Are you morally ambitious enough? (with Rutger Bregman)
May 4, 2025
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Rutger Bregman, a historian and celebrated author, shifts the conversation on human nature from selfishness to optimism. He explores how environments can enhance our kindness and cooperation. The discussion dives into Universal Basic Income, contrasting mixed results in the US with successes in other countries. Bregman emphasizes the importance of pursuing work that meaningfully impacts society and harnessing moral ambition to create global change. He also highlights the need for better storytelling to align narratives with the truth about humanity.
Rutger Bregman's transformative journey illustrates a shift from viewing humanity as selfish to recognizing our inherent capacity for kindness and cooperation.
His latest book, 'Moral Ambition', urges individuals to cultivate altruistic aspirations that prioritize societal betterment over personal gain.
The establishment of the School for Moral Ambition aims to nurture talent towards tackling global issues through community-driven projects and collaboration.
Deep dives
Reframing Human Nature
The discussion revolves around the evolution of beliefs regarding human nature, as articulated by Rutger Bregman. Initially, he aligned with the view that humans are inherently selfish, wrapped in a thin layer of civilization, but later unearthed evidence suggesting a more cooperative essence. This shift led him to advocate policies like universal basic income, reflecting a fundamental belief in the potential goodness of humanity. Bregman posits that our perceptions shape behaviors, suggesting that seeing humans as fundamentally kind can foster more generous actions.
Moral Ambition and Its Implementation
Bregman's latest book, 'Moral Ambition', serves as an inspirational blueprint for fostering a generation of altruistic individuals. He emphasizes the necessity of nurturing moral ambitions that surpass personal gains, aiming instead to benefit society. The foundation of this movement highlights the creation of the School for Moral Ambition, which offers fellowships aimed at guiding talented individuals towards impactful societal contributions. This approach seeks to redirect talent away from self-serving corporate roles towards meaningful challenges facing society.
The Role of Environment in Shaping Morality
The conversation explores the interplay between individual behaviors and environmental contexts in determining moral character. Bregman suggests that instead of seeing human nature as a fixed trait, it is shaped by social influences and situational factors. By modifying our environment, society can promote positive behaviors, as factors like community and physical surroundings significantly impact individual actions. This perspective highlights the importance of crafting societies that incentivize altruism and cooperation rather than competition and negativity.
Challenges of Utopian Concepts
The discussion touches upon Bregman's earlier work, 'Utopia for Realists', which proposed radical ideas such as universal basic income and reduced workweeks. While some progress has been made since its publication, the political climate has made substantial advancements difficult. Bregman reflects on the social acceptance of basic income in reimagining welfare and addressing poverty, suggesting the need for systemic changes to accommodate new economic realities. Current debates around basic income reveal the tension between traditional welfare frameworks and innovative social policies.
Cultivating a Community of Change
The School for Moral Ambition aims to build a community that encourages individuals to channel their talents towards solving pressing global issues. By organizing fellowships and workshops, the initiative fosters collaboration among participants, driving impactful projects targeting neglected areas like tobacco control and sustainable food innovation. Bregman mentions the importance of creating an inclusive environment where ambitious individuals can thrive and find purpose beyond conventional career paths. This approach embodies the ethos of the Gandalf-Frodo model, encouraging leaders to guide aspiring do-gooders towards meaningful missions.
Historian and bestselling author Rutger Bregman joins us to discuss his dramatic shift from believing humans are fundamentally selfish to championing a radically optimistic view of human nature. We chart his evolution across three books: "Humankind," which establishes his optimistic perspective; "Utopia for Realists," advocating bold policies based on our potential for good; and his latest, "Moral Ambition," which calls on people to stop wasting their careers and start transforming the world for the better.
We strongly recommend you read Rutger's new book, Moral Ambition. It's a certified banger.
About the hosts:
Thom and Aidan left boring, stable careers in law and tech to found FarmKind, a donation platform that helps people be a part of the solution to factory farming — regardless of their diet. While the podcast isn’t about animal welfare, it’s inspired by their daily experience grappling with a fundamental question: Why do people so rarely change their minds, even when confronted with compelling evidence? This curiosity drives their exploration of intellectual humility and the complex factors that enable (or prevent) meaningful belief change.
Thoughts? Feedback? Guest recommendations? Email us at hello@changedmymindpod.com
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