of our day typically at work at least unless you're an entrepreneur and then you're probably spending a lot more But the thing is are you making a difference? How are you impacting others when you can do that, that fuels you that makes a difference When I see the light bulb go on in my clients and the people that I coach the people that I teach, that is fuel to me. That fuels my passion about what I do.
[00:27:10] And so knowing that I make a difference, knowing that people come back to me and say, you know what, I applied your technique, your system, what you recommended, what we discovered together, and it made a difference. That is power. That is a driver. And people want to know that they contribute. You see it in volunteers, Jason, all the time.
[00:27:29] They're not doing it for the money. They're going out there because they believe in what they're doing, that what they're doing makes a difference. Get that volunteer spirit on your team. Get them excited about what they're doing, knowing that they can make a difference. That's power.
[00:27:43] Jason: Yeah. It's amazing. You look at churches as a business, they have a lot of people just volunteering. You look at open source software initiatives. They have a lot of people that are working their day job, but their passion hobby is to contribute to this open source thing for free. You know? Exactly.
[00:28:00] Kon: I spent recently 25 hours a week or more coaching kids soccer.
[00:28:06] I didn't do it for the money. I did it because I wanted to see that passion. To me, I believed in what I was doing and I was making a difference. I teach girls, especially I coach girls. Why? Because I believe that when we can teach young women how to advocate for themselves, tap into their leadership abilities from a young age, and they know that they can perform well as individuals, as team members, as team leaders, they become better leaders tomorrow, and we need more of those leaders tomorrow. I'm working with the early generations now, so in the future I don't have to go in and try to change the mind of 40 year old executives
[00:28:45] Jason: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when they're young and they won't depart from it. Right.
[00:28:51] Kon: Teach them those foundational pieces.
[00:28:53] They become better. I mean, I have kids, I've won and lost games and tournaments and championships, but you know what the biggest reward for me is? When I have a kid coming back to me years later and say, coach, thank you. I still love the game because of you. And these are the things that I've accomplished because of the life skills that I learned playing on your team.
[00:29:12] Yeah. That stuff that they pick up from you, I'm sure applies to everything.
[00:29:18] Correct. And then finally, the last driver is people need to feel supported to learn and grow. Speaking of coaching and developing, I liken this Jason to the example of water. Water is a life source, right? Right. But a swamp is water, so is a river.
[00:29:34] The difference between the two is the flow, is the is the movement. Nobody wants to be caught up in a swamp in their careers, in their jobs. Everybody wants a flowing river, and they want to know that there's a path, there's a career path for them, there's a way for them to grow. Even if, like you said, they might be limited by their own abilities to some extent, or their own desires, to some extent, show them how they can be the best in the current role that they're in.
[00:30:01] Maybe they're not going to be promoted to the next general manager managing a hundred units, but maybe there's somebody who can teach and mentor a young person coming in to your business, and they can offer value through that. Maybe that becomes part of what they do. So there is room for everybody to continue to learn and grow.
[00:30:18] Give them that opportunity. This is the train smart, the growth part where everybody has a sense of, I'm showing up to work and I'm a little bit better than I was yesterday, or that there's a clear career path because if they can't find the path in your business, they're going to try to find it somewhere else.
[00:30:36] Jason: Sure. Yeah. Nobody wants to feel stuck or stagnant. And, you know, I think that's what our soul craves. Our soul craves growth. I think that I think a lot of people mistakenly, I think the point of, you know, Life of marriage of everything that people recommend that maybe you do is to be happy. I think the point I think happiness is a more mediocre goal than growth.
[00:30:59] I think the point is growth. That doesn't always mean you're going to be happy, right? And I love your water analogy. I've heard a similar analogy before where it's like, which would you rather drink? The From the crazy wild raging river or the stagnant puddle in front of your house Right. And it's that sort of turbulence and challenge that purifies the water and that makes it a much safer environment to drink from.
[00:31:26] Kon: Absolutely. And I mean, my, my first book was all about managing crisis and about managing sudden change. And even in that you realize that crisis presents opportunities on the flip side of it. Crisis is not all bad. Crisis means that, you know what? Hey, things are being shaken up big time unexpectedly, but who wouldn't want to be? I mean you think about crises over time I mean in 2008 prior to 2008 we didn't have you know Airbnb and uber eats or ubers in general you didn't have any of that stuff I mean, after the crisis of 2008, people got creative and they found new ways of dealing things, you know, sharing out rooms in their house, renting things out, short term rentals, looking at opportunities to replace cabs, using their cars smartly.
[00:32:12] You look at the recent pandemic crisis. I mean, wouldn't you have liked to have stocks in some of these virtual meeting rooms, Zoom and others? Wouldn't that be great to have that beforehand because that was an opportunity all of a sudden everybody's gone virtual. So this is important for us to understand.
[00:32:27] Growth comes sometimes through turbulence, through upheaval, you know, things change either as an evolution progressively, slowly, or as a revolution.
[00:32:38] Jason: Yeah. Crisis equals opportunity. Correct. If that's your mindset, otherwise it equals something horrible.
[00:32:45] Kon: I mean, there's a lot of entrepreneurs that aspire to the mantra, especially when they're in the DISC profile.
[00:32:50] When you say about the D's, the dominant ones, you look at it and you say, if it ain't broke, break it. That's the mantra. Right.
[00:32:58] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, cool. So we've got four items feel valued, appreciated. Number one, these are the four key drivers, the drivers of revenue, performance, everything else.
[00:33:09] Kon: Engagement and engagement leads to the performance. Right.
[00:33:12] Jason: Okay. So we've got number one, feeling value. Number two, connection. Maybe we should stick all of our team members in the same t shirts. I don't know. And, you know, making them feel like a team. Make it feel like a soccer team. Maybe I don't know number three productivity, meaning they feel like they're contributing to something that contribution I think is something that entrepreneurs deeply crave and they want to feel like they have impact And then number four supported to learn and grow,
[00:33:40] correct.
[00:33:40] Kon: Yeah. For the four drivers. I mean, this is basically the 80 20 rule. When you can do those four things, that'll get you the majority of the way there to really create an engaged team and engaged workforce with you as a leader. I mean, think about it this way. Leaders contribute about 70 percent of the variance between an average team And a high performing team.
[00:34:03] 70 percent of that difference comes from your leadership style. If you apply these simple four principles, these simple four drivers to your business, and you start engaging your people, you can transform your workplace to win in the marketplace. You're igniting the fire in your people without burning them out.
[00:34:22] That's essential.
[00:34:24] Jason: And if you have bad team members, but you have these four things, they're just not going to fit. They're not going to want to stick around. I mean, if everybody's feeling valued, there's connection that, you know, there's focus on making a difference and people are supported, learn and grow.
[00:34:37] It's going to be obvious. Like there's going to be these B players that no matter how appreciated they are, they're just, or there's nothing to appreciate or that, you know, they don't want to be a team player. They don't care about the connection with other people. They aren't productive. They don't feel, they don't care if they're making a difference.
[00:34:53] They just wanted like, kind of basically they want to complain about you, their boss and live for the weekend. Correct. And they are, and they don't care about growth. They're like, they're just showing up that it's going to be very obvious that they're not a culture fit.
[00:35:06] Kon: And so that's where you look at it.
[00:35:08] And now bringing a full circle back to your original piece of staffing. Now, you know, where your holes are now, you know, where the gaps are, and now, you know, what you're looking for. And then you can enlist the help of the rest of your team to bring them on board, to be part of this group, to really embrace your culture.
[00:35:24] It's a lot easier once you get this in motion to be able to have this operate because it's a self sustaining organism. It's a community. I mean, one of the biggest things that I tell people in the last closing part of the book is I let them know that people think the grass is greener on the other side.
[00:35:44] It's not. The grass is greener where you water it. Sure. So you need to take care of your patch of grass. You need to make sure that you apply these principles, and then that rest will take care of itself. The grass that's flourishing will crowd out the weeds. It'll take care of all of those different things.
[00:36:03] Your people, through their own empowerment, they will see your business as their own, and they will start monitoring and managing this process with you. And for you, because that's the power of true engagement. Now you've got people that feel that personal accountability, that ownership, because they feel empowered.
[00:36:20] Jason: Yeah. If the grass isn't green on your side of the fence and you're the business owner, the problem is you, this is a leadership factor. I had one of my mentors, he used to say to me, he said, he'd say, Jason, If you don't yet have the business of your dreams, it's because you're not yet the person that can run it yet.
[00:36:39] And you know, that's good medicine, but a bitter pill to accept, you know, in moments for a lot of people. But yeah, I think Yeah, I think it's greener where you water it. And if you, if I love these four principles, if you can align your team around this, that creates a really good culture.
[00:36:56] The environment then is safe. People are feeling appreciated. And then you're moving people eventually out of just this transactional leadership into moving them towards a transformational leadership that turns them into leaders.
