How are you filtering all the

information that's coming your way and all the help? So I try to say as plugged in as possible into other people who are kind of in this ecosystem, for example, I know that you guys did it, made a similar transition. I know that there's folks out there like Mariah, cause, Stu McLaren, who talk about memberships. So I'm sure that like, okay, those people have probably figured it out. So I should probably follow them, watch their courses. I know Jay has a course about creating a, I think it's called beloved membership. So there's like other people, other people in my network that like, I think probably would have some pretty good advice around this. And so the way in which I've approached from starting the business to now, it's this idea of just like, I just kind of could help everyone that I possibly can. If anyone needs help on sponsorships, I'm just like help them. And like maybe one day I'll be able to like ask them for help or ask them for a favor or something like that. I'm not looking for a quid pro quote type thing, but like maybe one day there will be an opportunity for me to get some advice on something that that's really tricky. I feel as though I've built up a lot of people in my corner, I guess, where I can come to you, for example, and be like, Pat, like what do I do here, dude? You know, like that, I felt comfortable enough to like ask you for advice about the book. And like, I wouldn't have when we first did the podcast episode together. I didn't feel like we knew each other as good at that time. But but over the last several years, we've built up a relationship. You've come to me for advice about sponsorships. I've helped you out. Yeah. So it's like, it's this kind of thing where it's not a transactional friendship or relationship is just like people helping each other out. And I think, I don't know, I guess that's the way I've always approached it, where it's like, you know, if I if I need the support, I'll ask people or I'll purchase a chorus or I'll, you know, pay someone for their time. Just like the conference I was mentioning, I put out a tweet. I was like, who can I hire for like a consulting session to tell me how to like not lose money on a conference? Or like a mastermind or something, right? So it's just like, I don't know what I'm doing. So I might as well, you know, ask people who do.

Yeah, that's great. And that's the way to fast forward to the right answers for sure. And this is exactly like everything you said is exactly how I learn as well, which, which I love. And it really starts with relationships and digging your well before you're thirsty. Jordan Harbinger came on at one point and said, you know, if you're ever needing something in the future, you best hopefully have already offered that person something prior to that. And it's something that I see you do and you're doing a great job. So, you know, in terms of specifically your situation where you're at now, I think micro experiments are always a great way to go about it. That's how we try to figure out what the answers are before, you know, making a permanent decision. Can we test something out when we were running our accelerators? You know, let's try one cohort and just see what happens. We're not going to commit to it forever, but this is a hypothesis that people are going to have a better experience and be able to go through this, learn better and get better results and transform if they go alongside other people. And if it doesn't work out, great. We never committed to anything, but we're experimenting just in case and you're doing that here as well. And I think the biggest thing is with all the different options out there and the things that you're trying, pay close attention to where within that you are getting fired up, like super stoked about stuff and where within that you're starting to go. Fine. I'll do it. Right. When you start to early on decipher between those two kind of buckets in your energy, it starts to become very clear which direction you will likely succeed most. It's not always a one-on-one correlation, but it often is because you're feeling that energy and so will your audience on the other side. So whether it's these more public forums or more private things, I love the idea of a private space. Like if I'm a brand and I'm like, I just need help and I want sponsorships, but I don't want to share sensitive information. I mean, that program that you have, what is that called? The Wizard's Guild. Wizard's Guild. Yeah. I mean, semi-to-hog warrants, that's where I want to go because that's where I can get direct access to the team for X amount of time and the ROI is so obvious at this point, right? I can just pay this amount of money. And I know that even just one deal that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise would have helped make it worth it for sure. And then one thing that I would suggest for you, Justin, that I haven't quite seen yet and I hope that you're okay with me offering this advice is I want to hear more stories, like real stories on the outside as on Twitter, on Instagram of specific people who have done it themselves, right? Because I know you're the expert, but when I see somebody who wasn't who then does it and then they go, yeah, it was Justin's program or it was Justin who said this, like that is super inspirational. The reason why I'm thinking about this is because you mentioned Stu McLaren. When he was on the show, he was dropping names and examples. And when I was like, hey, so how does somebody transition from an online course to a membership? And he's like, oh, that's like Donna. So let me tell you about Donna, her community is this and it's this and she did this and they should, this is this much money. And I was like, you can't help but go, okay, I need to listen to you because you've got it down. Right. So I know you do some of that, but like the more storytelling that you can do to relate it to the different obstacles and objections that your audience that you know they have, the better that will convert. So maybe I can go maybe get a initial reaction from you or not before

