The Art of Apology: Navigating Public Perception

In this episode, Simone and Malcolm explore the social and political consequences of public apologies. Discussing a study by Richard Hanania on how different demographics react to apologies, the Collinses elaborate on why apologizing can often make things worse, especially in public contexts where it is demanded. They share various examples including public figures like John Carmack and discuss concepts like in-group and out-group dynamics. Furthermore, Malcolm and Simone delve into psychological studies on apologizing, their effects on self-respect, trustworthiness, and the phenomenon of the 'doormat effect.'

The episode also touches on character traits of public figures like Trump and Jordan Peterson, and how maintaining a consistent public persona can influence one's likability and support. Finally, the Collinses share personal anecdotes and behind-the-scenes discussions, all contributing to a broader understanding of the intricate relationship between public image, apologies, and societal reactions.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] So who really, really, really punishes.

Approval people who make apologies about things. It is liberals where the result was 13.8 and even more than liberals, females, where the result was 16.30

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. Today came to me from a REU post that I was reading on X. Nice. And honestly, I didn't get this from XI, I got it from Facebook.

Malcolm Collins (2): Okay. But

Malcolm Collins: somebody screenshotted an ex post by from you, friend of the show who said, you know, who wrote a paper on this? So specifically he's talking to a guy who there was some conference called Based Con, and this guy John Carmack, backed out of Basscon because it had become too.

Controversial or rightwing, you know, from his perspective. So what he says is, it is unfortunate that Rob has made Basscon so intentionally provocative. Well, it's

Simone Collins: not called normy [00:01:00] Con. Come on.

Malcolm Collins: I feel a little uncomfortable after the events of last year. , You know, just whining basically that people too controversial, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then apologizing for having any involvement with. And Mia's like, what are you doing? Do not apologize. And then he goes, do you know who actually wrote a paper on this at Richard Hania? Been on the show before, by the way. Fans don't like it very much after he turned on Trump, but he's done interesting research anyway.

He found that when people presented with apologizing instead of standing firm, women in liberals were more likely to want to punish them. So I'm gonna get into the abstract of the study, and then we're going to look at how different groups reacted to this. And then after that, we're gonna go into all of the other research on apologizing that will generally show that we, when you should apologize, and that generally, at least in a public context, it is a bad idea to apologize.

Mm-hmm. If people are using, attempting to get you to apologize as a weapon against you, [00:02:00] IE you know, apologize or else. Bad thing will happen to you. It always gets worse when you apologize. A apologize when you're actually made a mistake. Not when people are pushing you. Unless you are 100% okay with flipping a hundred percent, like basically which team you're paying.

Simone Collins: Ray, what do you mean by apologize? When you're mid mistake like.

Malcolm Collins: So a great example of this is often used in business case studies. I think it was Tylenol or one of the medical companies Oh. Who released a product that was actually harmful to people. And then they did this big apology and removed at a huge cost very quickly, all of their products from the shelves.

Malcolm Collins (2): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And it, and it increased trust in the company a ton. And increased sales.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I think that's more like if you've made a legitimate mistake that. You wouldn't want to stand by, own it. Fix it right away.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Own it and fix it right away. So I'm not of the camp of never apologize. Mm-hmm. But apologize when you did something that was a [00:03:00] mistake.

Not when somebody has been like, oh, did you know X person was at that conference? Mm-hmm. And, and this is something that we personally went through. So if you look at the program, went

Simone Collins: through, go through all the freaking time.

Malcolm Collins: Or people we've had on our shows is people will call us and try to get us to attack people we have had on the shows for things they've done in other places.

Or the conference, the prenatals conference or the people who talk there. Right. Or, and, and I will note, like off the record, I took, kevin Dolan who organizes it aside, and Simone knows this. Like I had like an hour and a half argument with him. He's not

Simone Collins: off the record if you're saying this on

Malcolm Collins: the phone.

No, no, no, no. But I mean, like, I, I wasn't in public about this, right? No. Being like we should have more restriction on who can attend so we don't get people who could hurt other attendees at the event. That was very much my opinion, like my opinion was. We need to be more restrictive about this, right?

Not in reaction to people attacking us or with an [00:04:00] apology, just like, let's not give them the opportunity to drive this wedge or say, you know, Malcolm who appeared alongside figures like X and Y, right? And he was just like, absolutely not. We're not gonna do that. At the end of the day, I see the prenatal movement and everything we do is very much a team effort.

And if he is putting in the risk. A personal capital to make something like this happen. He gets to have the final call on stuff like that, even if I'm gonna help financially back him.

Simone Collins: No, and we have a lot of respect, like for the, the, the principle of it. Like we, we have a lot of practical qualms about it because we know that.

You know, there, there will be certain groups that will never go to a conference as long as it has a rep reputation like that. And we, we, we hate that, for example, many governments wouldn't sell, like send, send representatives to a conference like this because of those characteristics. Mm-hmm. So from a, a pragmatic standpoint, that's why you brought it up.

But from a philosophical standpoint, yeah. We, we don't like the idea of any form of [00:05:00] censorship or restrictions. Right. But

Malcolm Collins: he, he, he took the stance very firmly.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. And I respect that. I respect that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The moment he took this stance and said, this is the direction we're going as a conference, we never.

Publicly attacked him for that. We never publicly attacked any of the other people who were at the conference. We never said anything other than the media is being crazy about this. You know, they're overstating things. You know, you, what am I supposed to do? Like, run out of a conference because some controversial person shows up or some homophobic person shows up, right?

Like, I'm going to be like, and, and even so, like, I remember somebody told me that the guy who was running it, and, and this is why we can't. Back down on this stuff. And why we do need to present a united face once a decision has been made behind closed doors, which is to say somebody told me that Kevin Dolan, the guy who ran the conference was homophobic, and I was like, I don't remember him being homophobic.

And they're like, well, he's against gays getting married. And I'm like, he's. In Mormon, like of course he's against, what do you are, are you not allowed to be Mormon? Like, that seems way more offensive. Right? And this is, this is, [00:06:00] yeah.

