Is It Just Two Competing Camps, Good Versus Evil?

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Is it just a matter of getting the right people in place now to take us back to that? Or is there something that we have to be able to do to hold those others accountable? I don't know if you have an answer for that. But our question also highlights the fact that it's not just the leaders who need to do something. All of us can do something. And to the extent that we become, if we move toward a more just set of behaviors and reduce our own complicity, we're more likely to get the leaders that we actually want.

We find it easy to condemn wrongdoers, after they’ve been called out. But why do we often let unethical behavior occur around us, and not speak out? If we take a step back from the idea of there being one “bad apple”, we realize that with any wrongdoing, there is a collection of people who have been complicit in the behavior. Why is there so much fear about speaking up?

“We've created too much fear in speaking up, when in fact, there's so much value in avoiding harm in that process.“ ~ Max Bazerman

Our fascinating conversation with Max Bazerman aligns with the publication of his excellent new book, “Complicit: How We Enable the Unethical and How to Stop”. Our discussion is rich with insight, in particular we delve into the reason that we hold people, including ourselves, more responsible for errors of commission than omission. So how can we avoid errors of omission?

Max Bazerman is a world famous behavioral scientist. He is the Jesse Isidor Straus Professor of Business Administration at the Harvard Business School and the Co-Director of the Center for Public Leadership at the Harvard Kennedy School. He is the author, co-author, or co-editor of twenty books and over 200 research articles and chapters. His awards include an honorary doctorate from the University of London and both the Distinguished Educator Award and the Distinguished Scholar Award from the Academy of Management.

Over the years, Max has brought focus to the areas of decision making and ethics. Having been on the show before, we were delighted to welcome Max back to Behavioral Grooves once again. We hope you enjoy this episode of Behavioral Grooves. If you do, please write a review or share with a friend on Apple Podcasts. Thanks, listeners!

Topics

(3:16) What does it mean to be complicit?

(13:02) How errors of omission play an under-rated role in complicit behavior.

(18:21) How to move away from the idea that there is one bad apple?

(21:48) Unethical behavior goes unnoticed when it happens gradually.

(23:14) Do we legitimize unethical behavior in our leaders?

(25:51) Do employees need to be made to care about unethical behavior or do they need to demand ethical behavior from employees?

(27:26) When complicitors are engaged in illegal behavior.

(29:29) How can we hold people accountable for their bad behavior?

(37:33) Max’s personal story of being complicit.

(39:31) Are there new norms on data collection that can eliminate fraud?

(42:23) Dolly Chugh’s question for Max.

(46:11) How can we all become better people?

(49:05) What music does Max enjoy?

Links

Max Bazerman’s book: “Complicit: How We Enable the Unethical and How to Stop”: https://amzn.to/3UKjfNJ

Episode 196, Living Happier By Making the World Better with Max Bazerman: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/living-happier-by-making-the-world-better-with-max-bazerman/

Episode 325, Dolly Chugh: Can You Unlearn History And Still Love Your Country? With Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/dolly-chugh/

Bobo Doll Experiments: https://www.simplypsychology.org/bobo-doll.html

Episode 247, Stanford Prison Experiment, 50 Years On: What Have We Really Learnt? With Dr Philip Zimbardo: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/stanford-prison-experiment/

Heroic Imagination Society: https://www.heroicimagination.org/

Musical Links

Bob Dylan “Blowin’ in the wind”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMFj8uDubsE