I ask my next question. Dude, I accept that with open arms, man, because it's so, you're so right. It's so funny because like I have, I literally was just talking with my team. We have literally hundreds of testimonials, video testimonials, like really amazing ones. And I literally don't share them anywhere. Like the only place that they're on is basically the sales page for the course. I don't share them on social media. I don't do that at all. I have this like, I don't know. It's on the version to it. It's just like, I just, you know, my, my, my whole ethos is just like, I have people want to work with me or join the course. It's fine. They'll find it, you know? So I, I'm never like overt about it, but we have so many. And so I was, we should like start posting these, like we should turn them into shorts. We should, in fact, I hired a journalist recently to interview some of our top, you know, clients. And we started making these like really in depth case studies into them. I got inspired by ConvertKit because they do these really cool, you know, stories. And so I was like, I want to do that. And so we have four of them so far. But yeah, I haven't really promoted them and they're really awesome. And so you're right. I need to do better of that. I need to improve my story bank like you mentioned with, with Stu. I do have a lot of stories, but it's like, yeah, I don't know. It's a deficiency. You're right. I need to do better at that. I don't have an excuse. I need to do better there. In the world of negotiation, there are so many interesting moments that can be pulled out. I'm, I'm remembering a lot of, I don't

follow this person, but I just happen to come across this content every once in a while. And I'm intrigued. Grant Cardone. He's literally on the phone in his conference room and he's negotiating some big deals with the person on the other end and like just listening in on those conversations is super fascinating. It's just like, I can't move to the next thing because I need to see how this thing finishes. So there might be some amazing email correspondences. You know, when you can leave names out and brands out, but just to show how the deal went down, how this person's one single question. Double their sponsorship revenue. Here's the conversation. Can you find the question that mattered most here? And it's just like, oh, gosh, this is learning as it's happening in real time. We are like viewers watching the real world, right? It's just like, wow, let's see how this goes down. That's an amazing opportunity that you have in the space that you're in because negotiations happen all the time. So if we surface those, then they just become, you know, eye candy for viewers. So man,

my mind is racing right now because I just, the thing you said a little bit ago around, it also made me think of you were like, oh, there's going to be certain things you try or do that fires you up and certain things that feel like a draw on your energy. Right. And the way it plays my mind instantly went when you said that was like, dude, if we had like a more of a membership, focus community, I would love to do more ongoing programming. Because like when I did a live cohort of my course, one of my favorite things is bringing in guest speakers from agencies and brands and creators who are doing cool things and like, I, and people always say that's like one of their highlights, but I don't do that as much now because I have the on demand program. And so like if we had more of a membership feel to the community, it would make way more sense to like have ongoing programming. Right? Man, I just thought of that. Like that, that excites me.

Yeah, I'm getting fired up. And this is the cool thing. When you bring two people in a room and you chat about one of those persons things, that could be way out of context. Don't take that out of context

by. Don't

clip that people. When you just are with somebody else, talk and shop, incredible things happen. Right. And this is, like you said, it is a lonely thing out there. So there's a, there's a lot to this. Right. If you're trying to learn something or expand your knowledge, go out there, talk to people, join communities, have conversations, ask for help. But at the same time as a creator, you can become the person who creates those safe spaces for those interactions to happen similar to what you're doing with your people who are all talking shop who are going to swap ideas. And it's cool because it's, it's like you said earlier, it's like you can learn the basics and the fundamentals. It's like chess. You know how the pieces move, but every game is different because there's a million different combinations. If not more of things that can happen, which is why you need a coach for chess, which is why you need. Justin for sponsorships, which is why you might need. Insert name here for transformation that you want. So I'm just really grateful again that you're open and that you are sharing these things in real time because people are seeing your growth and it's like, we're kind of watching like, okay, where are you going to go next? And it's, it's really cool to hear sort of the play by play. Dude, I appreciate that. How the heck

