The Expat Money Show - With Mikkel Thorup

258: How To Underthrow The Government - Max Borders

Aug 23, 2023

Max Borders discusses the limitations of policy and election for societal change, emphasizing the need for leaving and creating something new. The chapter also explores the issue of tax base flight from Canada and the importance of good governance in attracting expats. They debate the qualities of a contest winner for constitutional law and government and explore the concept of natural law in establishing just laws.

53:09

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Episode guests

Max Borders

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Quick takeaways

A Constitution of Consent based on explicit consent rather than being born into a jurisdiction would prioritize principles of nonviolence, integrity, stewardship, compassion, pluralism, and reason, allowing individuals to opt into systems aligning with their values and goals.

Subversive innovation through creativity, entrepreneurship, and innovation can be more effective in bringing about societal change than traditional methods like politics, policy, and punditry, as exemplified by disruptive technologies like Bitcoin and Uber.

Deep dives

Creating a Constitution of Consent

Max Borders is working on the concept of a Constitution of Consent, a constitution that is based on explicit consent rather than being born into a jurisdiction. This constitution would prioritize the principles of nonviolence, integrity, stewardship, compassion, pluralism, and reason. The goal is to create a constitutional framework that allows for individual freedom and experimentation, where people can opt into systems that align with their values and goals. The Constitution of Consent contest, offering a $20,000 prize, invites participants to contribute their ideas and designs for a constitution that embodies these principles.

Introduction

4min

The Limitations of Reform and the Need for Exit

18min

Tax Base Flight, Fossil Fuel Sector, and Expats Guide on Moving to Mexico

5min

Leaving One Jurisdiction and Finding Another

16min

Debating the Qualities of a Contest Winner and Views on Government

3min

Exploring Natural Law and Virtues for a Civil Society

4min

Contest, Bitcoin Markets, and Course on Privacy and Bitcoin

2min

Today’s guest is Max Borders, author of the book Underthrow: How Jefferson's Dangerous Idea Will Spark a New Revolution. Max has been an outspoken supporter of decentralized systems and individual freedom and has authored four books deeply exploring humanity's movement toward societies of decentralized governance. Today, Max joins the show to explain his radical idea to “underthrow” the government through what he calls “subversive innovation.”

TODAY'S CONVERSATION WITH MAX BORDERS

Listen to Max describe how he followed his yearning to use creativity and entrepreneurship to affect societal change to write about the topic of decentralization.
Hear Max explain how he hopes to inspire people to underthrow the government, using what he refers to as “subversive innovation”
Max and I discuss how many libertarians often find themselves stuck thinking about policy while neglecting to make the needed changes in their own lives
Tune in to hear Max’s breakdown of the 3 options for affecting change in society and which he feels is superior
Listen to Max describe how governments have evolved from sovereign entities into an “extended politburo” run by government and corporate interests.
Learn about Max’s “Constitution of Consent” contest and how he aims for it to inspire real-life experiments in decentralized self-governance.
Hear Max lay out his ideas of just how we can navigate this era of unreason and untruth by implementing the ideas he discusses.

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HOW TO FIND MAX BORDERS’ WORK

Head to Underthrow.org to find Max’s writing and the Constitution of Consent contest Follow Max Borders on Twitter

CONCLUSION

I had a blast talking to Max about his ideas, and I simply love that his focus is all about how to make them work in the real world, not simply in hypothetical fantasyland. As I often discuss, far too many great, freedom-loving libertarians that I run into wind up stuck in the realms of philosophy and policy. This program and my work as an expat consultant are all about taking actionable steps to achieve more liberty for yourself and your family, and I’m glad that Max’s ideas fall right in line with that. I hope all enjoyed this conversation as much as I did!

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This Is Your Invitation to The Hub

Join The Hub - Our Paid Members Only Community

Into The Amazon—Then Straight To The Beach

Brazil Tour August 2 - 9, 2025