Prepping for Collapse vs Building the Future

In this thought-provoking discussion, we analyze why apocalyptic and “prepper” mindsets have taken hold more than acknowledging the coming “dark age.” Apocalyptic visions absolve personal responsibility, making them memetically potent yet useless. Preparism feeds individualist control fantasies, not actual resilience.

In contrast, “dark age” outlooks force confronting the future to shape it for one’s community and posterity. We see figures like Curtis Yarvin and some organized religious groups taking this road less traveled. Ultimately more people must build alternative structures, not just bunkers, to inherit the future.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] He thinks that that individual should be chosen based on their proven competence and if they're capable to be cycled out that that would cause negative effects on, on the society, like they would be cycled out for the wrong reason.

And he's not insane for thinking this. I mean, if we look historically, like the two, I think greatest figures in demographic history were both betrayed by their own countries.

Would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: By the way, did you know that the, the phrase toxic masculinity came out of the mythopoetic men's movement.

It was actually a description of the type of bad behavior that comes out of a society that suppresses masculinity.

Malcolm Collins: Interesting. Yes. But, we're here to talk about something else.

But I am very excited to be here with you today. Yeah. So, what I wanted to talk about, because this is something I was thinking about, where we often point out that humanity is heading into a dark age, but we also often really complain about apocalypticism in the Judeo Christian canon, [00:01:00] right? So if you look historically within the Judeo Christian tradition, there have repeatedly been trends towards apocalyptic approaches to the world.

Yeah. Which is to say you can look at the Millerist movement early in the U. S. There was this movement in the seventies. It was some like number code in the Bible. There was Y two K, there was and this number coded the vitals, the, the Mayan calendar one after that. Oh yeah, the Mayan calendar one.

Yeah. We just as, as the Judeo-Christian culture is incredibly, and it doesn't seem to happen with Themic culture as much as specifically, which is part of the Judeo-Christian tradition. So what I really mean is Jews and Christians really, really, really, really susceptible to apocalyptic. We love

us

Simone Collins: some edge times.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And these memetic sets of somebody who's like, well, aren't your views apocalyptic? Because you say we are headed towards the dark age. And I actually pointed out something that I don't think a lot of people realize, which is that dark ages, the belief that we are about to head towards a significant and dramatic [00:02:00] decline in culture.

is actually fairly rare historically in the Western canon. thEre are people who have said things are worse today than they were in the past, that it's very different than dark ageism. Warning that things are about to take a dramatic decline downwards, but one that you have power over and can affect.

Simone Collins: Right, because instead the view is that there's going to be a dramatic End. Just an end. It's end times. It's not, it's not dark times.

Malcolm Collins: And so why is this? Because I, because I think this is very interesting. Why, why there's this, this huge split here. And I think it's because of well two things. The mimetic viability of each of these ideas.

And two, what they imply for the individual. Right. So the biggest, if I was going to like sum it all up in one little piffy quote, it's that apocalypticism removes [00:03:00] responsibility from the individual. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas dark ageism increases the responsibility on the individual. Oh,

Simone Collins: that's where you're going with this.

Okay. Nice.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, it's, it's, it's true, right? If you believe that society is about to head in a dramatically downwards direction, Yeah. You don't

Simone Collins: need to save money. You don't need to build anything. You don't need to invest in the future. You know, you, you can invest all in the now.

Malcolm Collins: Well this, no, sorry.

That's if you believe in apocalypticism. That's if you believe in apocalypticism.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Sorry. Yeah, so if you believe in apocalypticism, you don't have to do s**t, like, you can do whatever you want, right, like, because the world is either going to be destroyed, or, the only thing you need to invest in, if you're an apocalyptic, is spreading the apocalyptic

Simone Collins: message.

Yeah, getting attention, oh, that's so hard.

Malcolm Collins: Well, it's not just getting attention. Like, obviously that appeals to the individual, but it also is memetically useful. Mm hmm. A memetic set that is spreading via apocalyptic messaging is going out there and telling people, Okay [00:04:00] just believe in the message.

That's all you need to do to prevent it, is believe in the message. And the number one place you see this AI apocalypticism. And if you want to see our videos on how unlikely AI apocalypticism is, you can look at our grabby, our reverse grabby alien theorem video, which I think to me is the most compelling argument I've ever seen on the point which is basically to say, if it was this easy to create a a paperclip maximizing AI.

