The Interplay of Teaching and Self-Discovery in the Face of Mortality

Ep. 193 (Part 1 of 2) | Frank Ostaseski, Zen hospice pioneer, founder of the Metta Institute, and author of The Five Invitations, speaks with us about the profound wisdom and potential for transformation that is unleashed in the process of dying. “Suppose we imagine death as an unprecedented opportunity for transformation, he says, adding, “so why wait until we are dying?” In attending over a thousand people in hospice, Frank has often seen them experience a real sense of discovery in the dying process; there is a time of acceptance, a time of letting go, and then a deeper state of surrendering to something larger. The walls that prop up the self start tumbling down, Frank explains, and a larger connection emerges that is always there.

Frank would like to see the process of dying brought out of the closet—shared about, learned from, and not reduced to a medical event. It’s important to meet death with don’t-know mind and trust the dying process to teach each of us what we need to know, he explains. And some of what we can do right now to open ourselves to the wisdom of death is pay attention to how we end things, and to how we love. This far reaching discussion delves gently into the divine mystery of death and dying, touching on radical acceptance, transcending self, don’t-know mind, everyday compassion and boundless compassion, grief as an expression of love, and creating rituals to mark this passage and all passages. We are left feeling unexpectedly comforted and liberated at the same time. Recorded December 5, 2024.

“Dying is not predominantly a medical event, and we ought to stop treating it as if it were.”

Topics & Time Stamps – Part 1

• Introducing Frank Ostaseski, co-founder of the Zen Hospice Project & author of The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death Can Teach Us About Living Fully (00:35)
• What drew Frank into working with the dying? (01:51)
• John’s brush with death and how it affects him now (03:05)
• Does a contemplative practice help in a near-death experience? (08:10)
• Dying brings about certain conditions that help us transcend our small self (11:39)
• Facing death is an unprecedented opportunity for transformation—why wait until we are dying? (12:38)
• Acceptance is only the beginning, letting go has an important role, but there is a deeper dimension: surrender (14:23)
• Who are we after we are stripped of our identities? (20:43)
• Another way of understanding surrender: a deep relaxation rather than a giving up (22:19)
• We need to not project our standard of what dying should look like on people who are dying (30:30)
• Roger’s comments about how touched he was by Frank’s book, The Five Invitations (36:39)
• How painfully inadequate medical training is for helping the dying (38:28)
• How vulnerable doctors became during Covid, when they had to take on the role of family members (40:20)
• Time-of-death rituals are growing in medical centers around the world (42:17)
• Playing Brahms’ Lullaby throughout the hospital to mark a birth (46:18)

Resources & References – Part 1

• Frank Ostaseski’s website: https://frankostaseski.com/
• Frank Ostaseski, The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death Can Teach Us About Living Fully
• Metta Institute, founded by Frank Ostaseski, to provide innovative programs and trainings that foster mindful & compassionate end-of-life care
• Frank Ostaseski, founding director of the San Francisco Zen Hospice Project (now Zen Caregiving Project)
• Elizabeth Kübler-Ross and the five stages of grief, On Death and Dying
• Neptune Society
• Rachel Naomi Remen, Kitchen Table Wisdom & My Grandfather’s Blessings
• Johannes Brahms, Lullaby (YouTube video)

---

Frank Ostaseski is an internationally respected Buddhist teacher, visionary co-founder of the Zen Hospice Project, and founder of the Metta Institute. He has lectured at Harvard Medical School, the Mayo Clinic, leading corporations like Google and Apple Inc., and teaches at major spiritual centers around the globe. Frank is the 2018 recipient of the prestigious Humanities Award from the American Academy of Hospice and Palliative Medicine.

Frank has accompanied over 1,000 people through the dying process and trained thousands of healthcare clinicians and family caregivers around the world. His groundbreaking work has been featured on the Bill Moyers PBS series On Our Own Terms, highlighted on The Oprah Winfrey Show, and honored by H.H. the Dalai Lama. He is the author of The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death Can Teach Us About Living Fully.

---

Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell