#224 CTO & Co-Owner 37signals, David Heinemeier Hansson: Perfect Flow

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Jan 6, 2025

David Heinemeier Hansson, CTO and co-owner of 37signals and creator of Ruby on Rails, discusses optimizing life for joy and productivity. He critiques mainstream work culture, highlighting how open offices and overmanagement hinder flow states. David advocates for prioritizing mindfulness and personal fulfillment over endless work hours. He shares insights on racing as a meditative experience and emphasizes that true success lies in meaningful connections and authentic passions, not just material wealth.

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ANECDOTE

Le Mans > Software

David Heinemeier Hansson's Le Mans racing accomplishment impressed people more than his software achievements.
This highlights the public's fascination with unique pursuits.

INSIGHT

Driving and Flow State

David Heinemeier Hansson finds driving calming and conducive to thinking, similar to the "default mode network" concept.
TikTok videos use visual stimulation to aid audio content absorption.

INSIGHT

Le Mans Intensity

The 24 Hours of Le Mans is a prestigious endurance race, mixing different car classes.
The challenge comes from G-forces during turns and braking, not top speed.

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Guest: David Heinemeier Hansson, CTO & co-owner of 37signals and creator of Ruby on Rails

37signals CTO David Heinemeier Hansson has organized his life around his passions: Writing, racing sports cars, and coding. “ Why aren't we all doing that?” he wonders. “Why aren't we all trying to optimize our life in such a way that much of it is enjoyable?”

Part of the problem, David argues, is that it’s impossible to find a creative or productive flow inside of mainstream work culture. Open offices, managerial over-hiring, and sloppy scheduling prevents people from reaching a flow state.

“40 hours a week is plenty than most people,” he says. “... So many people today are focused on just adding more and more hours. They're not thinking about how those hours are spent.”

Chapters:

(01:19) - 24 Hours of Le Mans
(06:48) - Amateurs in sports car racing
(10:54) - Flow and meditation
(15:25) - Mundane bulls**t
(18:14) - Optimizing for flow
(21:09) - Calendars and open offices
(24:30) - Full-time managers
(29:06) - Small companies
(32:20) - Selfishness and work
(40:21) - Taking other people’s money
(45:43) - Temptation
(49:49) - Moderately rich
(55:19) - “The day I became a millionaire”
(58:56) - The hassle
(01:03:58) - Achieving the dream
(01:08:34) - Shopify and Tobias Lütke
(01:14:50) - Trade-offs and downsides
(01:18:43) - The impact of Ruby on Rails
(01:22:02) - “I love being wrong”
(01:25:37) - DEI and illegal drugs
(01:29:49) - Not hiring
(01:30:35) - What “grit” means to David

Mentioned in this episode: TikTok, Minecraft, Mario Kart, Formula One, NASCAR, Lewis Hamilton, the NBA, Tesla Model S, Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, Steve McQueen, Jason Fried, Tetris, Bullshit Jobs: A Theory by David Graeber, Elon Musk and Twitter, the Dunbar number, Zappos, Google, Adam Smith, Stripe, Meta, Jeff Bezos, Basecamp, Zapier, 1Password, GitHub, SpaceX, private jets, Aesop, the Pagani Zonda, the Porsche Boxster, Lamborghini, Coco Chanel, LeBron James, Hey, Steve Jobs, Michael Arrington and TechCrunch, Y Combinator, Dr. Thomas Sowell,Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn, Grit by Angela Duckworth, and LEGO.

Links:

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This episode was edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm