Ep289: Mystic Poetry of Rumi - Professor William Rory Dickson
Jan 17, 2025
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Join Professor William Rory Dickson, an expert in Sufi philosophy, as he explores the life and legacy of the renowned 13th-century poet Rūmī. Discover the influence of Shams-i Tabrīzī on Rūmī's transformative poetry and the complex responses to his work in modern Islam. Dickson challenges common misinterpretations of Rūmī’s verses, particularly those by Coleman Barks, and discusses the mystical metaphors of intoxication in Sufi practice. This conversation highlights the enduring relevance of Rūmī's teachings in today's spiritual landscape.
Rumi's journey as a refugee fleeing Mongol invasions profoundly shaped his spiritual evolution and poetic expression in 13th-century Turkey.
The transformative encounter between Rumi and Shams-i Tabrīzī catalyzed a shift from scholarly to ecstatic spirituality, altering Rumi's poetic themes.
Critiques of Coleman Barks' interpretations of Rumi highlight the tension between accessible poetry and the depth of original Islamic contexts.
Deep dives
The Life and Background of Rumi
Rumi, a renowned 13th-century Sufi poet, was deeply influenced by his tumultuous background as a refugee fleeing the Mongol invasions, which led him from Central Asia to present-day Turkey. Educated in the traditional Islamic sciences, Rumi was not just a poet but a well-versed Islamic scholar familiar with the Quran and Islamic law. His poetic expressions often incorporate references to these teachings, which are sometimes overlooked by contemporary audiences who view him through a universalist lens. Despite efforts to present him as an orthodox Muslim figure, Rumi's multifaceted identity encompasses both traditional scholarship and ecstatic spirituality, allowing for a rich exploration of divine love and insight in his works.
The Transformative Encounter with Shams
The pivotal moment in Rumi's life came when he met Shams-e Tabrizi, a wild and free-spirited dervish who challenged Rumi's scholarly approach to spirituality. Their profound connection sparked a transformative love that deeply affected Rumi's poetry and spiritual awakening, leading him to express themes of divine love and longing in his works. The intense dynamics of their relationship also created tensions with Rumi's peers and prompted jealousy among those in his scholarly circles, further underscoring the tension between orthodox Islamic practices and the ecstatic experiences found in Sufism. This encounter ultimately highlights the contrasting paths of institutional scholarship and experiential spirituality that characterize Rumi's legacy.
Reception of Rumi in the West
Rumi's popularity skyrocketed in the West, particularly due to the translations and interpretations by figures such as Coleman Barks, who emphasized a more universal and accessible approach to his poetry. While this transformation introduced Rumi to a broader audience, it also sparked debates among scholars regarding the fidelity of these adaptations to Rumi's original work, which contains rich Islamic references that may be lost or altered. Critics point out that by focusing on a de-Islamified interpretation, the depth and cultural context of Rumi's poetry may be diminished, leading to a misunderstanding of the Sufi tradition. This phenomenon reflects a broader trend in how spiritual figures are reinterpreted in different cultural contexts, often disconnecting them from their original religious roots.
Sufi Metaphors: Intoxication and Passionate Desire
Sufi literature frequently employs metaphors of intoxication and passionate desire to convey the depths of spiritual experience, equating divine love with ecstasy and overwhelming joy. These metaphors illustrate the Sufi view that all earthly loves and delights are mere reflections of the ultimate love for the divine. By engaging with these sensory experiences, Sufi practitioners aim to transcend mundane reality and achieve a closer relationship with God, echoing sentiments found in romantic and poetic traditions within Islamic culture. While this spiritual intoxication is celebrated, Sufism also acknowledges the challenges and suffering inherent in deep love, suggesting that true devotion often entails a willingness to endure hardship.
Balancing the Sexual and Spiritual in Sufism
In Sufi thought, love, including erotic love, is often viewed not just as a physical experience but as a pathway to deeper spiritual understanding. Sufi luminaries like Ibn Arabi articulated that true love encompasses both sensuality and spirituality, suggesting that the divine presence can be recognized within romantic connections. This perspective challenges more orthodox interpretations of Islam, which may view such expressions as inappropriate. By acknowledging the interplay between sensuality and spirituality, Sufi teachings advocate for a holistic understanding of love that embraces both the joy and the pain associated with deep affection.