We would see them out there in space everywhere. And if the reason we don't see them is because of the anthropic principle, i. e. we only wouldn't see them in a planet that hadn't been destroyed by them, well then we're about to see them, so it's irrelevant that we're working on them. Right? And there's a bunch of other answers, but, you know, watch the video if you're interested in that.

But anyway, uh, the, the, the point here being is that if I, for example, think that, that AI apocalypses are inaccurate, right? Then I don't need to invest in the future. I don't really need to do anything other than general hedonism. And [00:05:00] I can spend all of the money I raise at the financial organization, all of my time as an individual attempting to convert people to this movement.

But it's quite the different from, from dark ages. People who are like, society is declining right now, we are about to enter a dark age. Because there, I am burdened with both. Raising the, the flag about this while also building my own family to be stable in this environment and promoting social policy, technological policy, and technological innovation in a way that lowers the either extent of the dark age or the severity of the dark age.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I, it, I wonder is, is there like a. Catholic versus Protestant. No, because there's tons of apocalyptic Protestant groups. I'm just trying to get this American tendency specifically. And I haven't really seen this [00:06:00] in other cultures of the, perhaps that's just due to my cultural ignorance. They get like really excited about survivalism.

I mean, in the United States, there are. There are entire industries around, you know, the, you know, building up years worth of supplies of food with your MREs that you have in your bunker and all your guns and your bullets. And like, you know, people are like, they enjoy, there is an industry that is definitely built around the enjoyment of preparing for a dark age.

I'm being ready to go through it. What, what did you, what did, what culture drives that? Because I can't say, oh, like that's clearly Protestant or that's clearly Catholic or anything, right? Where is, where is that coming from? I mean, why, what is it that makes someone a dark ageist rather than an apocalypticist?

Malcolm Collins: Well, I, so, so apocalyptic mindsets, I mean, I think through that you can see how appealing apocalyptic mindsets are, especially, and I think that groups that's most susceptible to them are Jewish groups and Protestant Christian groups. And they, [00:07:00] they lead to different actions within these two communities within the ultra individualistic and rural Protestant Christian groups, they lead to this bunker building, right?

But. I don't think that there's any realistic vision for a societal collapse in which this bunker building is really a high utility action. Not one that we're going to survive. I mean, there's some, like, nuclear apocalypses and stuff like that. Yeah, but this is why I say

Simone Collins: it seems to me like it's purely recreational, because as you say, that's not really how it's going to play out.

Right,

Malcolm Collins: but it is susceptible and seductive as an ideological set. Now this is a big problem. If you're from a cultural group and you know, this ideological set is severely seductive to your cultural group. You need to sort of offset all ideas that are associated with it. You and I may indulge in preps, which we definitely do to an extent.

I mean, I, I , but I understand that it is largely recreational and [00:08:00] aesthetic.

Simone Collins: There's some useful bits. No, actually, what am I thinking? I have Faraday bags full of electronics because I'm so convinced there will be a solar flare. No, come on. That's useful.

Malcolm Collins: It depends

Simone Collins: on if there's a solar flare, but

Malcolm Collins: Right, but that level of preparism.

Like I get it right. I but I I think that when you're trying to prepare for actual likely futures for our species. It can really over index you towards futures, which is really interesting. So pure apocalypticism, right? Pure apocalypticism removes individual responsibility. Yes. Whereas Preparism is a seductive thing, which is different than Dark Ageism or Pure Apocalypticism in that it rewards radical self ownership meaningfully in a way that society just doesn't.

Simone Collins: Okay, so you're really trying to separate out [00:09:00] Preparism and you're trying to say it's not Dark Ageism? I would probably say it's just poorly educated Dark Ageism. I don't think that... No, I don't think

Malcolm Collins: it is. No, so it's not dark ageism, it's not apocalypticism. Apocalypticism is about removing responsibility from the individual and being able to spend all your time on proselytization.

Sure, sure, and we agree on that. Preparism is about a world, a fantasy of a world in which your individual actions can matter in and of themselves in regards to family preparation or family What's the word I'm looking for? Fortification. So, in a prepperist fantasy, right, the things that I do for my family, the trees I plant to grow food, the et cetera, et cetera, there are chickens, everything like that.

Like, these things do matter to some extent. Right? But they do not actually protect my family in a meaningful context. I think there is a fantasy, especially among men, that these [00:10:00] things will matter in a meaningful context. And that's what preparism is. It is a world in which individual actions, in which this fucked up society we live in, doesn't matter.

Because you as an individual trying to do what's best for your family, while ignoring trying to change society or trying to create any sort of larger community, Is a thing of genuine value.

