The universe, points out economist Noah Smith, is always trying to kill us, whether through asteroids hurtling through space or our every-few-hours hunger pains. Why, then, should we expect anything but a gravitational pull toward poverty? Listen as Smith explains to EconTalk's Russ Roberts why he believes that poverty will always be our "elemental foe," and how what he calls "industrial modernity" is key to keeping poverty at bay. They also discuss Smith's impatience with the "degrowth movement," which he thinks jeopardizes our gains in the fight against the elemental foe.