[00:37:11] Kon: Correct. Correct. Because you want leaders at all levels. I mean, great leaders don't create followers. They create more leaders. So you want to be able to empower people and set them in the right direction. You know, create those leaders at all levels of the organization and that way they all feel empowered to take ownership of, they see something that needs to be fixed. They fix it. They need somebody who's struggling. They're going to reach out. They need to communicate information. They will communicate that information because they feel empowered and they feel like leaders. And that's what leaders do. If you just have followers, if you just have people out there that are waiting for you to tell them what to do.
[00:37:49] That's a lot of work.
[00:37:50] Jason: Yeah. I think that's the challenge is when the way a solopreneur thinks, you know, they start hiring and they're not hiring usually based on what they need as a business or they're hiring based on what the business needs. And so eventually they have an entire team. Yeah. And their first initial team, usually I've noticed, is the wrong team.
[00:38:11] They built a team around the wrong puzzle piece. They're showing up involved in wearing hats and doing things they don't really enjoy doing, and they built an entire team around that. And so by default, And the way I get them to realize this, I say, look, if you've got, if you're, you have an entire team and you are still wearing all the hats you don't enjoy wearing or involved in all the things you don't enjoy doing, then by default, you have to have the wrong team.
[00:38:38] Kon: I would agree with that. Again, your job is not to sit here and do everybody else's job. The people that you bring onto your team should be willing to do their job and then start reaching at the next level to start taking on more because you've empowered them and you want them to grow. That's the big part of this.
[00:38:54] It's a difference between leading a team and doing the work. Just like in even in an organization, but especially when you're an entrepreneur, the first thing that you're going to need to let go of when you start creating a team is the thing that probably got you there. All of the things that you did well, if you're the top performer on your team, you got a problem.
[00:39:14] That's a big problem. You need to now start thinking of it as, I need to create a team of high performers as opposed to me being a high performer. And that's a very different thing for salespeople, for managers, for people that have done well in the past. They've done well and they've probably reached this level.
[00:39:30] Either they got promoted to a job to the next level, or they started their own business with that mindset, but they have to stop competing with their people. They have to start teaching all of the good things that they've learned that made them successful. So they can now build the team around them.
[00:39:47] There's a reason why from the famous Bulls team of the nineties. Why Michael Jordan, the best player potentially in history, is not a coach, as opposed to Steve Kerr, who was on his team and probably was a big player on the Bulls team, but an important one. Steve Kerr understood what it took to become successful.
[00:40:08] He watched some of the best. He played with some of the best. He learned how to teach that. Michael worked hard, tirelessly, but at the same time. Steve had so many natural talents, things that came so naturally to him that those things were very difficult, if not impossible for him to teach. So, whereas Steve, with his limitations physically and his talent, understood how to take good players and make them great.
[00:40:35] Jason: You know, I love this example. Michael Jordan, though, before he had the right system, was just a showboat. Before he had Phil Jackson, a good coach, before he had Scottie Pippen and the team that he had. That Phil Jackson built around Michael Jordan's abilities. He wasn't winning championships.
[00:40:54] Kon: Correct.
[00:40:55] Jason: It was just a showboat.
[00:40:56] And this is, you know, a good analogy when we can take really good people and put them into the right, we create the right environment, the right system. We give them the right system. Then they become. Become rock stars.
[00:41:08] Kon: Correct. And they shine in that. And you see that sometimes like you call them a system quarterback because they shine in that system.
[00:41:15] And the thing is at the end of the day, what are you building? You're not building a place to showcase individuals per se. This is not even about the owner or the entrepreneur to some extent. That's not the vanity piece. You want a successful business. You want to be able to build that around people that can get things done for your clients so you can have success however you define success, whether it's the revenues, the profits, the customer satisfaction.
[00:41:38] I mean, those are the three key drivers that all businesses are founded on. And then you look at that and you say, okay, It's not about me. And we've got big companies that went to the toilet because their CEOs thought it was all about them. And that's part of the problem. Part of the challenge, Jason, you look at it and say, okay, when did you start building a team?
[00:41:56] It's about the team. It's about how are you performing as an organization? It doesn't matter how many followers I have on social media or how many likes I get on my posts, if my business is in the toilet.
[00:42:08] Jason: Yeah. I think one of the challenges I see is that. In the beginning of the journey for entrepreneurs, is there a solopreneur, there's a lot of ego, and there's a lot of self belief they need in order to get started because there's a lot of difficulty, a lot of friction, the challenges that creates a hindrance in the future.
[00:42:24] Because one of the initial things I noticed that a lot of solopreneurs believe when they start hiring is what I call the clone myth. They think I just need to clone myself. I need to go find somebody like me cause I'm so special and so adaptable and so important. I need to go find somebody like myself.
[00:42:39] And then they wonder why this person maybe steals their clients and eventually starts their own business. Cause you know, they're, that if somebody's like, yeah, instead of finding people that are better than them, and this is kind of the next level, they don't think that people can be better than them.
[00:42:54] And my goal is to hire people that are way better at me on all the things that I don't enjoy doing. That's not difficult to do if I don't enjoy doing it I'm, definitely not going to be the best at it and I can definitely find people that are better at it And then when we hire people and then we treat them transactionally, it's like here's a task you return a report and do it, our team members then don't feel safe as you talked about to make decisions. The safest thing is to abdicate all the thinking decision making to me because then they're not responsible for the outcome.
[00:43:26] And so this, there's kind of this graduation of having to learn to let go of going from a transactional leadership system to a strategic or sort of planning system where they have outcomes and goals and we'll do whatever's required in order to achieve it by a deadline instead of just being told what to do because you're the smartest person in the room, so to speak.
[00:43:47] Kon: Yeah, I mean a couple of things. Let's unpack that for a second if I may. First of all, I aspire to the idea that like you, you have masterminds, you have groups that you coach, you work with people in a group setting as well as one on one. If I find myself being the smartest person in a mastermind in a group, that's the wrong group for me to be in.
[00:44:04] Jason: Yeah. Right. So that's the first thing of being in the group. That's one of the best benefits of being in a mastermind is being able to be around other people that excel in different areas, you know, over what you do.
[00:44:18] Kon: Yeah. Correct. So that's number one. Number two, when you are constantly just telling your people what to do and you're asking them to delegate or you're taking ownership of all the thinking you are teaching learned helplessness.
[00:44:31] You see it in parents of teenage kids. When you do all of the thinking for them and you just say, "fine, I'll just do it" or "clean up your room. You haven't cleaned it up to my expectations." Well, guess what? Why don't you explain the expectations and show them how to do it?
[00:44:47] You cannot do that. There's a time and a place.
[00:44:49] To be very directive with people when they're first learning a task, you want to basically be very highly directive with them. You want to show them step by step how to do that. And as they become more confident and capable, then you start letting go. It's like you take off the training wheels. When you're teaching a kid how to ride a bike, you're not all of a sudden going to stick them on this racing bike and just push them down the hill.
[00:45:11] You want to progressively give them a chance to learn and grow from that. That's how you do with your people. Don't expect them all of a sudden to have mastered that. They're not going to be where you are. Show them progressively how to master each step. That takes time, but that's the job of a leader.
[00:45:25] Most people look at why "I don't have time to do that." Well, what are you doing? Where are you spending your time? Because to me as a leader, that is your time. You brought these people on, you're paying them a salary.
[00:45:36] Jason: How do people create this learned helplessness? Because people are doing it and they're kind of blind to it.
[00:45:42] I would imagine.
[00:45:43] Kon: Correct. Because they keep saying, well, I don't have time to stop and teach you this. Just give it to me. And when you add all of these things onto your plate, time after time, 30 minutes for this, two hours for that four hours for this one day for this, all of a sudden your plate is overflowing and you've taught everybody around you to sit around and wait for you to do it.
[00:46:03] Yeah. Because yes, it might take you longer in the moment to teach somebody how to do that task, but that is compounding interest because the next time they'll do it more and more, they'll eventually get good at it. Perhaps even better than you at something, but the fact of the matter is that you are taking off that time over the course of time off your plate.
[00:46:26] That's freeing you up to do the other things that you need to be doing. You cannot afford to try to be, again, the best player on your team. If you are, that's a problem. Why did you hire these people?
[00:46:38] Jason: Yeah, it's like we need to trust them with outcomes and give them outcomes to achieve, goals to achieve, instead of just telling them what to do all the
[00:46:47] Kon: time and giving them that.
[00:46:47] Correct. That's the paradox. Most people want to measure outputs as opposed to outcomes. Yes, outputs have a place. How many hours did you spend on this? How many calls did you make? How many widgets did you produce? Yes, I get that part, but overall measure people's success based on outcomes, because maybe you care about effort, but most of us care about results in this business.
[00:47:12] Jason: You know, this is one of the things when we coach clients on the operational side of things that we've noticed is that, and we have this formula for the ultimate job descriptions we call R docs, and one of the key sections that are usually missing from job descriptions is results.