Simone Collins: Okay. So in other words, it's a, it's cope when you feel disempowered by society and you still want to feel empowered.

So you're basically like, Oh, don't worry. It doesn't matter that I'm not empowered in society because society is going to fall apart and then I'll be empowered. But what you're saying, implying then about dark ageism is that it is someone who is preparing for. A, a worse future, but one in which they are shaping society going forward.

Is that

Malcolm Collins: correct?

Dark ageism is, well, I mean, it's, it's about trying to save all of society.

Simone Collins: Yes. The difference is a dark ageist isn't just trying to save their own family. They're not just creating their [00:11:00] own bunker. They're saying, okay, society's not moving in a good direction. I'm going to create an alternative economy.

I'm going to create an alliance of families, I'm going to create a city state, I'm going to create a new type of company or government and that is very different from saying here's my bunker or here's my complex. Is that right? Yes. Hmm. I don't really know, aside from you, who's doing

Malcolm Collins: that? I think a lot of people are, I think a lot

Simone Collins: of prep is doing that.

Cause he's like, we're going to bring people to Mars, blah, blah, blah. Right. He is actually trying to build an alternative future society, or at least a different kind of future society. I'd also

Malcolm Collins: say that a lot of preppers do this as well. The people who are called preppers, like there's two categories of preppers, people who are only interested in their own family and, and, and, and thinking about that and people who are looking at a larger societal level while understanding that if they don't have a community, it is likely irrelevant for most realistic preppers.

Scenarios. And, and these are two very different things. Can [00:12:00]

Simone Collins: you give me examples aside from you and Elon Musk of people who are on the, on the, the dark ages side and not just prevarism. So they're actually trying to build something for

Malcolm Collins: society. There aren't a lot of famous people who would fall into this category.

Simone Collins: You would need to give me maybe even a hypothetical example of an. Not famous person, but what they would be doing

Malcolm Collins: like how we have friends who are doing this. They are specifically moving to networks of like minded families that intend to share responsibilities that intend to build systems like this among each other.

If, if you are doing anything like this outside of a network of like minded families, it is, uh, like a personal indulgence, like a fancy car or something like that. All right. So

Simone Collins: I'm going to say a lot of Orthodox Jewish groups and a lot of trad calf groups. But I don't think that a lot of our friends are like this.

I think that they're more along the bunker end of the spectrum because they're really just thinking about it for the context of their families. They're not building any larger [00:13:00] culture that's scalable. They're not creating any infrastructure governing wise or economy wise that would bring them forward.

Whereas I can see with. Various old orthodox Jewish groups and like trad cats in general, that there is there, there is something that would start to pick up and build an influence in a future world. Does that make sense to you? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's interesting though. What, what we hadn't come into this conversation with, which is really helping me see things differently is the difference between individualistic preparism and a sort of noblesse oblige take on collapse, which is.

Now I must rebuild. Or even an excitement about rebuilding. And .

Malcolm Collins: Well, well, no, I, I'd say it's more than that. It's a, it's a individualistic prep. Realism versus community oriented prep Bullism. Mm-Hmm. , are you prepping for your house or are you prepping for your church? Yeah. Are you? Yeah. Or synagogue.

Right. These are two very different things to be prepping around. Yeah. [00:14:00] And they require very different types of preparism, one of which is actually of utility if you want your family to survive intergenerationally, rather than just you, yourself, barely cling to life. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that makes sense. And I was

Malcolm Collins: thinking about this In and of itself.

Right, like, if you're just clinging to life a bit longer in a world that is collapsing, like, you have achieved nothing of meaning. Even, even if you, even if you have kids, right, you have achieved a little bit more of meaning then. But if your kids don't have people to marry, if they don't have a larger community, if they don't have a larger...

a seed of a socioeconomic structure that can come out of the collapse, then you haven't done that much, especially given all of the things that you could be optimizing for, given the, the privileges every human has access to today in this last stage of abundance.

Simone Collins: And the opportunities at play. Like the fact that you really, really, really could matter to a large number of future generations.

So that's, that's interesting. Now where do you, where do you put Curtis Yarvin on [00:15:00] this spectrum? Because now given what you've said, I feel like he's maybe more... At first I thought he was just on the top. He's a dark ageist. He is a dark ageist, and he is like not an individualistic dark ageist at all.

No, not at all.

Malcolm Collins: I, I disagree with his... thesis on how to fix society, but he is definitely taking the harder route of the potential routes. And he also is a real intellectual. If you look at his work, as I often said, if you look at like Eliezer Yudkowski's work or you,

Simone Collins: you, you, Oh yeah, that there's the, there's the, yeah.

So Curtis Yearman.

Malcolm Collins: He's actually kind of an idiot. Like he's just like genuinely not like, an intellectual powerhouse. What a deep, deep, deep

Simone Collins: apocalypticist.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But he, he needs that to justify his lifestyle and decisions, whereas with Curtis Yarvin I don't agree with everything he says, but he's very clearly an intellectual powerhouse.

If you look at his stuff, he, he clearly has really thought through things and understand things. I just culturally have disagreements with him.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but I mean, more in the sense that like, Your [00:16:00] faction will eventually be competing with, with his faction and other factions.

Malcolm Collins: I don't even think so. I think his faction would easily fold into our faction.

So his preference for monarchism isn't really that different from our factions preference from controlled and cyclable. So while we individually may have differences, so let's, let's explain what I mean by controlled and cyclable dictatorships. I think governance structures that consolidate power are usually the best governing structures, but that power needs to be expellable the moment it becomes corrupt or inefficient.

which is what all of the governing hypotheses that we work on are intended to do. I think that's what the U. S. government was originally intended to do. Although it's also intended to split power a bit more, so that's a bit of an inaccurate statement. But yeah, I think that the best governing structures are do you have responsibility lie on a single individual or a single small group of individuals?

But that [00:17:00] individual group needs to be cyclable out whereas the core difference between us and yarvin is he doesn't believe that He thinks that that individual should be chosen based on their proven competence and if they're capable to be cycled out that that would cause negative effects on, on the society, like they would be cycled out for the wrong reason.

And he's not insane for thinking this. I mean, if we look historically, like the two, I think greatest figures in demographic history were both betrayed by their own countries. Demographic

Simone Collins: history. What do you mean by that? Democratic. I said, Oh, democratic.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Democratic. I might've said demographic. I don't know.

A democratic history. So specifically Winston Churchill and some mystical ease. Both were betrayed after saving their democracies, because democracies are prone to do things like that when a single individual is so obviously right. And so obviously has an understanding of how the, the democracy actually functions and how to make the world a better place while they are in an intense threat to the powers that [00:18:00] be within that society.

And so that society from its media to its other, its other power players to its other elite, every single motivation conceivable to try to get rid of that individual and to try to move them out of the society. And in the case of you know, Semistocles, he was exiled. And he actually ended up, it's really funny, a lot of people don't know this, like the story after Semistocles.

So not only did he save all of Greek from the Persians in the Greco Persian Wars very easily, like he, he tricked them for people who don't know his story yet that there's this amazing moment where he essentially tricked the Persians into surrounding a collection of Greek fleets because all of the Greek city states hated each other and some were planning to basically go back home and so he needed them to be surrounded so that they couldn't retreat so that they could all fight together.

Like, the level of cunning that's required to do that, but then he got expelled from Athens afterwards because they're like, Oh, the you know, the [00:19:00] average citizen likes this guy too much. You know, they say, Oh, he's a populist. Anyway, he then went to, to this actually this region of Persia that actually had holidays and statues dedicated to him hundreds of years after his death, because he did such a good job as a local governor of this like irrelevant region of like, South west Persia, I think.

So he actually went to the enemies and was like, Okay, I'm not gonna help you with like any war thing, but I can be like a local governing person. Or it might have been Greek islands. I don't know, but anyway. So that's what happened to him. Winston Churchill, for people who aren't familiar with him, you know, he Predicted everything in regards to World War Two.

He predicted everything in regards to what was going to happen if Britain withdrew from India too quickly. He was not against them withdrawing entirely, but he's like, if you withdraw too quickly this is going to have really negative consequences. The, the number of deaths involved in the war that was basically, so.

If I may give a bit of history here, what happened here is Britain, driven by the pussies who decided, oh, we're going to be anti [00:20:00] colonialists, they withdrew all at once before the Muslims had a chance to migrate to Pakistan and the Hindis had a chance to migrate to India with, cause that was the idea.

You're going to have a. Muslim state and a Hindi state and as a result there was a, an incredibly bloody war that was completely unnecessary. And that could have been avoided if people had listened to Winston Churchill. .

 Just as a side note here. I am not saying that if Winston Churchill didn't have godlike powers and could do whatever he wanted, he wouldn't have kept. India in the British empire, but when he knew that India had to leave the British empire, which he did accept at one point, he also saw it would lead to this war that could be prevented.

