Gaia: What is some more sustainable, desirable future that includes a respect of what is sacred and planetary boundaries? And then how do we get from here to there in this business as usual standard run where we have a decline back to or under carrying capacity on the horizon? Those are two separate questions in my mind. We absolutely need to change our mindset. We need to change the goal of the economy. The only way to do that really as with the speed at which this it is required is to really fundamentally go to our mindset and say, what is our role in this world?"

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