In an exclusive interview with The Times, outgoing-NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg appears to suggest he believe there is no level of support the alliance could give Ukraine that would goad Vladimir Putin to attack one of NATO's members. He hints that he supports the firing of Western long-range missiles into Russia by Ukraine, a plan apparently being held up by Joe Biden amid suggestions by Putin that it would be an act of war by NATO. Stoltenberg also insists it will be solely up to Ukraine to decide when to come to the negotiating table with Russia. So what is the meaning behind the messages? The Times' Defence Editor, Larisa Brown, joins the World in 10 to analyse Stoltenberg's thoughts.

This is episode one of two that will analyse this exclusive interview with Jens Stoltenberg. Episode two, on the immediate future of NATO and the risks it faces, will be published tomorrow.

The World in 10 is the Times' daily podcast dedicated to global security. Expert analysis of war, diplomatic relations and cyber security from The Times' foreign correspondents and military specialists. 

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