And he was rushed to release India before he put in the steps to prevent the war. Also, I'm not saying he didn't have racist views against Hindus. He absolutely did.

Malcolm Collins: Potentially, but it is, I think just if you look at history, I think my reading of events is he saw in the same way he [00:21:00] saw was World War II where he kept warning everyone before World War II for people who don't know this, Winston Churchill's biography actually came out before he was elected prime minister, before World War II.

Yeah, he like assumed he'd peaked. Yeah, he thought his career was over because he had, and how did he destroy his career? He destroyed his career. By constantly telling everyone, this Hitler guy is a problem. This Hitler guy is a problem. You don't

Simone Collins: know how big this guy's a bummer. Stop Churchill.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And people were like, Hey man, you're being

Simone Collins: super against appeasement.

Yeah. You know, to be fair, he didn't have a perfect track record. You know, there was the, he got like obsessed with weird tanks or something in world war one and didn't work out, but like, you know, but still he called that one really clever s**t. I mean, it was clever. It just, you know, it was like. Inventing, you know, Webvan before its time,

Malcolm Collins: you know?

Well, okay. I mean, he was really important to the strategy. God, what was it called? Operation Fortitude.

, I'm referring to the giant fake a D-Day [00:22:00] operation that he helped organize. I don't remember this. Yeah. It was as successful as it was because of a huge campaign.

So they had inflatable tanks. They had inflatable. This

Simone Collins: one. Yeah. The decoy, the decoy.

Malcolm Collins: But it wasn't just decoys. They also had the dead body of a British high level with like

Simone Collins: the code or something like that. It was like, Oh, we're going to invade in this place. We're totally not invading in. Yeah. That was so smart.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Side note here. I had to take pride in, between Simone and I, every single one of our grandfathers participated . In D day.

Malcolm Collins: They did some really clever s**t. And then he helped a British citizens get really on board. So if you go to Britain, you will see these cut down fences, these iron gates all over Britain, like snipped off. And the question is why, why would you do that? Right? Well, so the reason he did that was because he told people, you give us your pots, your pants, like any wrought iron you have, and we'll use it for the war.

It was [00:23:00] completely unusable in the war. Then most of it's at the bottom of the ocean or lakes. Now they just dumped it. But it was really important and allowing the average citizen to feel connected and sort of sunk cost in the war itself, which was important in other types of regulations, like.

Eating less food so the food could go to the troops like feeling connected to your kids and everything like that, which helps keep morale up during the bombings and in situations like that. Which is so crucial. He did just so many, I think, absolutely brilliant things. And had so much absolutely brilliant foresight and he was completely stabbed in the back politically after the victory.

 And, and I think that this is just the nature of democracies. You cannot be too successful at the politician in a democracy without being stabbed in the back. So I understand his intuition here. I just think the alternative is worse. Any sort of system in which an individual can [00:24:00] achieve power. And I think we see this even with people who I respect, like when I look at wealthy people who I respect, like, okay, they've achieved power.

They've basically become monarchs of their like little techno empires. Basically. Yeah. But after a while, they sort of seem to go a little crazy. No matter how well meaning they are. Like, I don't want to give names. I'm just saying that when individuals achieve this level of power and maintain it for like more than a 10 year period, they seem to begin to make decisions that no sane person would make.

And I think that decisions are driven not by them, But by the way, entourages build up around these sorts of individuals.

Simone Collins: They don't have anyone like. Whispering in their ear. Remember, you are mortal.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. By the way, what she's referring to is something that historically in Rome a specific type of slave cast was supposed to do for Caesars during military triumphs.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I can't remember if it was [00:25:00] in general or if it was like one specific guy had, like, had his man. Do that.

Malcolm Collins: Specific name or something, or then other people started copying him because it seemed funny because

Simone Collins: it was, then it'd be probably came this like sick, humble brag flex. It's

Malcolm Collins: like, yeah, I don't worry.

That constantly reminds me. I'm not a God.

Simone Collins: It keeps me so humble. I'm so blessed.

Malcolm Collins: I'm just so f*****g

Simone Collins: humble. So humble. Don't worry. I have a slave for that.

Malcolm Collins: It's fine. I have. Oh, don't worry. I'm not. Too arrogant. I've got a slave that reminds me I'm not a god. I'm covered on that front. I thought through that.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I'm a slave for that. It's fine.

Malcolm Collins: I can see how you would think I might be a god. I've had that problem before. I'm just not one. So the slave helps

Simone Collins: with that. But I really do think that there is an entourage problem. And I, I, I wonder how to get around that. I know this is way off topic for like, for, for dark [00:26:00] ageism, but you're right in that there is this sort of success delusion that comes, especially when you have like all these inner circles of, of yes, men who really, really, really.

