[PREVIEW] "We Couldn't Have a Campaign That Was Just For Fat People."

They're dealing with a consumer that they've never marketed to before and they don't really have the tools to do that. They don't know what's going to speak to that consumer. And it's also fatphobia, right? Because the brand doesn't want to center fat people as their customer. So they have to put everybody together in order for it to be okay. 

You're listening to Burnt Toast. This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.

Today I am chatting once again with the fantastic Mia O'Malley. Mia is content creator on Instagram and Tiktok (@MiaOMalley and @plussizebabywearing). Mia has been on the show before, so you’re probably already a big fan. I asked her back today because we needed to have a deep dive conversation about everything happening at Old Navy with plus size clothing.

Also! Substack has asked us to try out a new format for this episode. Paid subscribers, you’re getting the full audio and full transcript, below. (So nothing has changed, just consider this your July bonus episode!)

Free list folks: You’re getting the first chunk of my conversation with Mia (both audio and transcript), but if you would like the full version, you’ll need to become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber.

Reader subscriptions enable me to pay guests like Mia for their time and labor, so please, consider investing in these conversations if this is work you care about. 

When you get full access to my conversation with Mia, you’ll get way more juicy details on the whole Old Navy situation. And you’ll find out the two brands we think are doing a surprisingly GOOD job on plus size clothes right now. I bet it’s not who you think! 

PS. You voted and the results are in: We’ll be reading ESSENTIAL LABOR by Angela Garbes for the August Burnt Toast Book Club! Mark your calendars for Wednesday, August 31 at 12pm Eastern.

Episode 55 Transcript

Virginia

Hi Mia. So we'll start by reminding listeners who you are and what you do.

Mia

I'm Mia O'Malley. I'm a content creator on Instagram. I have my account @MiaOMalley where I share a lot of resources for fat and plus sized people and some of my own style and life. And then I have an account called @plussizebabywearing on Instagram and I'm @plussizebabywearing on TikTok.

Virginia

Last time, we had a pretty wide-ranging conversation where we talked about the intersection of fat activism and momfluencing, about finding a fat-friendly health care provider—all sorts of stuff. But this time, we have a very specific mission. When this news story broke, I was in the middle of writing my book, and I had no time to think about it, but you were on it. Your Instagram is this amazing resource. And I was like, Thank God, Mia will come on and explain to us what is happening with Old Navy and plus size clothing. I mean, it's a mess. How did this all start? 

Mia

So in August of 2021, old Navy launched what they called BODEQUALITY, and it was like, “the democracy of style.” They were going to offer sizes 0 to 30 and XS to 4x at the same price and then they would have it in 1200 stores. And they would be rolling out sizes 0 to 28 with no special plus size section. They also wanted us to know that there were going to be mannequins size 12 and 18. The CEO of Old Navy said, “It's not a one time campaign. It's a full transformation of our business and service to our customers, based on years of working closely with them to research their needs.” The marketing campaign included a TV commercial with Aidy Bryant from SNL and Shrill.

Virginia

So, none of this was subtle. This was a very full-throated, “We are here for plus sizes.”

Mia

Well, yes and no. The campaign was not subtle, but the campaign was also confusing. So many people did not even realize what BODEQUALITY meant.

Virginia

Well, they made up that word. 

Mia

And they made sure to include all diverse body types which, in general, is great. But it's part of a watered down body positivity, where we're not really getting to the heart of the matter and helping the people that are marginalized, that need to be helped and need to be lifted up. A lot of people did not recognize that this campaign meant that plus sizes were being carried in stores. It included people of “diverse body types,” it said “democracy of fashion.” But what does this really mean to someone? Does this mean that I can get my size in your store? It's not really clear.

This is me editorializing, but I just think: We couldn't have a campaign that was just for fat people. We have to do it adjacent to thin people.

Virginia

It gives them this cover, because they're using this aspirational rhetoric, instead of saying explicitly, “We have screwed over fat customers.”

Mia

Exactly. It just was not clear enough to the fat consumer that they were going to be able to access their clothes in store. It was muddled in the same way that body positivity gets muddled when we don't talk about the people that really should be centered in the movement.

But as someone who has been critical of Old Navy in the past, even I wanted BODEQUALITY to work. We wanted it to be an example for other retailers and brands, that that this could be something they could do. Even though I had messages in my DMs talking about issues folks were seeing, I didn't really want to talk about it at first, because I wanted to see how far it would go.

Well, less than a year later the Wall Street Journal reported that Old Navy would be pulling extended sizes from their stores. That article is a whole other thing that we can get into, too, because it's its own beast. 

Virginia

Yeah, so that's what just happened, which blew this all up. It looked like they were blaming their sales dropping on the fact that they had added more plus sizes to the stores. That was the story out there, right?

Mia

Yes, that's right. Suzanne Kapner—she wrote the article called “Old Navy Made Clothing Sizes for Everyone. It Backfired.” 

Virginia

I will say quickly, as a journalist, the headline is not Suzanne's fault. We never get to pick our headlines. However, the article itself is also problematic as you can now explain.

Mia

There are a few issues with the article. Most specifically, it doesn't include comments from anyone in Old Navy corporate. They took quotes from other interviews that they had done, but Old Navy didn't comment on this article itself. So a lot of what they had was attributions to someone who worked in the store, a PR person, a city analyst—different things. They also have this quote from Diane Von Furstenberg, who spoke at the the Future of Everything Festival and they put that front and center.

Virginia

So all we really know is that Old Navy sales dropped, right? We don't really know why, or whether it is reasonable to blame that on plus sizes.

Mia

Correct. First of all, they did not give this even a year to work. The CEO, Sonya Syngal, said on an earnings call that they “overestimated demand in stores” and they launched too broadly. They "over-planned larger sizes, with customer demand under-pacing supply. Someone else in Old Navy corporate said it was “a realigning of store inventory.” Which is not at all what the article says but sort of points to, they had an inventory problem.

Virginia

Which, it's been a pandemic! Everyone shifted to online shopping. They haven't yet gotten the customers back in the stores, period. Getting inventory right, regardless of sizing, is sort of a moving target right now.

Mia

What we're hearing from customers at Old Navy though, is they weren't even aware that plus sizes were in stores. That’s possibly because of the way that these stores are laid out. They took away or they didn't have a plus size section for a long time. But the plus size shopper is used to going to a specific section for their clothing. In this “democratizing of fashion,” Old Navy put everything together. And in some cases that made it harder for people to actually find their size. You had a lot of packed racks. You've had people struggling to find their sizes across the board.

I'm also hearing that although Old Navy says that they went to great lengths to look at their fit when they did this inclusive sizing, that the fits are completely off for many, many items. So, Old Navy denim that people were used to buying for years, totally changed. People's sizes completely changed. Rockstar jeans, which they had been buying for over a decade, are now a completely different size. And in many cases, people were having to size up two or three sizes thinking that their body has changed in some drastic way, when really Old Navy sizing, completely changed in many items. 

Virginia

That makes me wonder how inclusive they really intended to be.

Because if I'm someone who normally wears a 1x and now I'm buying the 3x, the fact that you're stocking the 3x has not made your clothing any more accessible to bigger people, right? Like someone who wears a 3x in another store would need a 5x here and you're not carrying a 5x. 

Mia 

Correct. 

Virginia

I mean, we've seen this. Many companies do this. This is not a new tactic. But it is one of the most insidious tactics for brands, claiming size inclusivity but not actually executing it. Just changing the numbers on the clothes does not equal size inclusivity.

Mia

Correct. And although Old Navy stated that they had had done digital avatars for 389 types of women, something is not clicking because across the board, you're hearing people coming back saying the size has totally changed. I don't even know what size I am. You know, the shorts are kind of all over the place. I was always fielding DMs from people and I'm certainly not the only creator who's been talking about this. I just want to point out MightyMurphinFashion on Tiktok has been covering this subject. She's very detail oriented and I highly recommend people go check her out if you want to hear more about the situation. But yeah, sizing has been all over the place. I have a highlight with people sharing their feedback on Old Navy sizing since the change. And every time I do talk about BODEQUALITY people are like, “Oh, I didn't even know.”

