This conversation between Peter Clarke and Naum Milyavskiy covers the recent debate between Jordan Peterson and Richard Dawkins that was moderated by Alex O'Connor.

Naum argues that Peterson's symbolic approach to the world has great value, especially for artists. Dawkins might be technically correct, but his analysis is not complete if he ignores the powerful role that stories play in our lives. Peter is more sympathetic to Dawkins' view, but also agrees that Peterson is not, at the very least, totally full of BS.

In the second half of the episode, Peter and Naum discuss a recent article by Katherine Dee in which she argues that culture is not stuck because new forms of art are developing online: The Internet-Personality-as-Art, TikTok sketch comedy, etc. Peter attempts to argue that these new forms of art aren't really art, or aren't comparable to novels, records, etc. Naum takes the other side, arguing that it's never a good idea to gatekeep on what should be considered art.

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