[00:47:27] This is, you know, they'll have the role of the responsibilities, but there's no methodology in this for prioritization, right? And we want to pay as business owners, we want to pay for outcomes. That's really what we want. We're desiring outcomes. We're desiring results. And so I think just clarity on helping our team members understand Why they're doing certain things and understanding why it matters and then understanding what are the outcomes or the results that we want? We get far better results, you know, not so surprisingly.
[00:47:56] So, yeah, so be around others that exceed expectations, love the idea of learned helplessness.
[00:48:04] Kon: Yeah. I mean, we condition our people to do certain things a certain way. I mean, we teach them how to do it and from our behaviors, the things we tolerate, the things we accept, the things that we focus on. All of that is sending clear messages to our team about what matters.
[00:48:19] We, whether we realize it or not, we're constantly training them and educating them based on the way that we behave. They're going to respond to that. That's what people do. That's what happens in a system. They're going to look at the leader and say, Oh, What kind of mood is he or she in today? I mean, where's he going with this?
[00:48:35] And the more unpredictable you are from that, the more people are not feeling safe in this. And again, that comes back to when they know that they can bring you issues and you're not going to fly off the handle when they know that you know what, Hey, you're going to sit there and listen to them. You're going to appreciate what they're saying.
[00:48:51] Even if you don't like the message and thank them for the courage to share that with you, you know, good news, bad news doesn't get better with time. And so you want to know these things ahead of time, you want to find ways and then teach them how to solve problems so they can come to you with potential solutions.
[00:49:07] Hey boss, this is what I'm thinking. This is what happened. These are the options that I'm thinking. Which way do you think we should go? Let's talk about that. Why do you think we should go this way? Why do you think we should go that way? Again, teach your people, treat them a certain way. I treated my kids, even my entry level kids, even my recreational teams.
[00:49:25] I've won championships. Why? Because I treated them as champions before they even won a damn thing. Because I held them to that standard. Treat your team like champions and they will perform that way. Even if they're not the most talented. That's the thing you condition them to do. You create that culture, Jason.
[00:49:42] Jason: You know, a lot of things you're touching on just now really speak to the point of empathy and just being empathetic and you know, caring about people and caring about their situation, caring about what they want and figuring out their motives and it seems like, you know, the highest performing teams are not the teams that have the most KPIs or the most metrics.
[00:50:02] It's, there's been studies that say it's that there's the most empathy involved. So it's difficult, I think, for business owners to be empathetic though, sometimes.
[00:50:12] Kon: Well, what is empathy? Empathy? We talk about empathy as an emotional intelligence skill. We talk about empathy as our ability to be aware and understand where somebody else is coming from, where they're going, how they're approaching things, how they're processing things.
[00:50:26] It's a it's a way to understand and acknowledge others' behaviors, feelings, et cetera. That's a capacity that we have as leaders, as emotionally intelligent leaders to be able to do. That's key. But to me, empathy unto itself in a business environment, especially or a high performance environment is only half of the equation.
[00:50:46] Because to me, empathy needs to be paired up with tough love. I want to understand where you're coming from, but I also want to make sure that we set clear expectations through my understanding of what you can produce and what you're willing to produce. I can set clear expectations and boundaries, so we're both safe from that.
[00:51:05] I look at back when I was, for example, working with people during The COVID days when we were all stuck and all of a sudden we're all doing virtual teams, or even now in a hybrid environment where we're operating that. That's one of the biggest challenges a lot of leaders have because they don't know how to manage teams when they're not in front of them.
[00:51:21] If I can't see the whites of your eyes, how am I going to know you're working? I have that with a lot of my clients. They struggle with that.
[00:51:28] And to me, it's all about the leadership paradox. And one of the paradox elements that I teach is this empathy and tough love. I need to be empathetic with the fact that somebody is working in a very different situation.
[00:51:42] Not everybody has a home office like I do, or you do. People sometimes have to work at their kitchen tables. They've got kids, school aged kids that they're trying to be a business person. They're trying to be a teacher at home. They're trying to be a short order cook. They're trying to take care of an aging parent in the background.
[00:51:59] And guess what? They may have to pick things up at 10 o'clock at night after they put the kids to bed to try to cram the rest of the work that they didn't get finished during the day To me it's important as an empathetic leader to understand their situation and their plight, but on the other hand I need to protect them through tough love and say look, let's focus on the things that you can do the most important elements. Here are the priorities. If you get nothing else done, I want you to do one two three things this week. When you do them is up to you. I'm understanding your situation, but these are the three things that we need to agree to get done. That now allows me to pair empathy with tough love and that paradox creates a powerful synthesis that now I am leading from an effective way.
