So other than these fantastic books, like I also I've been at your trainings. I've heard your trainings. I've posted some of your trainings around PDA, around autism and girls. There's, I know there's a podcast you're on that is like on viral where you walk through the DSM criteria for girls. So you're well known in this field as an expert on autism. So you've been on our podcast today is a little bit different because we asked you to come on to speak from your personal experience as an ADHD. I think it's so interesting here. You are at the forefront, I would say, of the clinical research around autism. And you're an ADHD, which you talk less about I haven't heard you talk about it here and there, but I haven't heard you talk about it in depth. So first, I'm just curious, what is it like to be coming onto a podcast where you're it's not like asked the expert. It's let's talk to Donna the ADHD or yeah, it's a little bit nerve wracking, you know, it's to do, you know, something more personal. But I ask people to tell me their personal stuff all day every day. So turn about is fair play, I guess. And I think one of the reasons I'm drawn to, you know, studying and working with and writing about and talking about autistic people, because what resonates with me is I was misunderstood for so many years, you know, I'm 58 years old. And so I had no hope of being diagnosed as an ADHD or when I was a kid. As also, you know, a girl who, you know, found school to be relatively easy. I messed up a lot, didn't get the best grades and all that, but it wasn't super effortful for me. And so I had no hope of being identified. I got identified and diagnosed when I was in my, I think mid to late 30s. And so I understand, to some extent, at least what it's like to be misunderstood and then to internalize all the shame and blame and to, you know, lean yourself and be really hard on yourself. And then to have that experience of somebody seeing you and saying, actually, this is what's been going on and how unbelievably life changing that can be. Yeah. So so liberating, so liberating. And this, this is something I think Patrick and I have talked about some, but I'd be curious what some of your internalized labels were, I think different and both shame based. But I think some of my most like just aggressively negative labels I put out myself is actually more from my ADHD than my autism. Do you feel comfortable sharing what were some of the internalized narratives that came on mind for you having been undiagnosed? Sure. Sure. I definitely, when I was younger, like in high school and college lazy, I knew I was smart. I knew I was capable of, you know, advancing in my academic career. And yet, you know, I avoided hard work. I couldn't sustain attention or effort sometimes. And so definitely, I thought of myself as lazy. And now I realize I'm absolutely anything but lazy. Right. Literally just came out with two books somewhere. Yeah. So that's been, that's been a big change. But that was, you know, the first half of my life, I definitely thought of myself as lazy. One that I'm still really struggling with is sensitive. I grew up with people constantly saying, you're so sensitive. You're so sensitive in a negative way. And I definitely internalize that as something incredibly negative. And now, I definitely still struggle with it. And there are many times I wish I was less sensitive and I get mad at myself for having such big emotional reactions. Yeah. But at least I understand it's not a characterological problem. This is my wiring. And that gives me a fighting chance of not, you know, blaming myself at the end of the day. I love how you word that, not a character logical. It's my wiring. Okay. So this is going to kind of trail us somewhere. One, and maybe this I'm curious what you mean by sensitivity, because I know like emotional regulation is harder. One more ADHDers. But also, I'm thinking about like HSP, highly sensitive person kind of phenotype. Something I see a lot in the autistic community right now are folks saying, and I still, I used to say this to folks saying the HSP is just a repackaging of autistic traits. I backed off that because I'm now seeing like one of my kids as an ADHD or who also would be considered HSP. I'm curious like, does the HSP that highly sensitive person is, is that part of what you want by sensitive? Does that fit your

experience? I

know, I made that book so long ago. It's hard for me to really. Yeah, I could say I'll sort of make a differentiation. I think my sensitivity, a lot of it, I would say most of it is about me feeling judged or criticized easily. Okay. So like rejection sensitivity, emotional regulation, sensitivity. Okay. No, that's what I was very specific to that, as opposed to a more general, like I just finished a parent interview this morning about their daughter who, you know, I don't know yet, but I suspect she's autistic. And my gosh, this poor girl is hypersensitive to everything, just everything. It's throwing out a used crayon. She feels really badly for the crayon, but like, you know, it's so generalized for sensitivity and, and, you know, sensory stuff and all of that. I don't experience that level of very generalized sensitivity for me. It's that specific sort of RSD kind of thing. I love how you can put words around this stuff. Okay. So sensory, that's a big overlap. Is that, but I like how again, you're, and I, I see like another conversations I've had with you. It's the globalness of some of those things that distinguish like autism from ADHD. But what, yeah, what is your kind of sensory experience of the world? Yeah. So I think my perspective is that ADHDers and autistic people, one area of overlap with sensory stuff is hyper-responsivity to, you know, all kinds of things, you know, noises, lights, whatever. And I have a little bit of that. It's just a little, though it doesn't majorly affect my life. I put on clothes that feel comfortable to me that they may or may not look great, but comfort is the most important thing. If I have to wear something uncomfortable, though, it's not the hugest deal in the world. So I would call it a minor hypersensitivity. So as opposed to one of, well, I won't get into that story. Never mind. I think that that sort of hyper-responsivity is pretty typical in a lot of ADHDers. What I don't see a lot in ADHDers, but I see more in autistic people is hypo-responsivity being less responsive to internal or external sensations. And I don't see a lot of atypical sensory craving. Sometimes sensation-seeking, if you have hyperactivity and pulsivity, but not atypical sensory craving, like licking objects or smelling objects. It's just not typical. I love that. Okay. So, and this is more a question for clinical, Dr. Henderson. I've often thought hypo-responsivity and sensory-seeking kind of went together. Like if someone was hypo, then they might be sensory-seeking because they're looking for that additional input. But am I kind of conflating ideas there? I mean, I think they can go together, but I think of them as separate things. And when I think of hypo-responsivity, I think of inter-aception more than any other sensory system, really, and not perceiving or contextualizing or understanding or responding to your internal sensations as much. So like with inter-aception, you have pretty accurate understanding of what's happening inside your body. Me? I think so. I mean, it's never when I've learned about it. It never resonated with me. Oh my God. That explains it now. My son, who is autistic, he's 22 years old, he has really, really, really low inter-aceptive awareness. And he just, and it's so important, I think, for clinicians, for everybody to understand this, because I think people call it denial if they don't understand the physiological basis. Absolutely. And I remember once he was in therapy with someone for he has a really bad needle phobia. And this became a crisis when he needed the COVID vaccine, of course. And so he was in therapy for that. And she was doing hierarchy. And she had him watch a video of somebody getting a shot. And he literally scooted his chair back. He gasped. He put his hand to his mouth. And she stopped the video and said, so you're feeling anxious. And he said, no, I'm not. And I think a therapist could mistakenly call that denial, which is a psychological chance mechanism. But no, he genuinely did not realize he was anxious. And that's really global for him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have so many thoughts, but Patrick, I've been, I've been hogging the conversations.