Simone Collins: Let's, let's just stop the practice of religious freedom. Goodness. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, because they expand their, their sort of, umbrella of safety, right? Of, of things they can push back by continuing to, to gain ground in cards of the, the apologies that they demand. And so what I'm making here is you can disagree with the, anyone should be allowed to talk at this conference thing like this John Carmack guy.

Clearly did. But you have those conversations offline and with people, and if you, if, if, if you failed to persuade them, it means your arguments weren't good enough. Then stay as a team, right? Because we need to have our backs against each other and know that we can trust each other. And that when you attempt to appease this other group as we'll, see from the data we're gonna get into in a second you don't actually make them like you more or endear them to you.

You in fact make them want you to suffer more. You specifically the one who apologized to suffer more. Mm-hmm. So, in the abstract to this particular study, it is called does [00:07:00] apologizing work an empirical test of the conventional wisdom? Public figures often apologize after making controversial statements.

There are reasons to believe, however, that apologizing makes public figures appear weak and risk averse, which may make them less likable and lead members of the public to want to punish them. This paper presents the results of an experiment in which respondents were given two versions. Of real life controversies involving public figures.

Approximately half of the participants read a story that made it appear as if the person had apologized while the rest were led to believe that the individual had stood firm. In the first experiment hearing that Rand Paul apologized for his comments on civil rights did not change whether respondents were likely to vote for him.

Wynn presented with two versions of the controversy surrounding Larry Summer in his comments on women scientists and engineers. However, liberals and females were more likely to say he showed that he should face negative consequences for his statement. Wynn [00:08:00] presented with his apology. Oh, the effects on other groups were smaller, are neutral.

The effect suggests and this, this is very, very, very interesting. So the conservative figure right. Who, who went too far in a liberal perspective here? They, they were not. Punished for apologizing. But the, the liberal figure that Larry Summers, who I, I think ran Harvard and said that, you know, women are, are biologically different from men who went too far in a conservative direction, was punished for apologizing and only by specific demographics.

So, you know, and I'll put this on screen here. If you look at the table where they go over the results, it's really fascinating. So the groups that punished the apologizer more than the person who stood by their response males, the difference was only 0.1. There was slightly more punishment for the apologizer, but virtually statistically insignificant.

Right. Hmm. And I, and I note here that. In every one of the groups, the Apologizer was punished [00:09:00] more. The other groups that didn't really care as much were the moderate political people were with 6.3 and the conservative political people were with 6.5. So who really, really, really punishes.

Approval people who make apologies about things. It is liberals where the result was 13.8 and even more than liberals, females, where the result was 16.30

Simone Collins: boy. So both conservative and progressive females.

Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, women on average, but women on average are more likely to be progressive. So if you're looking for the, the, the sort of nexus here, it is liberal females who are extremely unwilling, and this is who makes up cancel mobs.

When you apologize, you just appear weak. You give them more chance to dig deeper. And, and hit you further. And we've seen organizations learning from this. REU was noting how American Eagle, they, they got, you know, we were in the era of [00:10:00] like woke ads for a while with a bunch of like fat disabled people who nobody actually aspired to be except for, I don't know, weird.

Fetishists but they, they now have the Great Genes ad. So, with Sydney Sweeney,

Simone Collins: which everyone is aware of now, and if you're not being clearly yes, it's American

Malcolm Collins: Eagle. In response to all the controversy published, Sidney Sweeney has great genes, is and always has been about the genes, her genes.

Her story will continue to celebrate how everyone wears their AE jeans with confidence their way. Great. Jeans look good on everyone. And they, they attempted to like the cancel mob attempted to be like, Hey, you can't say this. You know, this is horrible, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They didn't back down.

And I'd say in terms of public perception, it appears to have helped them greatly. So before I go into additional studies, I'll just talk about the psychology of, of why, right? So the person who's attacking you for breaking cultural norms, right, like randomly on Twitter, they don't know [00:11:00] you, right? Like, you're not doing this to protect their community.

They're not doing this because they know that like you're not actually a threat to their community. They're, they're not doing this to, that protect, you know, people who are in vulnerable positions because there's many other things they'd rather be doing. You know, the famous data, there's more people living in slavery now than at any point in human history.

You know, they're doing this is specifically because they want to have power over you, right? Like that's the point. That's the motivator. For the individual who goes on Twitter and slanders you or attempts to cancel you or yells angry things at you, they want to feel power over you and they see an opportunity to exercise that power over you.

If you allow them to exercise that power over you, what you are doing is giving them that positive dopamine hit that they wanted. Mm-hmm. Basically putting up your hand and saying, please keep it up. Please [00:12:00] keep punishing me. And keep in mind that his study, like the participants didn't know what they were getting into.

Right. You know, this is a, a. You know, two, two sample populations here, right? Like this is a blind study. This is showing people's real predilections, progressives and women really do punish you significantly more and will desire to punish you significantly more if you apologize. Before I go further with other studies, anything you wanna wanna say on this?

Simone Collins: I mean, I also, the impression that this is one of those you're looking at very community ingroup and outgroup based political ideologies and biotypes what behavioral types, like women on average are more group based, right? They're more group consensus based as are progressives at this point in time.

Mm-hmm. And I think also what's going on is this sort of mob mentality of. You take the weak one and you attack it if everyone else is attacking it. And if they, if they like bow and like expose their neck, then you just go in for the [00:13:00] kill. Yeah. So your only choice in these highly cliquey, highly group-based tribal societies is to fight back.

Ruthlessly and never show vulnerability or they will smell blood and take you out. That's kind of the intuitive impression I get. Do you think that that has something to it?

Malcolm Collins: No, I think that, that, that does have something to it, but I also think that there, there you can go too far in the other direction.

For example, I think Trump often goes too far in the other direction of, of never admitting mistake or fault or that any of his initiatives didn't work out the way that he intended them to. Hmm. And that is a shame because I think that. The correct pass is to stand firm when you're standing with your people.

Yeah. But when you make a decision that genuinely turns out not in the way that you intended it to because of unforeseen factors or because you made a missing judgment, you can raise your honor in the general group's perception of you by saying, Hey, I messed up here. Now to, to go further. 'cause I, I, I'd love to go over some other [00:14:00] studies on this because I found this to be really interesting.

