And there's probably going to be some pain in the process. I remember a relationship that I was in years ago, where at the time I was in relationship with a woman who was a very like strongly self defined feminist who in our relationship, she would say all kinds of shit that was like disparaging towards men and like dismiss my opinion because, oh, well, you're just a white man, you know, with your limited perspective, you don't really understand and would say this to guys too. And at that current phase or at that previous phase of my life, like, I actually did question a lot of that stuff. Like, because I didn't have good examples, I was like, wow, maybe, maybe I don't know, you know, like, maybe I don't have agency, maybe I, you know, it's just like, it really messed with my psychology for a while. And I stayed in a relationship and I stayed in an internal paradigm that wasn't healthy, that was sort of like bowing to and giving my power away, instead of learning how to relate in a healthy way. You know, years later, like after going through a traumatic breakup and then taking multiple years without talking and then eventually forming a good friendship again, like we have since talked about it and she's like, we both apologize to each other for our parts and that and I've owned, like, I definitely had equal, equal share of ownership and the just shittiness of that dynamic. But just one of the things she said to me was that, wow, I, I totally apologize for being like a baby feminist, like I've left the cult with feminism, she said. And she's still, you know, that's that could be taken in a lot of different ways. Like she's still very like pro women's rights and women's health and all of this stuff. But like, there's like that was just an interesting phase for both of us to be in. And I think like, I know I'm not the only guy that has fallen into that trap, you know, and it wasn't great for her either. And so I know that she wasn't the only woman that has fallen into that trap either. Like it hurt both of us in this sort of like imbalanced way.

Yeah,

I can, I can really relate to that. And in my previous relationship, that was a very similar dynamic, very strong, you know, woman, me being this people pleasing, needy kind of nice guy and not being super sure of myself and defaulting to her extremely strong views and losing myself in that relationship, losing my sense of autonomy and independence and being extremely out of integrity. And I realized, you know, I was actually just reflecting last night at how, you know, if I call it a toxic relationship, I need to acknowledge that I was toxic. I was extremely toxic. Even though I, you know, the conflict minded me once it always project and say, you know, that was because of them and her and this. And if I'm going to take radical responsibility, I have to acknowledge that that was me. You know, I was 100% responsible for the relationship environment that I created, because of the decisions that I made, the choices, the words that I said, my actions and everything. And that really created that really dysfunctional dynamic just as much as, yeah, I can't, I can't blame anyone else. It was, I have to take full responsibility for it. Yeah.

Yeah. And that brings up a really important point that I wanted to get into as well, which is like, I'm happy to hear you say that. And I, I didn't think otherwise, but, but there's this piece around the victim mindset and victim mentality that I see in a lot of men's spaces, at least online. You know, you see a lot in some of the red pill world and it's like this sort of like, Oh, we're the victims of the feminine or Oh, the etc, etc. Have you seen that? Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I know. And what do you think about that? Like, could you have seen a path where you maybe went down that path instead of the taking responsibility path?

Look, I did go down that path. I went in, I went pretty deep into the outer stage where I went pretty deep into the red pill. I was following Andrew Tate. I was close to joining the war room and these kind of organizations that he was in because I was so jaded and pissed off by the results that I was getting in the relationship with women and kind of getting dominated by them. And then when I found the red pill, I was like, Oh my God, this makes so much sense. I've just been letting women walk all over me and I have had no backbone and I need to take my power back. And this it's all the fault of feminism. And you know, I got swept up into that ideology. And thankfully it ran out of road pretty quickly because I saw the inherent limitations and realized that that was actually kind of toxic masculinity in a new form. And yeah, so I was able to go into that and then and clearly see how that was not where I wanted to put myself, because it's inherently, I mean, I have very strong views on the victim mindset myself because I just don't believe, I think that gives all of your power away, which puts you in a weak position whether you want to dress it up however you want with red pill bullshit, or you can actually just take humble responsibility for it to admit the faults that you had. And, you know, apologize if necessary and seek to create harmony again by deeply understanding your perspective and how you feel, the need that you had and the pain you're experiencing and that of the other, you know, in my past relationship, I need to empathize with her and understand exactly how I made her feel or she felt in that situation, the pain and the yearning, despite all the toxic stuff that happened, there was two hearts that was basically trying to love and failing at it, which I think is a much more grounded and mature approach that just leads to a lot more compassion, forgiveness, and understanding ultimately.

Yeah,

and probably a more thriving relationship and sex life.

