Today I am with the author, lawyer, and advocate, and the former chief of the Gender Equality and Diversity Branch at the International Labor Organization, Shanna Only. Shanna, thank you for being here with me

today. Thank you, John. It's a pleasure.

Shanna, you've been through your Clifton Strings journey. You know your top five. What of your top five is it one strength? Is it a collection of strengths that you've used to help you be as successful as you are today?

I think they're also interlinked that for me it was really hard when I was preparing for this to think of what is one, what is the one that has really seen me through my career, through my life. I would say that if my top three I've got a cheaper input and learner and those for me are foundational. They're very much what I need to have to get things done. I need to work hard. I need to get a lot of input. I need to continue to learn. But for me the real power and the strengths has been the relationship building. You'll see in my top 10 as you know, five of my 10 are relationship building. So if I look at connectedness, I look at positivity, I look at related developer, all those for me are very interconnected and have been really important in my life.

Shanna, when you first took strengths at the ILO, how did understanding your top 10 help you focus in your career, help you accelerate your career? What was that process like?

For me it really resonated the, you know, when I read the report when I read the book, the strength finders too at that time, it made a lot of sense to me. So sometimes we don't see what's immediately in front of us. And I think CliftonStrengths helped me to look at things in a more nuanced way. I'd worked with other strengths profiles. But this was more nuanced, this was less binary. So you see that everything is really on a continuum. It really helps to name things, you know, positivity. Okay, that's, yeah. I don't think that's something that came out in the other strengths models that I used. But clearly it's a big part of me. Again, maybe because it's considered one of those soft, soft skills that has been underestimated for so long. But it's not, it's not underestimated in the CliftonStrengths.

So when you think about your relating themes and how dominant they are in your top 10, how do you use those, leverage those in order to make an impact as a lawyer? How to make an impact as an advocate and how to make an impact throughout your work at the ILO?

One of the things I learned pretty early on was the achiever in me is the hard worker. And that's number one. So I will work as many hours as it takes. I will, I have incredible stamina. So if something needs to drive into the early hours of the morning, I will do that. But it took me a while to figure out that that wasn't enough. If you were really going to motivate people, if you were really going to get good outcomes, co-create with people, you needed relationships. And I tend to be somebody who has fewer relationships but deeper relationships. And that's characterized my life. So it was learning, again, guess what that connectedness piece as well, that those deep relationships were incredibly important. But I also needed more of a breath. So to get to know more people but know them as people, because I tended to keep a distance professionally as well. So there was my personal life, there was my professional life. And I think to some extent you do have to keep some healthy distance. But it doesn't stop you from getting to know your colleagues as people, to understanding that they do yoga too. They might have an interest in meditation just like I do. They might love the theater. But those connections and relating to people on a personal level I think are so important. You build those and that also helps you build a team, cohesiveness in a team, understanding in a team. And for me that was really important, particularly as I moved up in the organization, those relationships made things happen.

You know, Shauna, one of the hallmarks of your leadership is your ability to listen. In the world that we live in today, humanity is desperate to be heard. We see 8 billion of the world's citizens that are trying to communicate through billions of tweets, texts, teams, messages, any way they can to be heard. But you find a way to listen. You do it with people individually. You do it throughout organizations. And through our project you figured out how to listen at scale by interviewing women in the workplaces all over the world to understand what would create a better future for them. What inspires that listening that you do? What strength?

People are so interesting. They have so much to offer. And I think listening to people we learn so much. So you know, the related, the developer, the positivity, the connectedness, I think all that brings in the need to listen. You know, we are all so different. Our perspectives are also unique. There's always something, you know, even when somebody comes at you with what seems like anger or frustration, if you really listen, there's a gem in there somewhere and it's finding that because that's how you can also relate to somebody. You find what they're really concerned about, what

they're really interested in. Sean, for those of us that have for later in our top five, what do you think that the pinnacle of relater looks like?

I think it's about achieving a shared goal. So building those relationships so you can achieve something extraordinary. Now that's going to look different for different people and different situations. For me at the ILO, it was working together with colleagues so that we could change the world. So we could make a difference, a real positive difference in the world and then be able to acknowledge that, to celebrate that and to have those huge ripple effects that come from that. And if I give an example, I mean, for me, really the pinnacle of that was the adoption of the new treaty on violence and harassment in the world of work. So this is, you know, new international law. We were creating international law. And we did that through, you know, it was a five year process. We did that through a lot of hard work, a lot of ideas. We did that through a lot of input. But importantly, we did that through a lot of relationships. So we had to convince the governing body that it was an important issue. So we had to work together across the office, you know, within the team, field headquarters to really make those arguments. We had to build relationships with our constituents, with other people in different departments. You know, and I like any big organization. They're a turf force, you know, turf issues. And so we had to convince people that this was the greater good, that if we all work together, we could achieve something extraordinary that we could all own, that we could all feel proud about. And we did.

