Navigating Narrative Complexities

In this conversation, Nishant interviews Kathy Keating, Etienne de Bruin, and Scott Graves, co-authors of LIQUID: How CEOs and CTOs Unlock Flow and Momentum in Complex Systems. They discuss how the idea for the book was born, the challenges of co-authoring as three CTOs, and how they shaped the narrative through the fictional characters Alice (CEO) and Theo (CTO). The authors share how their distinct voices and strengths fused together: Scott’s deep knowledge of complex adaptive systems, Kathy’s operational lens, and Etienne’s ability to simplify and communicate concepts. Together, they created a framework that blends philosophy, practice, and story.

The conversation highlights the importance of seeing organizations as complex adaptive systems and the risks of companies becoming either “boiling” (chaotic) or “frozen” (rigid). The authors emphasize that true leadership comes from navigating toward liquidity, the state where flow and adaptability are preserved. They reflect on the critical role of CEO-CTO partnership, the necessity of boundaries, and the difficulty of shifting culture once it stagnates. They also explore why the timing of LIQUID is especially relevant today. As technology accelerates, craft alone is not enough. Leaders must become sense-makers and problem-solvers at the systems level.

About the Book

LIQUID takes readers inside the hidden systems that drive every organization. Using the fictional journey of Alice, a founder-CEO, and Theo, her engineer-turned-CTO, the book shows how teams often slide into boiling chaos or frozen rigidity without realizing it. By illustrating the patterns of complexity through story, the authors make abstract concepts tangible and immediately useful.

At its core, LIQUID argues that the most important role of the CTO is not simply delivering technology but stewarding the entire system so that people and processes remain in flow. The book introduces accessible frameworks, practical language, and vivid scenarios that help leaders spot when their organizations are shifting out of balance and how to guide them back to a liquid state.

Whether you are a CEO, CTO, or executive navigating rapid change, LIQUID is a blueprint for unlocking resilience, adaptability, and momentum in your company. It bridges systems thinking with real-world leadership and equips you to see and influence the invisible dynamics that make or break technology organizations.

Time Stamps

00:00: Introduction: Why LIQUID matters now02:00: Behind the authors: creativity, systems, and personal lenses07:00: Discovering each other’s strengths during the writing process13:00: Pivoting the book: from frameworks to storytelling17:00: The origin story: from CTO failures to systemic insights23:00: Defining the role of the CTO in complex systems28:00: Why now: AI, accelerated change, and systems thinking33:00: The 7CTOs connection and levels of complexity40:00: Why Alice and Theo: storytelling as a teaching tool46:00: Subjective perspectives in complex systems52:00: The hidden world of complexity and CTO boundaries59:00: CEOs and CTOs as co-sensemakers1:04:00: Simple versus complex language in leadership communication1:12:00: Culture as the hardest complexity to shift1:20:00: Coaching example: boiling versus frozen organizations1:28:00: The CEO’s challenge: orchestrating boundaries1:31:00: Partnership, empathy, and trust at the executive level1:33:00: If LIQUID had a soundtrack

LIQUID: LinkedIn / Website

Contact Nishant: LinkedInContact Etienne: Website / YouTube / LinkedIn / X / Instagram / The CTO Podcast WebsiteContact Kathy: Website /LinkedInContact Scott: Website / LinkedIn

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