Yeah,

definitely. If that's, if that's the end goal, which some people are like, oh, how can I have a better sex life? You know, and it's all one big spectrum of a picture. But yeah, man, thanks so much for sharing that. I didn't know that about you, but it makes a lot of sense. And I can relate to in the sense of when I got out of that relationship that I mentioned previously, I was just pissed at women in general. I was just, I just thought like, I cannot fucking trust women. They're all out to control guys. Like, it's just big, unhealthy bunch of bullshit out there. Like, I need to be on my own separated away from them. Sure, I'll have sex with them, but keep them at a distance. Like, all this kind of stuff and very self-protective, very victim mindset, very ultimately unhealthy. But I could see how it would be easy to get caught up in that and never actually move beyond, you know? And there was, there was also a moment that really struck me with that and how to articulate this. Like, I haven't had in the grand scheme of things like that many really intensely bad experiences in my life. Like, I feel very lucky about that. That one breakup was definitely traumatic for me. But then, when I think about all the experiences women have had on the other side with, with, you know, the statistics around sexual assault and, and harassment and all that stuff and how they relate to men and the work that they must have to do to come back from that to actually trust men again, it was just like this big wake up call to realize like, wow, I had this big traumatic breakup. And now for about a year, it was very hard for me to trust women. And I was angry at women for about a year just from a traumatic breakup, right? Like, whoa, the amount of work that women must be doing to be able to show up in right relationship with us. Like, it like really, I don't know, meant a lot. Like, it brought up a lot of emotion to me. Like, wow, it was, it helped me kind of see the other side or the gravity of that. Does that make sense? Did that kind of explain that? Absolutely. Yeah. And I think

it's a sentiment we see a lot is people getting, it's very easy to get upset with women for being too much in their masculine, for being very protected and guarded and having this like very strong shield up. And I hear men often complaining like, oh, the women are too masculine these days. And you know, it's hard to find a woman that's actually open. But it's completely understandable given how men have behaved. And it's not very easy for a woman to open up if she doesn't feel safe. Yeah. So part of the work that I'm doing is trying to educate men on the ways to actually make a woman feel safe again by deeply understanding her, being able to empathize with her, providing the structure, safety and security in the relationship environment to encourage her and give her the space to open up when she's ready and to kind of clean up the mess that other men may have left behind. Of course, she still has her own work to do. And it's not, you know, there is, she has to want to do that and soften and let go of that shield and drop into her feminine. But we as men can do so much to encourage that and create the space that invites her to do that and feel safe enough to do that if we're showing up in the right way.

Yeah. So how do you show up in that way? Like, what are some things we can do to create that? Well,

look, I think there's been a lot that we've talked about in this conversation, which kind of paints that picture. And I think so much of it is having the fundamentals of your life in order, having certain, you know, survival taken care of is a really great place to start. Once you've mastered survival, then obviously integrating your emotions, your trauma, your wounds, starting to do all of that in a kind of work is an amazing step to take because then the relationship that you form on the back of that is one of deep emotional intimacy, trust, safety, and a journey together, which is based on healing. And that if you can create a relationship around that where you're both conscious of each other's wounds, you know, what the trauma and the sensitive points are, you know, how to give the other person what they need. And you know, how to ask for what you need yourself when you're feeling triggered. This just smooths out the whole dynamic and the space of the relationship where both people can actually relax into a state of authenticity, they can feel comfortable being themselves and feel self expressed and also move towards having a state of secure attachment. And then boom, that's that's half that's pretty much most of the battle. And then once you have that beautiful relationship foundation in place, then that's an amazing resource in your life. Yeah. Then you can truly go out there into the world as a man and conquer and build and create and help people because you have this amazing safe harbor back at home, which is super healthy to nourish you and recover and, you know, return from the storms of life and provision yourself so you can keep going out there and making

a difference in

the world. Yeah, make you want a better place. I think that's like that's in many ways the pinnacle or the like once once somebody reaches the point of financial stability, once somebody has, you know, a healthy, well, maybe not even once somebody has a healthy relationship, but once you've mastered the survival things, so to speak, and built enough abundance for yourself that you can live in a good way, it's like then what? Then like I think make yeah help make the world a better place, like figure out something you can plug into to help improve the lives of others. Like that's one of the most meaningful things to be able to do at least for me, you know, absolutely. Yeah, there's a couple of different traditions that talk about how like service to something greater is like one of the highest, most rewarding things you can do in life. And I think that's accurate, you

know. Yeah, I think it's just a it's a core need, you know, contribution and the rewards that we receive inherently from offering something beautiful that others need. And then that is a gift of love and that nourishes us on an extremely deep level. I mean, that's at least how I experience it. Yeah. Yeah. Are

there

any other topics or things that like have sort of gotten brought up or that are on the tip of your tongue based on this conversation that you feel like, Oh, I want to I want to bring that in. I want to make sure we talk about that or that we didn't we didn't sort of touch on as deeply as you would have liked so far.

No, I think I mean, I think we've covered this. I mean, this topic, I think it's very, I don't want to stray too far from this because I think it's like a really important point to drive home. The only other thing that I would add is I think one of the things that has really helped us the most to go from toxic relationship to really thriving, healthy dynamic is understanding conflict, understanding conscious communication and learning how to hold the truth of any relational moment and any upset that we might feel as being her experience plus my experience. Inherently, we want to usually when we are triggered or faced with a moment of uncertainty, we want to demonize the other person and judge them and hold them accountable in order to validate what we're feeling in that moment. What has been so instrumental for us is developing this capacity for me to not react defensively, to be able to hold what she's feeling and also advocate for my own needs in that moment. Because before and in in past relationships, I would be somewhat very attuned to trying to like please and understand and apologize and make up for and and this, but it was at the neglect of my own needs. And that built up this big frustration inside of me because my needs were going unmet and unexpressed. So learning to actually articulate that was such a such a key shift for me where I realized that actually my needs are super important and it's actually very damaging to the relationship if I don't express how I'm feeling, what I think and what I need in certain moments, especially in difficult moments. So developing this more artful, easeful way of articulating boundaries, not as like a wall, but as an invitation to actually create mutually beneficial outcomes in the relationship was an absolute game-changer because we went from conflicts that would span weeks or months to if we fight when we fight, it's rare now, but we're over it in the same day and often we can dissolve it in the moment because we've learned how to communicate in a much more conscious fashion, because we've learned how to articulate our needs and our boundaries in a way that includes the other person instead of just this my way or the highway approach. So this was, yeah, this is such a shift. And I think a lot of men need this, understanding and need these teachings to be able to get

that. Yeah, I think that's super important. I mean, a lot of guys or a lot of people think of communication as this sort of like, oh, it's a soft skill that doesn't really don't need to spend time doing this, but I think it's really like one of the most important things we can do is learn how to communicate effectively. That shit will help you in all areas of your life, not just romantic, but like business friendships, family, et cetera. One of the biggest things that was a huge turning point in my relational growth was studying communication for like two years, you know, just not in any sort of official school, but I was regularly taking classes on non-violent communication and intimacy and how to express needs and desires and this sort of a thing. And I do encourage looking into non-violent communication for most people with the caveat that it's like, it's a set of tools, just like anything else, right? And you could use tools in a shitty way that doesn't help people, or you could learn to use them in an effective way. And for me, it really helped me understand how to navigate my own internal emotions and how to communicate them effectively. And yeah, it was a little bit messy in the beginning. But for me, that was a useful system that helped a lot. And I know some people get stuck in this sort of learning phase of it, but it's helpful to have different things to draw from. And

I'd say like, yeah, because it can be inherently clunky when you first begin, like it's this reflective listening and validating, it can often be very robotic. And I see when guys pick it up, we deliver it in such a way that our lover is just like, what the fuck are you doing? This is you pissing me off even more now. I don't want you to hear you validating my stuff with your robotic recipe. Like, I want you to actually feel me. But we need to get to, we need a stepping stone to get us to the point where we actually learn how to feel. We learn how to label what we're feeling. So we can actually articulate what is arising in our experience. And that's what so many men lack is that basic fundamental of actually being able to recognize what the fuck I'm actually feeling right now. How do I can, what are the tools that I have at my disposal to get clarity around that? And how can I articulate that in a way that doesn't make me come across like an absolute pussy? So I can deliver it in a way that actually creates deeper trust intimacy and turn on with my lover. But it's at the same time, deeply integral and truthful and vulnerable. And there is a sweet spot there. It's just it takes work to get there. It takes education, takes commitment, and a lot of practice. Totally. And it's 100%, a thousand percent worth that if you can, if you can push through that initial

discomfort. For sure. And I think with, at least with NVC, non-violent communication specifically, like a lot of people get really caught up in learning the actual speaking techniques of it. But there's this whole other side of it, which is really about, like you said, like cultivating the inner state of consciousness to be able to be aware of what's actually going on. And to be able to show up in good relationship with the person that you're with. That's foundational before even using the technique. It's like, okay, what's my internal consciousness? What's my internal state? How am I showing up here? Then using the tools from that place versus the top down, use the hammer kind of technique. That could be a whole other two-hour discussion now.

For sure. I think one of the easiest things to do with that is to, something I find extremely useful is just having the needs list and the feelings list. And just being able to pull up those pages. And in a moment of uncertainty where my lover says, what's up with you? What's wrong? And I have to sit there for five minutes and I'm like, I don't know what I'm feeling right now. But give me a bit of space and time. I just need to figure out what I'm feeling. I don't want to project it on you. And then I'll go into my room. I'll take a little bit of space. I'll look at that list and I'll be like, what the fuck am I feeling? And sit down with it. And then that actually gives me and it's like, oh, okay, I'm feeling neglect. Interesting. I've never put that word onto the feeling that I've experienced for my entire life. And all of a sudden it has a name. And then I'm able to actually articulate with that with her when the situation happened. And you said that thing, I felt like neglected. And that took me back to my childhood when my parents neglected me then. That's a soft spot for me. And then boom, the doorway to intimacy is wide open and we're back in connection.