One study The effects of attributions of intent and apology on forgiveness when saying, sorry, may not help the story. It showed that apologies reduced forgiveness and increased blame when the offenses attributed as intentional EEG deliberate harm. Oh, but they promote forgiveness for unintentional offenses.

Oh, inexperienced participants were less forgiving. Of intentional transgressions who apologize compared to those who didn't. So note here, if you basically quote unquote accidentally, like, offend a group by going over what is seen as like political norms. I each saying, well, you know, women are actually different from men.

It's very clear that you made that choice intentionally, right? That will hurt you if you apologize for it. If you do something like a government program that doesn't end have the effects that you meant for it to have you will not face a penalty for apologizing for that. That's, that's a hugely different thing.

And that's, that's what we're seeing from this. So it's not, never apologize, [00:15:00] but never apologize for the type of thing where you stated your earnest opinion and then. You were forced to back down from that earnest opinion. That doesn't work. That makes everyone hate you more.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: when saying, sorry, may not help the impact of apologies on social rejection across multiple studies in 1800.

Apologies and social rejection scenarios, EEG declining invitations, increased hurt feelings, aggression measured by behaviors like allocating hot sauce to the rejecter and to express forgiveness, but did not increase actual forgiveness. Mm, apologies were often perceived as insincere. So, when you have to socially reject somebody, do not apologize.

Just say, no, I'm not, I'm not interested. Not, you know, and then change the subject. But that's helpful

Simone Collins: because I'm so tempted to apologize in those instances. And I bet a lot of people are,

Speaker: yeah,

Simone Collins: you don't want, you don't wanna disappoint them. But yeah, I guess you're, you're just, you're just kind of [00:16:00] twisting the knife when you do Right.

Yeah, it's not nice. The doormat

Malcolm Collins: effect when forgiving erodes self-respect and self-concept clarity. Forgiving an offender who offers an inre uncommitted apology or shows low trustworthiness, decreases the victim's self-respect and self-conception of clarity over time. Making them feel like a quote unquote doormat in contrast of forgiveness after a genuine apology boosts self-respect.

I, I find that to be pretty interesting. What is this sign here? Oh, I accidentally didn't paste the title of this study. But this study showed reviews why people avoid or give perfunctory apologies, including perceived ineffectiveness. Apologies can fail or backfire if they threaten the apologize or self-image, or if the victim sees low concern leading to reduce forgiveness and heen conflict.

Ah. So, and then what was shown here is that apologies can even hurt the person you're apologizing to if it's because you had to re reject them.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. [00:17:00] That's interesting. Well, and, and, and clearly when you credibly threaten someone's self-image. Yeah, it doesn't matter if it's in the form of, of an apology or just as any sort of statement.

That's danger zone.

Malcolm Collins: Danger zone. Yeah. Well, and, and you also see this, there's been some studies of public figures around this. So a qualitative case study of cancel culture among public figures. Looked at public cases like James Murray, Mimi Groves, Joe Rogan, Dave Chappelle, and analyze Twitter reactions and media narratives and outcomes.

Apologies were often unheard amid media focus and drama. Caving eeg, Joe Rogan's platforms changes polarized views without resolution resistance. Eeg, chappelle, sometimes shortened backlash often, yes, apologies, exacerbated lawsuits, EEG subscribers and opportunities. Cancel efforts backfired by boosting target support so you could even win.

So a great example of this recently, and we have some episodes on, this was the Keisha instance. Somebody attempted to cancel this V to Keir Sheer being. Mildly right wing. And they also tried to [00:18:00] cancel our friend, friend of the show. She's been on our show before.

Simone Collins: Leaflet.

Malcolm Collins: Leaflet, yeah. And in, in both instances they stood their ground and they ended up gaining a bunch of followers from this and a bunch of support for this.

Whereas the canceler just had like a giant fist fly back in their face and basically has, has dropped off the earth. And it was the same person in both instances. And, and they had their, their little support circle. Now, in part, I would say that this is because the power of cancellations had significantly dropped in the era of blue sky.

Because, you know, there the, the people who were most likely to cancel you have now trapped themselves in a crystal. Let's go. Said, you know, Trump. Trap the, the progressives in a crystal and now nobody could hear their screams except for their, their other cancel mob. Well, I mean, it really matters. A blue sky is one of the best things that has happened for conservatives on the internet.

It has completely,

Simone Collins: not really. We used to get a lot of engagement on X and now we don't because they all went away. We we're wage waiters. If we, if we're not engaged with, by [00:19:00] people who hate us, who's going to engage with us, Mel?

Malcolm Collins: If they're not boosting us. Yeah. Yeah. We got very good at manipulating them which was great.

I mean, that's how we ended up really creating and solidifying the prenatal list movement. But I will say I am glad that we sort of surfed the last wave of this to our, you know, the public stardom and now we, and note here, you can be like, your channel doesn't have that many subscribers. Yeah.

But we get a lot of views. And, and watch time. And even without that the amount that we're in the media, you know, we get about, for the past six months, we've had about two pieces written on us every week which is a lot, you know, in terms of the reporters we're talking to and everything. And, and that only became true because of Cancel mobs.

Cancel mobs. And it's, it's also a lot more fun than being famous for like things, because I was talking to Simone today. I really love reading pieces where they're interviewing her. Because, you know, like it was, if we were like Greta Thornberg or something and we were promoting something that everyone agreed with, it would be very much like, you know, the [00:20:00] reporter comes and, and you give them the information and then they craft some great story about how you were taken away by the police or something like this.

But the reporters come to us looking for a fight. Like every line often reads like, you know, the, them swinging the sword in some competition. And then Simone replying was like a deft Perry. You know, like. But you are a reason he's not

Simone Collins: pointing out all the times where literally like journalists have been like, well, so you know, why, why do people hate you?

And then I, using terms and explanations, more articulate than our enemies or our, our critics explain why our critics don't like us. On, on the record or on film, and Malcolm like just gets increasingly

Malcolm Collins: worried. Yeah. That happened in the beginning. You, you grew up about not doing that. A little. But what I'm saying here is, is they, they come at you nowadays when I see pieces and I'm just so proud to be married to you where it's just like, swing, like you are a racist.

And it's like actually. Aren't you and the [00:21:00] people like you, the re the real racist with, with a very good argument and it's like counter, and then they have to, they have to swing back against you because, oh no, they thought that they'd just be coming to cut you up. No. That is what they think. They think they're coming here to just catch us, you know, looking terrible.

Right. And so we're gonna. They're a racist and you don't want women to have rights and you hate everyone. And then it's, it's, it's, you know, block, block, block counter repose. And it comes off great. I love it. It's very fun. It's way more fun than a journalist liked us, right? What, what a good life, what a boring life that would be to be some, you know, and then surrounded by sy of fans who think exactly what we think.

Like imagine Greta Thornburg. Life, right? Like everyone who follows her, like her weird little Gaggle, harem, I don't know what you wanna call it. They all agree with her on everything. If you look at the prenatal movements, oh yeah. She

Simone Collins: only has, she can only lose, she, she can only go down from where she is.

Whereas when our position is to be the villains. [00:22:00] You know, what, what do we have to lose? We have nothing to lose. We're like, no, no, no, no. Like, frame us more negatively. You should ask this question. Let me find a more controversial way to say that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we will replace you. No, but the, the what I mean to say is that if you look at like her core friends who are running the movement, they all have about the same perspective.

If you look at our core friends, it's like. Conservative Mormons and Catholics and Orthodox Jews and like, and many of them we don't agree with on many things at all. Right? Like, but we work together because we're working to preserve our individual cultures into the future and, and create a bright future for humanity even though we have different, you know, priors which is just so much more fun than organizing a movement where everyone's forced to tow a specific line.

Malcolm Collins (2): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: That would feel really, depressing to me, to be honest. But, but, but that's, that's the alternative. You know, we had taken this other pathway next study here I'm sorry, the language behind YouTube, apologies and cancel culture analysis of 10 YouTube videos in. 55 [00:23:00] on linguistic cues.

EG sorry, pauses and reception. Negative keywords and gestures conveyed an apology, but wrist seeming performative, harsh comments reflect a mob backlash. There was a lot of harsh comments on the apologies videos. Oh, so, so they're doing like

Simone Collins: a sien sentiment analysis on,

Malcolm Collins: she just showed that in many cases, apologies made things worse for the person who was apologizing.

Simone Collins: Very interesting. And there's just such an interesting evolving culture around Apolo. Apologies as well. Like the, the social media convention of writing an apology in a notes app and then publishing it. Really? Yes. Tell me about this.

Malcolm Collins: You dunno. This,

Simone Collins: it's, it's just a, a very common way that some people officially post their apologies.

And another way is, is, you know, the sort of regretful, tearful apology image that is 100 or like video that, that is known believes, you know, it's all just sort of acted. And yeah, they just, it's, it's very much seen, [00:24:00] almost, to me, it reminds me of ritualistic forms of. Attempting to save face or accepting dishonor in, in ancient or historical cultures.

But now we just, ah, yes. Now you must write in your notes app your apology and post the image of it online. And, and

Malcolm Collins: everyone will say, oh, okay. Okay. Clearly,

Simone Collins: well, no. Then everyone has to comment on it and decide on. Whether your apology will be accepted, and the answer is always no. It will not be accepted, and then you'll be disgraced for a while and then people will get distracted.

What's funny

Malcolm Collins: about that, that original study that I read that I found so interesting is that it was written by Richard Hania who literally ended up apologizing and changing sides after Trump's victory for stuff that Trump said he was going to do in the campaign cycle. Yeah. So he fell to this exact apology cycle that he noted.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I don't, I, I don't know if he saw it that way, because I think his, the [00:25:00] line he's pulling, at least from what I've gathered in an interview he did with Jesse Skel and Katie Herzo, unblocked and reported, is that he never apologized for anything. It just happens to be that the Trump crowd. Is too dumb and lowbrow for his gala.

Green ideas. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: We were talking about this and I was like, but they're literally not like the, the, the online conservatives right now are like way more the intellectual crowd. Like if you wanna talk with like the high intellectuals at the internet. Most of them are conservatives these days. And very few of them are progressives these days.

Simply 'cause you're not allowed to have a wide diversity of opinions in the progressive sphere, which intellectuals don't really like. Or people who are like big intellectual heavyweights. But what he means is he, he clearly meets here. 'cause it is true is that if you want to ape this sort of high status urban monoculture, right?

Like you, that is not within the conservative sphere. And if you look at a lot of what Richard Ananya has done through his decisions, it's chase. This high perceived status culture. [00:26:00] And I think that that is fundamentally what was at stream of this decision for him is he didn't realize that he was going to have to accept and indulge in and celebrate low culture instead of high culture by becoming a conservative figure.

And he didn't want that. He wanted to be invited to the cocktail parties, you know?

Simone Collins: Yeah, I, I could see that. Because even in the very beginning he, like, when he was a teenager, he'd post on these like. I mean, they were controversial, but I, I think still they, they saw themselves as like very intellectual style places.

So his, his preference is to be in the heterodox, but strictly, or like forbidden, but strictly intellectual spheres. But anyway, yeah, I don't think he saw himself as apologizing.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no, no. I mean, he wanted, I, I, I think that the, the, the thing here is he wanted to be high, high culture. Yeah. And, and that's what he was seeking, by the way.

Something I didn't know about him that you told me when we were going over this. Richard Hania is half Palestinian and [00:27:00] half Jordanian. Which is very close to Palestinian as well. A neighboring country, which is just, I, I didn't know that.

I didn't know I knew any Palestinians who I respected the son

Simone Collins: of immigrant parents. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But he's a Zionist, by the way. For, for, for people who don't know, does, does Palestinian Zionist. That would be a fun thing to have him on for. Yeah,

Simone Collins: we should, we should. I mean, we should talk with him about that

Malcolm Collins: Palestinian Zionist.

Maybe that's

Simone Collins: why our audience doesn't like him, is because he's Zionist.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, we are already Zionists as people

Simone Collins: know

Malcolm Collins: about that they, yeah. They keep

Simone Collins: coming back and we're, we're all for it. So I don't know what's going on. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well I think a lot of our audience you know, takes pleasure in knowing that we don't agree with them and everything, you know?