Virginia

I want to talk more about this question of the plus size section, too. On the one hand, I think it's really stigmatizing to have plus size as its own little section. Often, it's not given as much square footage in stores. If you're in a department store, it can be like on a different floor. It has been a way to silo us and put us in like a little corner and have less attention given to plus fashion, which is ridiculous since the majority of people buying clothes are buying clothes from that section. But I'm understanding what you're saying, that for Old Navy to pull out the plus section and throw everything on the rack with everything else, especially without good communication around that decision, is perhaps even more frustrating. Especially because clothing stores always do that annoying thing of putting the smallest sizes in the front. So you always have to go reaching to the back of the rod to find that. I can definitely see how that is maddening. Do you want to see brands doing better plus size sections? Or do you want to see no more barriers between the sizes?

Mia

I mean, I would like to see no more barriers between the sizes. But I think when you are launching such a transformative campaign that wants to change the way people shop and you have a consumer that has been basically trained that they only have their sizes online, you have to do something to make sure that those clothes are super accessible for them. And again, the same issue with the marketing of the campaign, put those sizes as front and center as possible to raise awareness with that consumer that they could get used to and they can get comfortable shopping for their sizes in stores.

Virginia

Thats a great point. They didn't really spend any time on the emotional piece of this and the trauma that a lot of people have about trying to shop in stores. So if you're used to not even thinking of the store as a place you go, or you only go in to buy swimsuit for your kid, they needed to actually welcome in fat folks and say, “We are excited you're here. This is no longer place where you’re going to be  be discriminated against.”

Mia

It's not only an awareness thing, but it's also just a practical marketing thing that we need. They needed to see their clothes front and center. And while I think overall, we should have all of our sizes together and be able to shop together, I think there needs to be a transition process when you are raising awareness with the consumer and that consumer is learning new habits, and saying “I can get comfortable in the store.” We've seen it happen with other retailers, where there's just not enough done to make sure that that consumer knows that this is a new habit. And a lot of times, the plus size consumer does not want to go in a store and ask those questions and be turned away, because we've all been through it.

Virginia

It feels miserable. 

Mia

Old Navy introduced plus sizes in 2004. They had them in stores for a bit. They pulled them out in 2007. Then they launched this campaign in 2018. Called “Size Yes” and that went in a bunch of stores. They pulled them out again. So now they're coming back with BODEQUALITY and then they're pulling out of what they say is 75 stores.

Virginia

Yeah, it's feeling a lot like a bad relationship. It's not a great cycle we're in with that brand. But as you're pointing out, it's not just Old Navy. Should we talk a little more broadly about other companies that have sort of done similar things?

Mia

The one example that garnered a lot of attention, and also was really sad, was Loft pulled plus sizes in 2018. And they had no announcement. Someone on Twitter just @’ed them and was like, “Hey, are you pulling plus sizes?” And they're like, “yeah, basically.”

Again, I don't think that Loft did enough to work with fit models to get sizing right. They also didn't market it really. But a lot of people did rely on Loft for great plus size workwear and then that got pulled and just sort of vanished from stores and and online and and they completely discontinued it.

It's also the way they do it, without announcement. I think that was why that Wall Street Journal article got so much attention, too. They were going to try to, I imagine, go a little under the radar about pulling it from the stores. Then American Eagle did something similar. I believe this was in 2016, they rolled out a 00 to 24 for all their denim, they were going to carry all the sizes in stores. They had some signage in stores that “we've got your size,” but a campaign was needed to let consumers know who were used to shopping online for their size, that they would be able to go in store in and show those sales. And then not only did they pull them out of stores, but they just stopped making over a size 20. 

Virginia

I get why brands pull it quietly because they're hoping not to have the PR nightmare that inevitably results. But why do you think they don't communicate it better from the start? Why aren't they saying, “we are so happy to have fat customers? We are so happy to center you in the store?”

Mia

I think one, they're dealing with a consumer that they've never marketed to before. And they don't really have the tools to do that. They don't know what's going to speak to that consumer. It's also fatphobia, right? The brand doesn't want to center fat people as their customer. They have to put everybody together in order for it to be okay. Otherwise they’re associated with just plus sized clothing. That's like this whole other beast, right? It's not an intense fatphobia, but it's just this general marketing fatphobia, right? That we can't have just fat people on signage. We can't just talk about plus sizes. We have to bring everybody in because we don't want our brand to be just about plus sizes.

Virginia

I think it speaks to how much we need thin allies speaking up, because I think they're doing this because they think their thin customers don't want to shop in the same place as the fat ladies. I remember talking to someone who's in that middle ground space (high end of straight sizes low end of plus sizes) and she was asking for advice on where to shop. I suggested a couple of brands like Eloquii or a couple of brands like that, that are primarily plus sizes, and she was so offended. She was like, “I don't need to shop in those kinds of stores. I haven't let myself go that much yet.” Which is overt fatphobia, but I think that psychology is something the fashion industry has taught us and it's something that consumers perpetuate. That feeds into these decisions on how they communicate stuff about sizing.

Mia

Can I share a little story about Madewell and Abercrombie and Fitch—a little comparison? So, Madewell, almost all of their styles of denim used to go to their size 37 and that was equivalent to let's say, about a woman's 24. And you could go and search their jeans, and put in your size, and you could shop that denim online. They didn't have extended sizes in stores, but you could go online and find almost any style of jean in plus size in there.

Then they pulled the plus sizes off online without any announcement. So you would just go and not see it, right? Other influencers picked up on this, and people were talking about it. And they came out and apologized for not having announced this, but said they were going to be launching a specific plus size line that was going to be a better fit. 

Okay, so we waited. They came out with their plus sizes. And you know, some some styles are great, but the denim is really different. It's a totally different fit, not necessarily a great fit. There are some people that are happy with that. But there are some people that are not quite happy with it. I was personally not happy with it, and I used to buy Madewell denim all the time. And now you'll find one or two different styles that are plus size, many times they're sold out. So that's a situation where they actually tried to market it directly to the plus size consumer. But the fits are a little off, and you can see this on their reviews of their denim. But it's interesting that they're trying to do something good there. 

[Virginia’s Note: For more on why and how Madewell denim has gone wrong, see Jeans Science Part 3.]

On the on the other side is Abercrombie. And I know a lot of fat people have a problem with Abercrombie because of terrible stuff in their past. But they now have every pair of denim up to a size 37. Again, not in stores! But it's a much easier shopping experience online than going to a separate section of an online retailer and looking for a particular style. I think most retailers just don't really know what to do. And none of them are doing it very well.

Virginia

I'm glad to know Abercrombie is an option people can be aware of because it’s certainly a brand I had written off years ago due to extreme body toxicity.

But it's good to know when your shopping options are so limited. I wrote a bit about the Madewell saga in my jeans science series last year that I'll link to because that used to be my go-to brand for years. As soon as I crossed over to a 34 it all changed. Nothing fit right. It was shocking to have experienced buying the same style of jeans for so long, and then to go one size up and find it was much worse. Lower quality, fell apart, everything was wrong with it. And it fit worse. It was really stark. So, it's a mess everywhere.

How are you thinking about that fashion activism now? Have we learned anything from this Old Navy saga? Or is it just like, yep, we knew clothes are tough?

Mia

 I didn't have a lot of brand trust with Old Navy. They also excluded plus from sales and promotions.

Virginia

That feels like it shouldn't be legal, but okay. 

Mia

Right. So they are saying now that even when there's in-store sales, that the promotions will still apply to the extended sizes, even though you can't actually get them in some of their stores. It's very confusing. I continue to watch Old Navy and wait for them to do better, as they've made so much money off the plus size consumer for so many years. I'm old enough to remember that and so they've made a lot of money off of the fat consumer, and they should know better what we need, because they have all the data.

So I think that fat activism and fashion means continuing to demand that stores extend their sizes, that they put us on the rack. And that they do better marketing and outreach to the plus sized consumer.