In this episode I am joined by Dr. William Rory Dickson an associate professor of Islamic Religion and Culture at The University of Winnipeg and author of “Dissolving into Being: The Wisdom of Sufi Philosophy”.
Professor Dickson takes a deep dive into the life and works of Jalāl al-Dīn Muḥammad Rūmī (1207-1273 AD), a 13th century Sufi poet whose works have become famous all around the world.
Professor Dickson recounts the fascinating life of Rūmī, including his flight from Mongol invasion, his education in Islamic law, his life-changing encounter with the wild, mystical dervish Shams-i Tabrīzī, and his far-reaching legacy in Asia and beyond.
Professor Dickson also explains the anti-Rūmī movements within modern Islam, challenges criticism of Coleman Barks’ popular renderings of Rūmī’s verse, and explores the controversial Sufi metaphors of intoxication by wine and passionate desire to describe the practitioner’s relationship with God.
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Video version: https://www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep289-mystic-poetry-of-rumi-professor-william-rory-dickson-3
Also available on Youtube, iTunes, & Spotify – search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.
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Topics include:
00:00 - Intro
01:25 - The life of Jalāl al-Dīn Muḥammad Rūmī
03:39 - Neither universalist nor orthodox
05:09 - Rūmī, sharī’ah law, and radical Islam
07:08 - The range of Sufi expression over history
07:56 - The wandering dervishes
08:42 - Rūmī’s life-changing encounter with the radical dervish Shams-i Tabrīzī
09:56 - 3 stages of self-annihilation through love
11:14 - Shams-i Tabrīzī’s illicit alcohol use
13:36 - Rūmī’s spiritual poetry
16:13 - Rūmī’s explicit invectives
17:07 - Rūmī’s mystic father
19:08 - Mongol domination of Central Asia and Rūmī’s flight
21:29 - Rūmī’s colourful insults
22:52 - Challenging empty, orthodox religious forms
26:51 - Lack of nuance in the Rūmī wars
29:22 - Rūmī’s two major legacies
31:37 - The role of Sufi orders in different cultural contexts
33:48 - The anti-Sufis and a radical forgetting of Rūmī within Islam
35:37 - Coleman Barks and the Rūmī wars
37:23 - Criticism of Coleman Barks
39:06 - Coleman Barks was a Sufi
39:50 - Coleman Barks as an entry point
41:21 - The conundrum of translated literature
43:46 - How to communicate across cultures without losing the essence
45:12 - Rory’s enjoyment of Chogyam Trungpa
46:27 - Passionate desire and intoxication on wine
48:30 - Pre-Islamic Arab poetry, “gangster rap”
49:33 - Passionate love poetry
50:55 - Romantic streak in Arab culture
51:53 - Influence of Persian culture on Muslim mystic metaphors
52:46 - Sufism’s Neo-Platonism
55:50 - Remembering the One and Tantric practice
56:59 - Integrating the sensual and the spiritual
59:18 - Appreciation of pleasure as a vehicle to God
01:00:07 - Sufi sexuality and the paths of Jesus vs Mohammad
01:05:28 - Scandalous to orthodox Islam
01:07:48 - Knowing God directly
01:09:53 - Categorising God vs Sufi gnosis
01:11:18 - Executed Sufi master
01:11:54 - Is Sufism inappropriate?
01:13:26 - Wine in Sufism and Islam
01:17:39 - Love is brutal
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Previous episodes with Professor William Rory Dickson:
- https://www.guruviking.com/search?q=dickson
To find our more about Professor William Rory Dickson, visit:
- https://www.uwinnipeg.ca/experts-guide/william-rory-dickson.html
- https://anqa.co.uk/publications/dissolving-being
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For more interviews, videos, and more visit:
- https://www.guruviking.com
Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James
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