Hmm. So many. I think you, you know, talking heads on the internet and stuff like that, you go to them because they're gonna confirm your beliefs and laugh at the other side. Yeah. Which gets so old. Ah. And you people come to us. But I think the thing that people know about us when they, when they come to our channel and they see is we don't really chase status [00:28:00] in the way that like, like we clearly have a cohesive internal ideology and goal for our species and our children.

And it is to replace the rest of you. We'll, we'll replace you is genetically modified, lab grown super humans made from artificial wombs. And

Simone Collins: I mean, it's true. I roll my eyes, but it's true.

Malcolm Collins: You, you guys can stay in a little zoo. We'll make on earth for vanilla humans while we go out and explore the soul earth.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we don't, we don't plan to stay here either, so we're not like really going to Yeah. Don't worry. Like

Simone Collins: if, if we annoy you, we'll be gone.

Malcolm Collins: We'll be gone. Don't worry, don't worry about it. Don't worry. Okay.

Simone Collins: No, I think what, what I hope for, for this channel and, and what I love, I do love that there are so many people who listen to us.

Probably the majority of people who listen to us disagree with us on quite a few things. But they, they often listen because they want people to bring up Interesting. Intellectually engaging and relevant and actionable subjects that they then. [00:29:00] Our opinions help them sharpen their own, which are different, quite often different, but they hadn't yet because most, most people aren't talking about these things.

They, they hadn't engaged themselves with the ideas enough to even know where they stood. And because we randomly bring these things up, they're like, okay, well they're wrong. But here's what I think. And I love that because I mean, in the end that that serves our agenda of wanting to see an even greater ideologically.

Diverse diaspora of humans out there. And if we can get people to just form more and more varied opinions on things just by deflecting off of our opinions, power to the people, like, that's so good. I want that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm, and, and I, I, I do find the intellectual diversity, and that's why I like our, our discord, so much of our audience really fun.

Because we don't fall into just the typical, like we've been called manosphere influencers or like tech right. Influencers or like, I, I mean, I wonder if it creates a [00:30:00] ceiling on our audience size, which would be quite disappointing if it does. But I have seen the audience of most of the other sort of mainstream right-wing influencers, often at some point, unless they're just doing the incredible, like down the line, Griff often turn on them.

So, you know, when is our audience gonna turn? Is

Simone Collins: Jordan Peterson's original works? Were extremely obscure. Like his, his first books and everything, his work up until this random point at which he got famous. Mm-hmm. Very inaccessible. Not mainstream. Highly niche.

Malcolm Collins: Well, did his audience turn on him? I don't feel like I, his audience hasn't

Simone Collins: turned on him.

I'm just giving you an example of how like, hopefully we don't have an audience feeling, even though we may do some more obscure stuff. That's only for like a very specific type of people that really like to engage intellectually. There is a, a chance that someday maybe we may reach a larger audience by fulfilling a more simplistic and car role.

Maybe not exactly Daddy who wears weird suits for Jordan Peterson. Maybe something a little [00:31:00] different from that. Actually,

Malcolm Collins: Jordan Peterson's great here because, I mean, Jordan Peterson for me shows like, you can really F up. Jordan Peterson has. Effed up on everything he promised people he would do. He's like, follow the advice that I give you, and your life is gonna be like X and Y.

And yet he's been unable to, you know, follow his own advice, whether it's, you know, cleaning his room or you know, staying mentally disciplined and stoic or, yeah. No, I mean, it's like, how, how is the God of like stoic philosophy these days? Like a, a drug addict for a while, right. You know? Clearly he's not, he, he, he's not able to, like the device he's giving you guys is not actionable or he would be acting on it.

Right. But but I think

Simone Collins: you're missing what he, I don't think people necessarily, they don't want the advice. They want daddy and he's daddy, you know what I mean?

Malcolm Collins: Even being the case, he has stayed. I think a fairly unasa person was in the Republican influencer space. And I think it's because.

Look, even though his advice doesn't appear actionable, it doesn't appear [00:32:00] that he betrayed his, like he clearly thought it was, he's clearly doing his best with, with, with what he has at trying to describe the world as he sees it and move forwards.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. And

Malcolm Collins: I think that he's done stuff that like for example, one of the things he's criticized for is being like, well, you know, like theoretically God exists and like, you know, not really confirming a belief in God in the way other people would confirm a belief in God.

You know, because it's not a, you know. And a lot of people criticize him for this, but I actually think that this is part of why he has stayed so beloved is because he doesn't kowtow to just what his audience wants him to do. E even at the most deep level where when it would be so easy for him to just say, yes, a traditional God as Christians understand it exists, the Christian God is real,

Malcolm Collins (2): blah, blah, blah.

Malcolm Collins: He'll be like, well, the Christian God is meta physically real or, or like metaphorically real, you know, he is like a, eh. Analogically. It's real, you know? Okay. And, and, and, and he doesn't have to do that, but he does do that, which I think shows intellectual [00:33:00] integrity, intellectual integrity which has, has, has kept people alongside him, whereas, wait, so Okay.

Simone Collins: Vis-a-vis like. Saying you're religious without saying you're religious. I, I just saw a clip today where someone was a, a journalist, was, was asking Donald Trump, who, you know, says that he's a, a Christian, and that specifically his favorite book is the Bible. And these journalists were like, well, okay, can you know, can you give us, you know, what's, what's your favorite passage from the Bible?

And Trump's like. Listen, that's very personal. You know, that this is a very personal thing. You know, I, I, I just, just thought the kind of thing I think people should be talking about and they're like, no, but really just like one, you know, one verse, it inspires you. He's like, no, this is just very personal.

Like,

Malcolm Collins: it's clear he has no effing idea.

Simone Collins: Of course he doesn't, but I mean, what where would you put that in intellectual honesty? That is, that is a classic Trump non apology,

Malcolm Collins: but he's emotionally honest. E everybody knows who Trump is and [00:34:00] what he's really about, you know? Mm-hmm. I, I don't think that he's successfully you, you can watch two people talk.

And, and Trump may tell more like objective lies, but they're not lies in, in a, I dunno how to put it, but like, in a, in a, the gist of the point, right? Like they're eating the cat and the, he says, my

Simone Collins: favorite book is the Bible. He means like, I mean, my favorite thing is everyone's favorite thing and everyone's favorite thing is the Bible, so, well, what he means

Malcolm Collins: is like, I am on the side of Christians.

