The russians are creating a sort of fake to taletarian. They may think that just doing that kind of veneer of propaganda will be enough to scare people. It may be that they don't want to motivate people to do anything, you know, they just want them to shut up. And these people are just stay home and are silent because, particularly as if economic sanctions do kick in, they'll want that. So in my view, this is a problem that the russians themselves haven't solved,. You know, now that they ar abandoning this kind of managed democracy... What replaces it? And what's the point of it?
Anne Applebaum is a staff writer for The Atlantic and a Senior Fellow of the Agora Institute at Johns Hopkins University. In her books - most notably Red Famine: Stalin’s War on Ukraine and Iron Curtain: The Crushing of Eastern Europe she has chronicled the terrible human costs of past attempts by Russia to dominate countries in Central and Eastern Europe.
In this week’s conversation, Anne Applebaum and Yascha Mounk discuss the developing ideology of "Putinism," what it would look like for Ukraine to win the war, and how democracies can defend their values in a world of resurgent authoritarianism.
This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.
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