[00:52:42] Jason: Yeah, I love the idea of tough love because you know tough love is two two words here, right tough and love and if we're tough, if we're just like shoving leadership at them without empathy, then it's cruel, right? They're going to perceive it as cruel. And if we showcase love and empathy, but we don't showcase any leadership, or any toughness or direction for them, then we're almost keeping them in their mediocrity.
[00:53:09] Kon: Because with the tough love piece, again, you're setting those firmer boundaries, the expectations, the clear expectations, but you're doing it from a place of caring for them, caring for the team and caring for everything that you're trying to accomplish. That's the part of it. It needs to be that.
[00:53:25] And sometimes as a leader, you're going to have to make those difficult decisions or have those difficult conversations with people and see what you can do. You're trying to manage people from where you think they should be. Try managing them from where they truly are. I've had very talented young people that are coming up and I see them as rock stars and the world is their oyster.
[00:53:45] But guess what? Something changes in their lives. The priority, a health issue, an ailing parent, a new kid in the family, their priorities change just because I want to promote them and give them more responsibility, they may not be in a position to accept that responsibility. And it's important for us to really understand that because if I burn that person out or force them to make a choice, I put them in a big difficult situation and then I will lose that person.
[00:54:11] Again, make sure that you understand how to harness that power and work with people.
[00:54:17] Jason: We need to know our people and we need to care about them. Well, Kon, this has been really enjoyable. I love your ideas. I love your frameworks that you shared with us today.
[00:54:25] You had mentioned your business is Fresh Biz Solutions and you have a book, The Engagement Blueprint. Maybe in closing, you could just tell us like, what are they going to find? What was this book and how can they get in touch with you and any closing words?
[00:54:40] Kon: Thank you. I appreciate that. Well, the book is basically A distillation of 30 years of talent management and team building experience.
[00:54:49] And in that book, I've spent a couple of years researching what is it that truly drives this level of engagement from people? How can we harness that? How can we build the kind of workplace that we all want to go to, that we all want to be part of? A place where we can raise the level of commitment and performance with our team members and really get the best out of them.
[00:55:10] It includes some of my key frameworks, the things that we talked about. Earlier today, it includes my performance framework and the four elements of what I do for my clients. Building competence, building commitment, building teamwork and building systems and how that fits into the four drivers of engagement that we talked about.
[00:55:28] So there's a path and pattern and a method to the madness. I've had the opportunity to interview some wonderful leaders, global leaders that have had broad teams, broad, different industries, different circumstances, but people that I have tremendous respect for, and they've all shared their information.
[00:55:45] I've got case studies in the book from places where I've applied this, so it's not just my theory or things that I hope will work. I've showed people how this has actually worked in the real world, and they can take those in practical ways and apply them immediately with them. If people want to reach out to me, if the people are ready to work together, if I can support them in their efforts, they can reach out to me either by going to my website, fresh biz, B I Z solutions with an S at the end. com. And they can find a lot of wonderful information there, including a free engagement assessment so they can immediately see how their team is performing, where their strengths are, or they can reach out to me and connect through LinkedIn. That's where I normally play on my social media there. I have posts and newsletters there that come out weekly, and they can find me there under Coach Kon.
[00:56:34] Coach Kon with a K, because it's hard to get people to trust you when you spell Kon with a C.
[00:56:40] Jason: There you go. Yeah, probably true. All right. Coach Kon. Great to have you here on the show. Thanks for hanging out with us on the DoorGrow show. Appreciate you being here.
[00:56:49] Kon: Thank you, my friend.
[00:56:50] Jason: All right. So for those of you that enjoy the show, you know, check out his website, freshbizsolutions. com. And if you are a property management business owner and entrepreneur, and you're struggling with adding doors, getting your systems in place. We would love to support you and see if we might be a fit. Reach out to us at DoorGrow.Com. And if you would like to get into a community, join our free Facebook group by going to DoorGrowclub.Com. We reject 60 to 70 percent of the people that apply to join that group. You have to be a property management business owner. So make sure you answer the question. And it's a great community you get access to our podcast episodes and everything else goes into there And we'll give you some free gifts for joining as well.
[00:57:33] They can help your business And until next time, to our mutual growth, everyone. I hope you crush it. Bye, everyone.
[00:57:39] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!
[00:58:06] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.