Are incentivized to maintain their position in the hierarchy, not to give you good ideas or like make sure that you're not going off the rails, but to make sure that no one else is getting closer to you than they are. And how

Malcolm Collins: do you know how you do it? You don't have any friends. Hm? Spouse.

Simone Collins: You know, I really, I don't think, I don't, unless,

Malcolm Collins: oh, it's because I, so None of these people have, have, have solid spouses that are that different from the Well, yeah, or a spouse

Simone Collins: that they, the one that they respect and two that they work closely with.

It's just hard for me to think of a very, very wealthy, successful man who actually works closely to and listens to their spouse. Yeah, but if you look

Malcolm Collins: at history, you see this. Okay. And the founding fathers and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. You have, Churchill, for example, had a spouse who was there whispering in his ear

Simone Collins: always.

She was, she was a, she was a beautiful, wonderful [00:27:00] woman.

Malcolm Collins: No, but this, this matters. So you see what I'm saying? Even the examples I'm using, positive spouses who you perceive as your equal are critical to not going crazy when you have too much power for too long. Yeah. Because other than that, everyone is a minion.

A spouse, at least one who you really care about, is never a minion. Yeah, that's true. And they also don't have disaligned interests with you. So some people Yeah, they want you to succeed. The kid always has some benefit from you dying. Right. You know, whereas a spouse often does not, unless you're in something like the Chinese system and then that's the, you know, the Dowager Empress or something that's a negative situation to be in.

But that's, that's, I think just because socially and culturally, that's like a really, uh, non optimized optimization, I guess I'd say.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Interesting. So what is the takeaway or meaning or importance of [00:28:00] distinguishing between preppers, dark agers, and apocalypticists?

Malcolm Collins: Well, I think every individual, you know, culturally, if you're watching this, you're probably similar to me.

I have a prepper's instinct. I think you have a prepper's instinct. Prepperism can be fun, but remember it is a hobby. It is not Often useful for real societal downturns or the most likely societal downturns in which you will survive and your great grandchildren will survive.

Simone Collins: Oh, I see what you're doing.

So you're socially shaming individualistic prepperism and trying to take that instinct that a lot of people have and direct it in a constructive fashion, especially in an age at which we actually do believe that dark age is coming because we need people to build the future who aren't just Elon Musk because he's kind of busy.

Malcolm Collins: And then I think that there is apocalypticism and I think apocalypticism can only be beaten back by immediately and aggressively shaming it wherever you see it.

Simone Collins: How would you advise the [00:29:00] average person to shame an apocalypticist? Cause I mean, even we have like, there are people that we've met who've become apocalypticists.

And like, in the end, I feel like you and I are just like, Hey man, like, I hope you get through that. I mean, it's

Malcolm Collins: like talking with someone who's deeply oppressed. I think that's the key. Understand that apocalypticism is about avoiding personal responsibility, not about logic.

Simone Collins: So should we be, should we be acting differently around our apocalypticist friends and just be like, Hey.

Malcolm Collins: We shame them pretty aggressively. Okay. All right. I mean, apocalypticism personal responsibility. It's about saying. I am not responsible for the future outside of spreading this one meme that has infected my

Simone Collins: brain. No, I feel so embarrassed because in the past we've just been like really empathetic toward them and that's, that's actually pretty bad.

We should not do that anymore.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, we aren't outright mean, but I, I will say that if they're talking to me, they definitely get a sense that I think that they're pretty pathetic.

Simone Collins: I guess so, because you're that one kind of person where like, you just walk away from people at parties if you feel like they're not [00:30:00] useful, you just turn and you walk in the opposite direction and like, and you cut the conversation short.

So people like have no ambiguities to like how you feel about them

Malcolm Collins: because you just don't talk. It's like, what are you working on? How are you trying to make the world a better place? And if they're like,

Simone Collins: yeah, they start complaining and you're like, okay, great. And then you're like, Oh God, and then I, I'm sitting there talking with them uselessly.

I'm like,

Malcolm Collins: I know you're like,

Simone Collins: you have somewhere to be. Yeah. So, dear friends, if you've seen us do this, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Malcolm Collins: We're dealing with short timelines. We have to fix things and we have to prepare things for the next generation in the last age of opulence. Yeah. Yeah. Love you, Simone. Love you, too.

Simone Collins: Oh.

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