do I find a quality mastermind? I was part of one a few years back for course creators. And it was great. I attribute a lot of my growth to that to the things that I learned in that. Where did you find that one? Just Twitter. It was run by Andrew Berry and Marie Poulan and Robbie Crabtree. It was really great. I really got a lot out of it, but then I felt like I graduated out of it. It was like it was, I got the outcome that I was hoping. And so I was at kind of a different level, right? I was like ready to like for the next level, essentially, right? And this is the, the dirty thing that I think people don't talk about enough with like masterminds and groups and things like that is like, to some degree, it's like, you kind of want to know who's in the world. And the room too, right? Because what I found was like, there was this imperceptible moment where I shifted from learning to now I'm like teaching in the mastermind, right? And it was like, I don't mind that, right? Like I'm happy to do that. But it was like way more skewed on the teaching side. And I was like, I'm not like getting out of this. Like, I want to like be the dumbest person again, like, you know, in the room. And so it's been really tough for me to like, I just don't know. It's like I've asked around. It's like, is a peer mastermind good? Is a paid one good? Like, do you have any tips on like, how do I find like a, a peer group of people who will like challenge me in this way? And like more of a like an ongoing format where it's like, you meet up or there's like events and like, I don't know, I've explored some of these various options. But nothing has seemed like a good fit. Yeah. I mean, there's two kinds of groups that you want to think about. And one, groups

related to the next thing that you're working on, which is going to be different than the sort of like long term group of people who's going to grow with you and you're going to grow with them. This is sort of like topic specific. So for example, since you're in book mode, it could make sense to find other people and or join and perhaps even pay to get access to people who are literally in the same moment as you in time right now with books and such, you know, people like Jeff Goings and other people who bring people or seem to attract authors together in the business space who are collectively helping each other out at same time. And then, you know, you launch a book and you're kind of done with that. And that's fine. But that's good because you got what you need. It's just in time learning, but learning with other people. However, definitely there's benefit to finding a group of people who are there and growing with you. And that is largely going to be based off of the relationships that you build based on the values that you share with each other and just like the vibe, honestly. And the only real way to make that happen is to find people in person and just get together and try like let's date around a little bit. You know, I've been in five or six mastermind groups over time and I've landed on two that I've been in now for over a decade. And then they weren't the first ones I found, but they were ones that I found that I gelled with. And, you know, a few members here and there have changed in and out, but I continue to get value from them because we are very much in the camp of we are here to help each and every other member live the best life possible. And to be in that partly means being brutally honest with each other too, because you don't want to be in a group where you're just getting like, yeah, you got this, you know, fire emojis everywhere. It's like, bro, what the heck was that? Last week's email was terrible. Are you okay? Like, what are you doing? Like, are you like you're veering off path here? Like we got to get you back on. So the two groups I'm in one I was invited to. So I was in a circle and I was eventually invited into this. I didn't know it existed until somebody was like, Hey, you know, why don't you try this out? And then I loved it. The other one that I am in now, I started with a buddy. So it was just literally from scratch. So you don't have to find one that exists. You can go and make one. And it just has to be maybe even one other person to start with. And then you can kind of slowly build it. And that will take time. Unfortunately, it's not going to be a let me sign up and join the club kind of thing pretty often. It's it's going to be organic. It's going to take time. It's going to be really based on the vibe and the just the gut feeling really. Dang, that's yeah.

I figured that the hard way is the is the real way. And so I kind of knew what that was the answer. I was wishing there was there was an easier path. But I think that's I guess that's the way the the worthwhile things are in life, right? Yeah, for sure. And

you know, the other thing I'll say about that is, you know, the groups I'm in, they comprised of people who are across all different industries. In fact, one of the groups I was in had a member who's no longer in the group, but he was with us for years. His name was Roderick and he was a

sword swallower.

That was his profession. He swallowed my God swords and he did the hypnotism. He would get high school kids on stage during their graduation parties and make them look silly in front of everybody and he would perform. And you're like, OK, well, what benefit was that to you, Pat? Like, what was the benefit? And I would not be where I met with the kind of stuff I do on stage, if it wasn't for him. How comfortable I am on stage, the performance aspect of it, how to draw a crowd, how to hold attention. And if you can hold the attention of some high schoolers, then, you know, you could hold the attention of anybody, really. So I learned so much stagecraft from this person. As we were helping him with his business and expanding outward beyond just like, you know, getting hired during one season of the year. So, you know, cross industry, we were both better off.

That's so useful because I think I tend to sometimes be kind of myopic about, I just like want to find a group or other peers who are like kind of doing the same thing I'm doing. Because they, you know, if I talk about like funnels or email sequences or automations or blah, blah, blah, you know, personalization, whatever. Like, I want to like talk that, but it's like, to your point, there's so much you can learn so much color that you can glean from people who are doing wildly different things to you. And I don't think I appreciate that as often. 100%.

100%. I appreciate you coming on and treating this almost in a mini coaching session versus just coming out there.

It was therapy, dude. Therapy. Are you certified?

I hope so.

No, I'm not. But it seemed like it. It was very good.

Thank you.

What else is

exciting you these days outside of business? I'm curious. A well rounded entrepreneur does not mean things are growing momentum in just business, but also in other parts of life. What is getting you excited outside of business today?

Dude, my kids are getting older and I can do awesome things with them now. My kids are six and nine and we went off-roading with them. I'm on our last vacation. Like what kind of. Yeah, dude, like literally we went in a TV or like not an ATV, like an enclosed buggy, you know, like off-road thing for cedar. And when we were in Kauai, man, we took the kids off-road and it was freaking amazing. I like for the longest time we were in this period of our lives where like basically for the last 10 years where it was like they were like young and like, you know, any time we want to do like an activity or an excursion and it was always like not for kids younger than X or like not for kids who way less than blah, blah, blah, right? And so now that our youngest is six, it's like that's the cutoff for like a lot of cool things you can do, like zip lining and, you know, off-roading and like cool activities when you travel. We love to travel as a family. So my wife and I were just talking about how it's like a new chapter, you know, of like kind of doing an experience, new experiencing new things as a family. By the other token though, it also means that older kids mean new and complex challenges with their lives and the people that they're becoming and new challenges. At school and in their social life and them having distinct personalities and identities outside of being our kids, you know, it's like, yeah, it's such a beautiful life, man. I feel I feel really, let me share one really vulnerable thing that I think might be useful to other people. The other thing that I'm really excited about is being able to allow my wife to slow down in her career a bit more because for a long time, my wife, April, she, the only way I know anything about sponsorships and brand. And I think the way I'm doing this is because of the business that really, really, she started and built her YouTube channel, her social platforms. And I, you know, started making content along the way, but it was really her. And so she, for the longest time, has been kind of the figurehead of like that business, of like people want to work with April, right? And then I kind of come along for the ride. And so it's been a lot of pressure on her for a long time because of that. The deals that we would do, the business, it's been a blessed life. I'm not complaining, of course, but it's a lot of stress being a mom, being kind of the figurehead of that business. And so having grown creator wizard to where it is now, it's just been such a breath of fresh air to be able to allow her, you know, to have this new kind of really robust revenue stream to say, hey, you know, it's okay to like take your foot off the gas of this thing you've been doing for the last 15 years. I don't know why I'm sharing this, but it like just jumped to my mind of like something that has been such a blessing over the last year or so.

No, that is huge. My wife is named April as well, you know, stay at home mom and she's sacrificed so much and I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for her. And we have to realize that, you know, and I really am grateful for the pandemic. In fact, as terrible as it was, and as challenging as it was, it definitely helped slow me down because she was always in full support of whatever I decided to do. And for the longest time, I was saying yes to way too many things. And she was in full support of all of it. And I'm so grateful for that because when the pandemic hit, we had some pretty intense discussions about the future. You know, am I going to continue to go back on the speaking circuit like I was and it really made me reflect on, you know, not just the fact that I didn't have to speak anymore, which was cool, but just what is important. What are we ultimately doing this for? And that it made more sense to stick around at home and be more present, especially as you'd mentioned your kids. My kids are even older, 14 and 11 now. And we're on the opposite half of how much time we have until they're out now. I mean, only four more summers with my son. So it really brought things back into perspective. And oftentimes it's, you know, our other half, our other relationships that really help fulfill the other parts of our life. And we get really excited about business and we start to, you know, lean into that, but we don't want it to be at the expense of anything else. So I appreciate you sharing that. And, you know, your wife sounds amazing and your family and just appreciate you coming on to share your stories. And I'm sure this isn't going to be the last time. But again, if anybody wanted to go back

and listen to some of the tact, tactful tact, tactfully,

you know, I don't even know how to say it. The great episodes that Justin brought on where we go into the walkthrough of how to do sponsorships. Obviously you can listen to that episode. But if they wanted to get more help from you and directly from you and your team, where should they go, Justin?