In this episode, Jimmy responds to some arguments raised by Protestant apologist Gavin Ortlund, primarily concerning the papacy. Gavin claims that there was no bishop of Rome (pope) until well into the second century and that—even if we grant that Peter was the first pope—so much hangs on the idea that there are later popes that, if this were true, it needs to be taught in the New Testament. How can one respond to these claims? What does the historical evidence show? And does Gavin’s own system meet the test he is proposing?