Virginia

I’ll also make a plug for thin listeners: This is a topic we really need allyship on. They need to stop thinking they're gonna scare off their thin customers by supporting fat customers. So thin people can be asking brands for this, too. You can say this is informing your decision to support a brand or not. Because I think that is a huge hurdle we need to get the industry over. 

Mia

It's going to take years, but there's already been some shifts so we just need to keep pushing and keep being vocal about it and keep asking questions because the demand is there. The average size of the American woman is a size 16. So we need to keep being vocal about that. They need to keep extending the sizes.

Virginia

Oh, one brand I wanted to ask you about, just quickly—I feel like Target is doing a better job lately? I'm not hearing as much discussion of this, but I am exclusively shopping at Target these days, in the plus section.

Mia

I'm so glad you mentioned this because I just got information that Knox Rose and Universal Thread are now providing extended sizing in stores. So keep a lookout for that. I haven't seen anything official announced and it's certainly not in all Targets but yeah I'm looking forward to seeing more. I also have seen their plus size sections expand in multiple places whereas I saw them shrinking before. I see them expanding now, but I haven't seen anything official on that.

Virginia

I think it's totally hit or miss store by store. So, it's a maybe to keep an eye on. I'm not giving any brands a standing ovation, but…

Mia

No, no. I also don't want to put all of it on the plus size consumer—and I hope that I'm not making anybody feel like that. But if you do see brands introducing extended sizes, give it a try! Like, absolutely give it a try. We have to try other things in order to get them to keep those extended sizes.

There are a lot of reasons why people don't want to try new things.  Financially, it's not always possible, especially when you don't have anywhere to try something on. But I would encourage those who are kind of curious when a brand rolls out extended sizes to check those out. We're not used to having so much variety, but if we don't shop the stuff, it's not going to stay.

Virginia

It's true.

Well, I am so grateful that you are doing this. Mia’s Instagram stories are just a wealth of information, really intensive reporting and collecting of stories and data points. It's a ton of work. It's a ton of work that you're doing on this. It's really appreciated by the community. So I'm really glad to have you here to explain all of this to us.

Butter for Your Burnt Toast

Mia

Okay, so I have never had very good luck with tinted SPF. Although I really like wearing a tinted mineral SPF. I find I'm 37 And my skin is textured. I have redness and discoloration, things like that. So I like a little tinted moisturizer, but it doesn't always look the best on me. And this primer, the silicone-free priming moisturizer from Good Molecules is $12 and it feels amazing on your face. To begin with, you just leave this on, let it dry, then apply the tinted SPF with a beauty blender. I think you'll see a much better application for that that tinted SPF and it'll it'll stay in place. It won't become an oil slick. I just can't recommend this enough. And it's $12!

Virginia

I am going to recommend a fun summer beach read. My friend KJ Dell’Antonia has a new novel out. It's called In Her Boots. It is such a fun read. It's about a woman whose life has blown up in various ways. And she's coming back to her hometown to try to put it back together. There are many great side characters. If you like quirky, small town life type of novels, this is a really fun one.

And KJ actually reached out to me last year when she was finishing up her edits, and asked me to do a sensitivity read on the manuscript because there is one character who is struggling with diet culture, and some disordered eating themes. And KJ has thin privilege. She was like, “This is not my world and I want to know if I'm getting this right or wrong.” She had done a beautiful job. I gave her a few notes, but you know, it was 90% there. And I love to see that from a very mainstream commercial fiction writer who's not deliberately saying this is a story about this issue, but just thinking “I've got this in the background, how am I handling it?” Just to know that someone took that care is lovely, I think.

It's also a really fun book and she does feature an amazing pair of cowboy boots and KJ has gotten the real boots and has been wearing them on her book tour. So if you're a cowboy boots fan or fun beach read fan check out In Her Boots by KJ Dell’Antonia.

Well, thank you again, Mia! Remind listeners where they can find you and support your work because this is a ton of labor you are doing to research all of this for us.

Mia

Thank you and it's a lot of labor of my audience who I crowdsource from. So come and join the conversation @MiaO'Malley on Instagram and we we share a lot of things and I do my best to give everybody all the info and they can make their own choices.

Virginia

I mean, you were just covering pool floats for bigger bodies. You really run the gamut.