Chill out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. On the side of Christians, that's great. When he says something, the cats and the dogs, people are like, oh, he lied. But like he is right. That like these people are culturally different from us and, and do things in, in different ways than us, right? Yeah.

Simone Collins: Hundred percent.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: In, in ways that we may find culturally abhor, if

Simone Collins: you interpret all things Trump says as metaphors.

Malcolm Collins: As the metaphor for what's happening. No, no, but what I mean is the other politicians, right? Uhhuh,

Simone Collins: Uhhuh Trump

Malcolm Collins: just went out there and he read that in a news, [00:35:00] one of his like far right newspapers and then just repeated it.

I don't think he thought he was trying to make, probably Laura

Simone Collins: Loomer told him.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, he probably probably wasn't trying to lie to people. Actually. I think it's very clear that he wasn't trying to lie to people. He just said what he saw on like his Twitter feed that morning. Mm-hmm. That's a very emotionally honest thing to do.

Totally. Whereas. You know, his opponent on stage you know, studied forever what the voter wants to hear. And then was saying that, you know, twisting the facts to be true, but, but what, you know, their scorecard and, and looking, you know, high class and, and, and looking good to their high class friends. And th that emotionally doesn't resonate with people.

And so I think that that's how Trump's been able to get around this. Hmm. You know, it is, it is actually pretty remarkable that Trump has really only expanded his base over time. Good point. Yeah. In terms of you know, who, who supports him. And I, I think that that'll happen into the future as long as he keeps this sort of emotional honesty.

He is who he is. Nobody [00:36:00] is like, when he does something that, like when the progressives are like, oh, he did this thing. Like, can you believe it? Everyone's like, I, I mean. Yeah, it sounds like something he'd do. You know, I I, that, that seems about right to me.

Simone Collins: Well, and I think that's, that goes back to our important character theory, which I think does kind of dovetail well with this apology concept, which is that you should have a public persona with very clear virtues and very clear vices.

And what makes Trump exceptional is that. If you ask, you know, 10 people what's right and wrong with Trump, they're all gonna have pretty consistent answers. Whereas if you do the same with like Kamala Harris or Hillary Clinton, you're just gonna get so many different answers. And that means that you can't really control your image as well.

And the most important thing is as long as your vices are vices that do not disqualify you from the position you are trying to achieve in society or the job you're trying to get or whatever. Then you're fine. And no [00:37:00] trump's your

Malcolm Collins: vices do not change. Like Yeah, as soon as your vice, if your vices don't disqualify, basically anything can leak as long as it's in line with

Simone Collins: your vice and you Yeah, and you don't have to apologize.

That's one of those things, like if it, if it's your known vice, then you, you also get kind of a get outta jail free card and like when

Malcolm Collins: it leaked that you, oh, Trump slept as a prostitute. Everyone was like, everyone was like, what did you expect? We knew this. Yeah. I mean, of course he did. Was there somebody who thought that didn't happen?

Like mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But if you try to hide your vice, if he tried to f himself off to society as some kind of a paragon of virtue and morality and family values, who you know.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. No, then that would be really bad. Yeah. And, and you know, for us, you know, I think that we're known, this is why like I'm able to do an episode where I'm like, love isn't real.

I don't really love my wife or kids, you know? And it doesn't become so big scandal. 'cause the progressives have been saying that about us since forever. They've been like, he beats his kids and he doesn't really love them, and he blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or for like a normal press thing, that would be like a.[00:38:00]

Okay, this is it. This is over for you. How, how dare you leak that? Right,

Simone Collins: so-called prenatal is doesn't actually Yeah. Isn't actually a kid person.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You

Simone Collins: are actually a kid person. I guess that's not what they would say. Isn't actually like emotionally driven to have children, which you how gross.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Having tea. What are they to

Simone Collins: you? Toys. Pets. Exactly. Simone. Oh man. I'm just so disappointed. People

Malcolm Collins: disappointed in these animals. I

Simone Collins: have children because it makes me feel good. Mm.

Malcolm Collins: But at the end of the day, you've gotta keep in mind, when you apologize, you're retreating. That's what I an apology is.

Mm-hmm. When you apologize. Not because you made a genuine mistake, which I think conservatives need to get better at doing.

Simone Collins: 100%.

Malcolm Collins: But you apologize because, because what conservatives have learned, and this is true, is they can always tell you, well, that offended me. How dare you believe that? Restate what you said, right?

Or, or [00:39:00] apologize for holding these beliefs. They can always expand the, the, the bubble of offense. And they use this to push us further and further back into crazy things like, oh God, what's the controversy right now in the uk? Everyone's freaking out because a, a trans woman in the UK was working at like a.

Some fancy department store, like clearly not passing. And wanted to try like, walked into the, the girl's changing room and tried to change the bra of a 13-year-old to get it fitted for her to like, feel up her breasts and everything. And everyone was like, what? Why did you allow this? And so JK Rowling called a a what, what's the word?

Whatever, where you don't buy from a store.

Simone Collins: Oh, a boycott.

Malcolm Collins: A boycott. And like

Simone Collins: the first word that came to my mind was fois. Yeah, kind of same thing. JK

Malcolm Collins: Rowland called the fois.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, she did.

Simone Collins: That's they're functionally the same thing. Come on.

Malcolm Collins: So she called her fois and then all the you know, like, like classically, [00:40:00] all the people were like, this is so offensive.

And it's like, oh, so you'll just. Because no reasonable person thinks that that's a good thing to normalize. Any guy who says that they identify as a woman being able to fondle underage girls, like that's, that's not a normal thing. It is normal for people to be freaked out that that's happening in a major department store.

You know, so. You sh they're completely in the right. But what we've learned is they'll just expand the, the, the scope of normal as much as they need to. Until the point where it's like, how dare you know, at first it's elite, have, you know, sex parties that they invite minors to, you know, this is a conspiracy and eventually it's gonna be like, how dare you you know.

Attack these maps people. Well, yeah. So speaking of that, people,

Simone Collins: On, on the Epstein issue, per your philosophy, I, my, my guess if I'm applying this advice on apologizing strategically, well [00:41:00] correctly, what the Trump administration should have done. When they decided to not ultimately be 100% transparent with this was instead to say, I'm sorry, we said we were gonna share all of this.

We have subsequently learned that from a national security standpoint, we just can't do it. And this is one of those instances in which, for the, the best interest of the American public, we're gonna have to, you're gonna have to take our word for this, and it sucks.

Malcolm Collins: Or, or what they should have said is the, the, the, the files that could have proven something else happened here are no longer accessible to us.

The, the Democrats scrubbed them. You know, one of these people will be like, oh, Trump's not doing it. 'cause he's on the Epstein list, as I've pointed out before. It doesn't pass basic logic, it's not style. If the Democrats had evidence that Trump was in, in a hard, uncontroversial way that wasn't leaked already tied to the Epstein stuff that [00:42:00] would've been leaked mm-hmm.

That would've been during the election cycle. Like, oh, but he has a

Simone Collins: sexual taste of a poor man, not a rich man. And if you know what I mean, like Richmond are, hEPA files.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. We, we actually talk about this in our book. It's, it's, it's very interesting. So males have a very inter, and we have an old episode on this to be like, why do the people exist that are attracted to this in, in, in mostly communities.

Like why are there these weird. Sex parties and stuff. As a male, you're sort of drawn between two very strange and opposite extremes in terms of arousal patterns. You either can optimize for making absolutely sure a thing is a female. Mm-hmm. So that means

Simone Collins: you're attracted to busty b some Brazilian butt lift style women and

Malcolm Collins: not just a female, but healthy.

Mm-hmm. So, so what does it mean to be a very healthy, it means you have very large breasts. You have a very large. But you look very voluptuous. You have long nails. Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Definitely female. No question about that. Definitely female. We'll survive the winter, can carry a baby to term.

Malcolm Collins: This is, this is [00:43:00] what poor people as arousal patterns optimize for.

Yeah. Because you need

Simone Collins: that immediate assurance that they will, they will last for now. I mean you can even

Malcolm Collins: just see this from like basically looking at. Right. Like, if you, if you look at like the, the traits, like when I go to see somebody who's got like five inch nails and like giant BGAs, I'm like, oh, you're a poor person.

Right? Like, and you're trying to appeal to poor people. This is, this is a very poor thing. But when you look at the, the very wealthy the, the, the other thing you can optimize for as a male is I'm not optimizing for. The most certain it's a female person, but for the longest fertility window I can get out of her.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Basically total lifetime value, like you have the luxury to play the long game, so you're going to try to get an asset that will last the longest.

Malcolm Collins: Right. The problem is, is that the traits that signal that someone is a female are typically inversely correlated. With links of fertility window, IE, [00:44:00] longer fertility window is smaller, breast, smaller, but more boyish figure.

And if you see the, some of the women that, like the, the wealthiest men in the world go after they have this body type. Mm-hmm. And it, it is just cla it, it's, but there are other men.

Simone Collins: Yeah, including men who are wealthy now, but either have like a weird, like poor man mindset or came from more humble beginnings.

Just like

Malcolm Collins: Jeff Bezos, like his wife does not look like a rich one. I didn't say it. You

Simone Collins: said it. Okay. But like, and also Trump, and this is why I'm like, Trump is not one of the people who I think is on like the Epstein list or something. Like there aren't videos of him because that's just not his, just not his type.

He goes for the the, he goes for the, definitely a woman people.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Not the, where you're looking at the, what's an example of like an avatar of the other type? You're looking at somebody like Grimes, right? Like Grimes is probably as hot as you can get in terms of what rich people find. Hot. Very

Simone Collins: gamine.

Very, yeah. [00:45:00] Ethereal. Yeah. Thin. Yeah. Yeah. What, who are some other examples? I mean, like, a lot of, a lot of models are like that. Yeah. Just very young, very thin. A little bit, yeah. But yeah, that wasn't, yeah. So yeah,

Malcolm Collins (2): you just, you think that Trump should

Simone Collins: have, in this case, even though this is such a delicate issue, 'cause he had to break a campaign promise, he should have apologized in some way with this

Malcolm Collins: part.

I agree. He should have said, I, I effed up and I would have, had I been in his position. But you know, he, I, I can see why he learned not to apologize.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I guess when in doubt, if you have to choose just one. Like you, you sometimes apologize or you never, ever, ever apologize. It's probably just safer to have a policy of never, ever, ever apologizing.

Simone Collins (2): I agree.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Hmm. No. Have

Malcolm Collins: we apologized on anything on this show? I don't know. I

Simone Collins: don't know. Like when I [00:46:00] tweeted today, I said that we, we made a mistake in acting as though it was just communism that only worked in certain contexts, and that democracy also only works in certain contexts, and we've learned.

But that wasn't an apology. It's not like anyone's like accused us of doing that. So, no, I don't think we, I don't think we have.

Malcolm Collins: But

Simone Collins: yeah. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins (2): I think I've,

Malcolm Collins: I've, well, no, I, I, I've apologized for things I did in the distant past. I, like, I slept around a lot in the distant past and I now think that that's wrong and that's not something that I would recommend that my children do.

Which is sort of an apology, but it's more just saying that, I don't know.

Simone Collins: I mean, you, you're like, you are a wing man to, well, sort of, to other women.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I mean, I tried to help. I didn't do it in like a mean way. But I, I don't think that it's something that I would promote today.

Speaker: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: But I was never famous when I was doing that, so I never promoted it in the way that other people might promote it.

Simone Collins: Well, for what it's worth, you, you don't. [00:47:00] You I, I checked on t. You did? You signed on. I love that. I signed on, I got verified. Well, 'cause I was thinking maybe there's like episode fodder here. I, I wanna explore it more and see what people's actual reports of people are to see if there's something for an episode in there.

I would

Malcolm Collins: love it if you look up people who we meet in like business context and stuff.

Simone Collins: Oh my god.

Malcolm Collins: You should look up like old bosses.

Simone Collins: Oh, no, I should. Oh, no. Okay. Well, I know what I'm doing tonight after dinner, but I didn't have anything on tea. Nobody complained about me. No, there's nothing I, I I flagged it.

