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Shannon is a civil rights attorney, most notably as the lead counsel for same-sex couples in the landmark marriage case in California. He’s currently the legal director at the National Center for LGBTQ Rights, where he is leading several federal court challenges to the trans military ban and other new federal policies targeting transgender people.

I’ve long tried to find an interlocutor on the new radical direction of trans activism and its hostile takeover of the gay rights movement. Shannon was the first to agree, and we got along great. In some areas, we strongly agree; in others, we strongly disagree; but we can talk and not hate each other. If we want to restore liberal democracy, this is the way.

For two clips of our convo — on the new “conversion therapy,” and how trans activists need to adopt persuasion as a tactic — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: his “awesome” childhood in rural East Texas; hunting and fishing all the time; his Methodist church; his terrible adolescence with gender dysphoria; the evangelical teacher who mentored him; his unlikely path to practicing law; helping teens after conversion therapy; coming out as lesbian; becoming a trans man in his 30s; the “It Gets Better” project; gay Mormons; the ghetto approach of queer activism; the AIDS crisis; Virtually Normal; Bush and the Federal Marriage Amendment; Evan Wolfson; the California marriage case and Prop 8; Edie Windsor; when trans weddings were legal and gay ones weren’t; “nonbinary” and “genderfluid”; affirmation-only vs. watchful waiting; the suicide canard; Chase Strangio; autism; detransitioners; Tavistock; the Cass Review; puberty blockers; the Dutch Protocol; Johanna Olson-Kennedy and her closed clinic; Marci Bowers and lost orgasm; Rachel Levine’s politicization; fairness in sports; Sarah McBride; Shannon losing and regaining his religion; and moving back to his tiny hometown in Texas with his wife.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy (the first 102 are free in their entirety — subscribe to get everything else). Coming up: Scott Anderson on the Iranian Revolution, Jill Lepore on the history of the Constitution, Katie Herzog on drinking your way sober, and Johann Hari interviewing me. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.

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