For those of us that have for later, you and I both have it, top five. What advice would you give to those that who are just starting on their journey have later in their top five?

What I learned the most in my related journey was that you had to go deep, but also broad. I think the depth of relationships and the breadth of relationships is so important. Not to get siloed. And that's a real risk. So you trust some people. You have confidence in some people. So you tend to go to them a lot. You tend to give them perhaps more of the interesting assignments. And that's something you really, really have to watch for, to make sure that you're equitable, that you're looking at other people's strengths as well. And they again, you're getting to know them as people because everybody is so interesting. Everybody has a story. Get to know that story. And if it's beyond your very close circle of trusted friends and colleagues.

Shana, all great leaders have had really difficult challenges or obstacles that they've had to overcome. What's an example of one that you've had and how did you use your strengths to overcome that obstacle?

I think the toughest moment in my career was in the International Labor Organization. So I'd started with the New Branch, the Gender Quality and Diversity Branch. And really worked hard for two years to try to create a team, get that cohesiveness, that shared vision, that co-creation. And two years in, they actually merged us with another branch, so a whole new branch. And now we were from four units plus from a whole new branch coming together. Now it came at a very difficult time for that branch because a lot of its external funding had just been pulled. So it meant there were implications for staff, particularly in the field. There were implications for activities. I'd never had to deal with something like that. I actually had to tell people that they might not have a job in two months. And at first it was soul destroying, just having that huge responsibility for these people's lives. But again, I drew all my strengths. And the related was very important again, to be able to reach out to different people I knew and the connectedness to those I didn't know, but to make those connections, to find out, okay, what can we do financially? How can we help all these people? So there were possibilities of finding different jobs, of different things they could be doing. So I reached out, first I reached out to every single one of the staff members, and I talked to them about the situation, what it might mean, and just their feelings, what were their aspirations, what would they like to see moving forward? So to really get a sense of them, then I reached out to all their bosses in the field to find out, okay, can we get, can you give us some more money? What can we do? Are there other positions? I worked with finance. I worked with the staff union. I worked with a whole range of people in the office to find solutions. HRD was fantastic. Here the developer came out wanting to find out, well, what can we do for those people that maybe we can't keep? What can we do to ensure they get some career advice, they get some better tools? How can we support their growth? And the Human Resources Development Department was fantastic about that. So we designed a whole program, a whole system. And in the end, we actually found positions for almost everybody. And for a couple of them, they were able to take early retirement, which they were happy with. So again, that process of listening, of actually hearing what they needed, helped define solutions. And I grew as a manager. It was the hardest thing I ever did. And in some ways, one of the most rewarding.

OK, can we talk about your developer? Developers have an unusual ability to grow people throughout the organizations, people close to them. How do you use it in your leadership?

I think this is where I focus a lot on strengths. And this is where coaching has been so important for me to learn what other people's strengths are, to be able to use those, and to understand my own strengths and how they interact, or potentially can clash with other people's strengths. So for example, in my team in the Gender Equality and Diversity branch, I had a lot of intellectual interaction, a lot of discipline. I had consistency. I had people who had quite different strengths to me. So in fact, in the whole team, my strengths were very different. I was much stronger in the relationship building than anybody else. So if you've got that intellectual interaction, you've got to help to build them, help to bring them out and develop them in a different way. So just trying to build relationships as important as that is, for them, isn't going to resonate immediately. So you've got to find that space where they can think. You've got to work with them on the research projects, but then help them to build those relationships beyond that. That will help the research, that will help the data. So I think that's been really important to me in terms of building a team. Again, when you've got a very fragmented team as I came into, you have to find the best in people, to bring them together, to bring that cohesion. And you can only do that if you look at their potential and help them to build that potential through their strengths.

Shawna, people that burn with developer, they often have mentees. Do you have mentees? And if so, who are they and who are you mentoring right now?

