What I

love is the first thing you said there, which was, she had to ask herself, what is the outcome I actually want? Right. And that may seem like quite an extreme situation, but let's just bring that back to a situation that most people can relate to. Let's say in marriage, a romantic partnership, right? Where there is a disagreement or there is conflict. So much of the time, we're trying to prove that we're right. That our point of view is the correct one. As you say, if the outcome you deserve from a conversation is for the person to become more like you, it should be self-evident that the conversation is doomed. That's kind of most marital conflicts, right? But if you take a step back and say, wait a minute, what's the outcome here? Well, most of the time, I hope the outcome is I want a harmonious relationship with my partner. Being right doesn't necessarily fit with that solution. So I think that's the first thing that was quite interesting to me to hear about her rationale. There was a section when you were writing about D.A. Khan where she said, I believe, that both sides must possess what the other one needs. And I

found

that so powerful. I thought, wow, that's really interesting. And I brought it out. I thought in every conversation, in any deep, meaningful conversation, it's that important that we have to acknowledge on one level that both of us have got something that the other one needs. I mean, maybe speaks to that a little bit in a half.

Yeah, but also, I think Mary Macalese's point was that you're brought up with a certain narrative of history, which makes you believe that you're right, right? And to go to the point that D.A. Khan made about needs is to see the human in the person. She had to see the human in the neo-Nazi.

Now,

just let's let that sentence settle. That's

not

an easy thing to do. And what did they need? They ultimately needed to be seen. They needed to be valued, and they weren't. They were from poverty, abuse, trauma, criminality. And they were looking for someone to blame. She needed for there to be less neo-Nazis, but she also needed to, and this is really important, she needed to overcome her own prejudices going into that conversation. And that's really hard. If you're going into difficult conversations, you have to be very aware of what you bring, the baggage, the prejudice, the bias, the bigotry into a conversation. You have to be aware of that, because until you've analyzed that, until you've come to terms with it, until you've potentially erased it, again, you're probably not going to get a meaningful conversation. So she's sitting there going, well, you're an artsy, but she didn't go, you're an artsy. Why are you an artsy? Don't be an artsy. She said, well, where did you grow up? What was your mum like? What was your dad like? What was the house you grew up in? No one had ever asked them questions like that before. No one had made them feel valued like that before. How difficult is it to look at someone who hates you and actually say, beyond the skinhead haircut, beyond the swastika tattoo, I need to find human in you. Now, a lot of people listening will say, I'm not doing that. In fact, I was on a panel with someone once saying, I'm never going to do that. And I said to that person, well, we're never going to evolve then. Do you want less neo-narcers in the world? Well, yeah. Well, how are you going to do it? You're going to just march around Trafalgar Square in London with a banner on? Brilliant. Fine. That'll make you feel good. It's quite performative. But dear, calm went and spoke to these people. And in every place on earth, there are those who will reach out to extremists, to try and bring them back from the brink, not because you're trying to impose your own opinion on them. But what you are trying to do is to show another way that there is a different path and that the reason you are why you are may not be for the reasons you've been told.

It's about curiosity. It's about compassion. It's about understanding. Why does that person think and feel and act the way in which they do? It's very different from this judgmental society that we now have, particularly exacerbated by social media, I would say, where we judge everyone for one small thing that they say, take it out of context, make it the whole of them. And I know I talk about this phrase a lot on this show because it's been so transformative that if I was that other person, I'd be doing exactly the same as them. That phrase really has changed my life because it's literally if I was that person with their childhood, with their parents, with their upbringing, with their friends, with their experiences, I would almost certainly be thinking and acting in the way that they do. Now, just because you're understanding it doesn't mean you're condoning the behavior and you write about that in your book. But if you don't understand, you're never going to make any progress. For me now, and I'm interested to know if you had any similar conversations like this during your career, in the early days of this podcast, I spoke to a chap called John McAvoy. I don't know if you're aware of John, but John maybe 10 years ago or so was one of Britain's most wanted men. He was locked up with two life sentences having committed on robbery. But John was here in my house and we had this gorgeous conversation. And he told me about his life and his upbringing. And he didn't have a father figure. Or the male role models he had in his life were criminals. They had their own code of conduct. They treated women really well. They were very respectful, but it was them against the system. So they had their own code of conduct. And actually, I think it was his uncle would pick him up. Maybe when he was 12, 13, and he always saw his fancy shoes and his flash car, and he was dressed well, and he would treat people well, he'd get a lot of respect. And I remember, I spoke to him for two thousand, forty minutes, right? And it's still one of the most downloaded episodes on this on the show ever. And I remember the end of that conversation when John left and I spoke to my wife, I said, you know what, Vedd? If I had John's upbringing, I reckon I'd be locked up right now for armed robbery. I genuinely felt that. And the reason I share that is because that's the story with everyone. As Dia Khan, you just mentioned with these neo-Nazis, I mean, there is a reason that they think the way that they think. And you're not going to make progress until you at least understand that you don't have to like it, you don't have to condone it, but you sort of need to understand it. Were there any conversations for you apart from the people you've shared in your book that really help you shift your perspective on things like this?

So there's two things. One is an extraordinary conversation, which you can see on YouTube of me and Sibili Connolly. And one of the things that Sibili Connolly said was that world famous comedian, film star, huge, right? His father was incredibly abusive, right? Violent man. And as part of the therapy that he did in LA, he sat opposite an empty chair. And he imagined that his father was sitting in that chair. And he asked him, why did you do these things to me? Why did you act like that? Then he went and sat in that empty chair and answered those questions, imagining he was his father. And he said that when he did that, it was like a sack of rocks was lifted from his shoulders. I mean, what's more powerful than that? Yeah. That you can live in someone else's experience, someone who has given you so much pain, and you sit there and you try and imagine what it was like. And conversation, especially active listening, is trying to understand, isn't it? Because that connection that you and I have today, that

thought that how

difficult it is for you to say I miss you is kind of powerful, right? It's a powerful thing, right? And you telling me about how a lack of conversation could be a reason for why we medicate in other ways through alcohol, bad food, etc. It's super powerful for me. And you saying you felt loneliness is powerful to me because that's definitely something that I feel too. And you can be, interestingly, I interviewed the actor Cynthia Arevo and she said, you know, she's been lonely, in packed rooms, right? Yeah. Together alone.

Together alone. Yeah. Active listening. There's a Chinese symbol for listening in the book, which is super, super powerful. So can you first of all say what it is? Yeah.

What it means, basically. So this is great. So this comes from John Sutherland, right? Who is one of the most beautiful human beings you'll ever meet, right? Former chief superintendent at the Metropolitan Police. He's written several books, fiction, nonfiction. He's a truly lovely man. But he was a crisis negotiator. So hostage taking very strange scenarios that you would have to be involved in. And he was the guy that you would call up. He was also the guy that taught at Hendon, which is the London Metropolitan Police's big training headquarters in North London. And he showed me when I interviewed him for this book, and that specifically this chapter in extreme is this Chinese symbol, Ting. And this is a pictogram. And there are four sections. And essentially, what active listening breaks down as is firstly, it's the ears to listen, right? So far, so obvious, is then the eyes to see. Again, nonverbal, so obvious. But then it gets super interesting. Then it gets into the territory of what is active listening. The Chinese believe that you're not listening unless you engage with your mind, but

also with

your heart. So this symbol, the four sections of it, are your eyes, your ears, your heart, and your mind.

You've listened with all four. All four. But

just think about listening with your heart. If I say that, I'm listening with my heart. What do you think that means?