Trump has clear disdain for NATO – but could he really pull the US out of the alliance? And what would be its prospects without American support?

In the current geopolitical climate, the annual meeting this week of European military, security and political experts – the Munich Security Conference 2025 – has a special urgency. Just how far is the Trump administration truly in or out on European defence? And what are the prospects for NATO in the case of a transatlantic rift in the alliance?

Gavin Esler talks to Camille Grand, distinguished policy fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations and former Assistant Secretary General for defence investment at NATO.

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Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production.

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