So for me, mentoring is one of the most important things you can do because it made such a difference to me. I had mentees at the ILO as well. They had a program. And so I signed up for it immediately to be a mentor. And now that I'm back in my hometown, I'm mentoring law students. I'm mentoring some people from a women's future leaders program. And informally, people who just come to me. I have a lot of people who, in fact, I got an email this morning from a family friend saying, I really need to ask you a question, you know, can you meet with this young woman? She's just finishing international relations. She's got these ideas about her future. Can you have a chat with her? Can you give her some advice? And I love doing that. Absolutely love doing that. To see their potential, to see the possibilities. And I always give them the 24-hour rule. You get 24 hours to deal with a setback, to feel bad about it. And then you find the opportunity in that. You find what you can do to overcome that. That's going to make things even better.

Shana, what would you say great mentoring looks like?

I mean, for me, the mentors I've had are great listeners. I think that's absolutely key. And again, finding what is that jewel in the middle of everything you're hearing? What is it that drives them? What is it that excites them? What are they passionate about? And how can that be transformed into the next stage in their career or their life journey? How can that be harnessed and working with them to find that path? So it's not about giving advice. A great mentor doesn't just tell you, well, you should do this and you should do this. And by the way, do this. It's about finding what they want to do. Now you give them signposts along the way. So you give them some ideas. Wow, that's interesting. That makes me think a little bit about this or that. And how does that resonate with you? But you're not trying to put them in a box. Say, this is the right box for you. There are so many paths in the world. People have to find their own and they have to own that

path. As a developer, one of the aspects of helping an individual or a team grow is through coaching. What do you think great coaching looks like?

Well, I was very, very fortunate. In the ILO, they put a lot of emphasis on coaching, particularly for new managers. But as a new manager and then as a not so new manager, I was able to have one on one coaching for the entire time. Now helping with transformation was absolutely essential. And I think like mentoring, all the coaching is different. It's being heard. So the coach listens, really tries to understand what you need and tries to understand your strengths. And I think the whole strengths piece in that is very important. And to help you to go through the processes with your team and with yourself, your own growth that you really, you really want. So again, trying to listen, trying to learn and then support. The strengths piece was so important in all the coaching that I had in terms of understanding my own strengths, but also how those strengths interacted with others in the team. And for me, that was absolutely essential.

You know, you basically used this word, but it's what you did, which was show compassion. And we find in our strengths based leadership research that compassion is one of the four needs of followers. Considering how you're able to use your related, your developer, as you mentioned, your connectedness in order to demonstrate compassion, what advice would you have for others emerging leaders who too want to be better at showing compassion?

I think showing compassion, particularly in difficult moments, is absolutely key. It needs to be authentic. So it can't come out as fake. And that's where, you know, positivity, you have to be a bit careful that you're actually hearing people. You're hearing what is difficult for them, what they are suffering with, what they're anxious about. You show compassion, you can also give hope, but it has to be real hope. And again, I guess that's one of the four needs. And I think they go together as well. They're really important. And I think you need to show people that you hear them, that you understand them. You're not minimizing the difficulties, but you are trying to show them a path

forward. Sometimes we joke that people wear their strengths on their sleeve. And if I look at your background right now, I think I actually see a visual of 5,000 books and you lead with learner and input. Can you talk more about how you've leveraged those two strengths throughout your career?

Well, I think I was telling you earlier, I've read most of those books and there are probably 10, maybe more boxes of books in the garage that when we move from France, we actually couldn't fit on bookshelves here. So yeah, input is really important to me. I think for me, I need to get as much information as possible for anything, whether it's preparing for a meeting, whether it's preparing for an event. I need to know as much as I can and analyze as much as I can. When I'm writing, for example, I'll do days, weeks, however long it takes to do the research. I won't write a word. I need that input. And once I've had that input that I feel confident about, then I will write and it will come very quickly because all the input is there. So for me, the reading, the disgusting ideas, the gathering new ideas has been really important and to share that input with other people. So that in the ILO in particular, we would often sit and share ideas. What have you read? What have you, what are you thinking? And from that, you also get really innovative ideas from other people. So just making that, sharing of ideas so important. The learner always want to learn. I've always said, I would never stay in a job if I ever stopped learning. So you have to learn something new every day. Actually, I've never had a job where I've stopped learning. So that was, you know, I think you can always learn in a job. You learn from others. Now, as you know, I left the ILO at the end of 2020. Came back to my hometown. And I'm learning so much here. I'm learning from the university students that I'm working with now. I'm supposed to be giving them information and teaching them, but I learn so much from them as well. I'm mentoring law students. I'm mentoring future leaders. And I learned, I think, as much from them as well, and maybe more than they learned from me. So it's what stimulates me. It's what keeps me active and interested.