So that if someone does post something that I will know that it'll

Malcolm Collins: come up in your Yeah. It,

Simone Collins: it actually asks you once you're verified and you go through the signup flow, like, are you married and do you wanna know if your husband comes up? Because Yeah, you might not want to. And I, I appreciate that they ask.

Malcolm Collins: That's actually pretty cool. I mean, yeah. So for people who think that I might have some, like scandalous history or be [00:48:00] like, this is like reverse Ashley Madison, right? Like, you, you can find out if some influencer is actually out there. Scandal it up and I guess well,

Simone Collins: but see, I wouldn't trust what's posted about influencers because I would expect people to make stuff up and I don't, true, I probably shouldn't include this in our episode because it would incentivize people to go on the platform and make things up.

So you should probably not,

Malcolm Collins: no, I think they'd make things up in a way that's very silly and, and oh, where

Simone Collins: it's like, obviously not you.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Our, our real stories are stranger than fiction.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Our real stories, if people knew like our actual scandals, they'd be like, oh my God, what the, like, okay, that makes so much sense.

That makes, so any of our actual scandals, everyone is going to be like, because there are things where I'm like, I do not want the public to deal with this. But people would hear it and they'd be like, like, it, it'd be one of those like, just drop the microphone and walk away. Things like.

Simone Collins: Of course it checks out [00:49:00] whatever.

Yeah, yeah. Just, just like Trump and his, his various peccadillos, everyone's like, yeah, but how are you surprised by this? No one's surprised by that, so,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Okay. Well

Malcolm Collins: anyway, love you to death, Simone. I love you too. Tonight we're just gonna do the slow air fryer, right.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but I kind of wanna backup for this

Malcolm Collins: because yeah, it's not very good.

Can I make

Simone Collins: some Giza for you as like a backup maybe just to be safe.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, za would be great. Let's see if it works. And if it doesn't work, I'll have some za.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I don't need mini zas, you know, keep in mind no more than like three meat zas and a couple vegetable ones. If I'm only doing ZA or just

Simone Collins: two, if I have the big pork ones, those ones are like fricking steak.

Yeah. Just two of

Malcolm Collins: the big pork ones. Yeah, that's fine.

Simone Collins: I, I've never had a Giza like that before. That doesn't count. It's like a, it's the burrito of Giza. It's so intense. So yeah. Okay. I will, I won't get to it. I love you desperately.

Malcolm Collins: All [00:50:00] right. My, my, my food slave. Yeah. Go cook. Get in the kitchen. Yeah.

Simone Collins: I will, I will do that.

Strap

Malcolm Collins: that baby on your pregnant back and then get in the kitchen and cook us dinner for your fricking five kids

Simone Collins: and hope she doesn't grab a knife and stab you. Yeah, I know. She's right there. She's within reach. I really need to move. Literally. Might try, like she does grab knives. She does. She grabs everything.

She grabs everything. Like I'll take off my, my, my dress at night and like magnets will fall out. Like all sorts of things that she's like shoved down my back. It's, this is my life now.

Malcolm Collins: You are beleaguered. You are beleaguered

Simone Collins: me. Alright. Done. I go. I love you. Alright, love you. Bye. I know I'm giving you more too many episodes to process and insisting on all these conversations, but I just really

Simone Collins (2): like talking with you.

Simone Collins: Don't take this away from me,

Malcolm Collins: forcing [00:51:00] you to God. It's so many. Yeah. Like tomorrow, Simone. I don't wanna do anymore episodes. We've got too much of a backlog at this point.

No. And you say, no, Malcolm, you must, you must do more episodes. And I was like, well, I won't prep any Then she's like, then I will.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, then fine. I will. No problem.

Malcolm Collins: You monster Simone. You won't let me be done. And then people are like, why don't you just put them on Patreon? I think I might use them on the main channel.

Simone Collins: No, no. We're we're gonna need to put a whole bunch more for members only on Patreon. They deserve it because they're the best.

Malcolm Collins: I would've thought that my days would be researching things to have interesting conversations with my wife. Gosh. I mean, we're, we're not far from turning this into our primary income source, and if we do that, that would be the craziest thing ever.

If I'm just paid to have interesting conversations with the person I enjoy talking to most in the world,

Simone Collins: and that would be the dream. No, I can't discount the fact that you put a lot of work into [00:52:00] editing these and I really appreciate it.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. That is a lot of work, actually.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But it's work I can do while reading romance, Manus.

That's that's what I've learned.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah. Honestly, that makes it work for you. You should a hundred percent do it.

Malcolm Collins: And now it makes me more excited to, to do it. I'm like, oh boy. Yeah, that's perfect. Good. I never thought I'd get into these, like these, these very, they're

Simone Collins: legit. Nah, I get it.

Malcolm Collins: I gotta, I get it.

They are like girls have a more discerning taste than I thought in, in terms of the stuff that they read. I was like, this is pretty, pretty good.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I haven't read one since. Love Advice from the Great Duke of hell, but like I, that was the last thing I've ever read that. I accidentally stayed up like two hours, you know, past my bedtime to, to read.

'cause it's just that good, you know. And, and laughed out loud who, who laughs out loud when they read anymore, but it's so

Malcolm Collins: funny. Yeah. Do do I need to give you some [00:53:00] of, some of mine to, to entrap you in?

Simone Collins: I don't know. I mean like your, your favorite genre is so specific, you know, and love advice from the great to Gopel you would,

Malcolm Collins: Love this genre.

'cause it's all about noble courtier doing like, being incredibly proficient and doing that, playing social games to try to marry the prince.

Simone Collins: Yeah. If it's attractive, competent people who are good at what they do, I probably will like. Yes, you will

Malcolm Collins: like it. Everyone watch even the characters who are explicitly in the script as ugly are incredibly attractive because that's specific.

Well, I mean, 'cause

Simone Collins: it's, yeah, it's fricking manga.

Malcolm Collins: Let me draw everything. Which is great.

Speaker 2: they?

Octavian Collins: No, they're not. I'm gonna keep you safe, okay? Okay. Walk with.

Well, those suitcase just stay close to eight. They're not gonna hurt you.[00:54:00]

I'm gonna keep you safe.

Titan Collins: My come me,

they're nice. They're nice.

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