That's

a good call out. And yeah, it always reminds me of like, if I really take a couple of days off and I come back, I'm like, I can see everything just so much more clearly. I'm like, Oh my God. Yes, I should have taken this time off way before. And it's so helpful. But then when you're in the moment, the week or two before you're like, it's going to be impossible. I have so much to do. And it's really hard to get that right. I

just think about if someone is not going to perform there, they're probably not going to perform. And like, what's going to give them the best chance of success? Is it to say, I care about you as a person. I see you're struggling, take a minute, come back and like, let's reset and see how we can move this forward versus like continuing to just push them and hammer them to come in and make those 50 more calls. I just think about it in the aspect of slow down to speed up. And that really applies to people too.

Totally. Well, it's funny in retrospect, I'm like thinking about all these now, like very human people-based management things. It feels like there's so many dimensions of being an effective manager and leader. It's almost like, I don't know if I can even take on this whole new thing because there's first the frameworks of people management and leadership and company strategy that you take on outside of an IC role. And then there's the performance and tactical stuff, right? Then there's the job. That alone to work with eight or 10 different people that have different skills and wills and backgrounds and all this stuff, just to get that right, feels like 150% job. And then you layer on the very one personal part of it feels like another whole thing that feels even harder. So yeah, there's a lot you can get right, but it's a big role.

Yeah. Yeah. No. And I think that goes back to what I was saying at the beginning of the conversation, right? Like you can have the best like frameworks, the best processes, the best setup in your organization. But if you're not really thinking about the human aspect of it and how you're supporting and taking care of the humans on your team, then you probably will be capping the results that you can have from a performance.

Does it matter if you have the right strategy and tactics if the people aren't motivated and trust you and all that kind of stuff? Yeah, that's a really good point. But no, this was awesome. I got a lot to think about. Hopefully other folks out there kind of reflecting on their leadership and management style and some areas to improve. But Shannon, appreciate you taking time out of your busy day to chat.

Thanks, Ross. Appreciate it. Okay.

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