Navigating the Challenges of Writing

In this Marketing Over Coffee:

Learn about Social Media Strategy, Channel Selection and more!

Direct Link to File

Brought to you by our sponsors: The Generative AI for Marketing Course from Trust Insights

The book: Organic Social Media – How To Build Flourishing Online Communities from Kogan Page

Television journalism inspired by Connie Chung

Left turn to State Farm

To Boston and Harvard Kennedy School

Transitioning to MIT

Special Discount on the newest Generative AI for Marketing Course! Hands on excercises to put AI to work for you! USE CODE MOC now!

Enter the Acquisition Editor

Where should social fall on the org chart?

Do you give up on X?

BeReal branded channels

Newsletters: In Case You Missed It by Lia Haberman and Link in Bio Rachel Karten, Confessions of a Higher Ed Social Media Manager

Join John, Chris and Katie on threads, or on LinkedIn: Chris, John, and Katie

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Transcript

John Wall – 00:14

Good morning and welcome to Marketing Over Coffee. I’m John Wall. Today our guest is Jenny Li Fowler. She has her new book, Organic Social Media: How to Build Flourishing Online Communities. She’s the director of Social Media strategy at MIT and has done all kinds of stuff in social. I’m excited to get the latest, both the book and everything else going on. Jenny, thanks for joining us.

Jenny Li Fowler – 00:35

Thanks for having me, John. It’s so nice to be here.

John Wall – 00:38

I’m way on the other side of the state now, but have worked in Boston forever, so we love having somebody who knows. And you have done both MIT and you were over at Harvard Kennedy School too. So you’ve been at both the big schools on the river. Let’s go back to the start, though. I noticed you had your career starting as a journalist and you were doing some TV stuff. How did that happen?

Jenny Li Fowler – 00:58

You know, growing up in high school, that’s what I wanted to be. I wanted to be a TV reporter. I’m going to seriously date myself, but Connie Chung, do you remember her?

John Wall – 01:09

Oh, yeah, she was huge. Yeah.

Jenny Li Fowler – 01:11

Yeah, and she was, of course, you know, Asian American woman, very successful in that field and representation is huge. So when I saw her, I just said, “That’s what I want to do,” and that was my goal. And you know, I just tell people I got to do my dream job growing up and now the rest is just gravy. I took a lot of left turns, but it’s been good. Yeah, right.

John Wall – 01:36

Okay, and so then the next big one I saw, you had time at State Farm. I mean, the most respected insurance company in the country. How did you get twisted over there?

Jenny Li Fowler – 01:46

So, you know, that was my first left turn that I made. I had no skills in anything else but maybe writing and giving reports, but the industry was changing, I was changing, my prior were changing. I was fortunate enough that State Farm had a headquarters in the market where I was a reporter, and it just so happened that they wanted to launch an internal newscast and needed someone to anchor and produce it. So it was just like this match made in heaven. And the instant they knew me, I had some credibility with the company already.

Jenny Li Fowler – 02:21

And then from there I just, you know, was able to do that and pick up some other skills along the way that actually made me a perfect fit for my next hop, which was over to here in the Boston area with Harvard Kennedy School, which is the Graduate School of Government. That was just huge. The universe laying out these steps for you. So, yeah, it was great fortune. I was really lucky to be able to do that.

John Wall – 02:51

Yeah, it is amazing, isn’t it, how those things work sometimes? Because when I think of everything involved—insurance, I actually worked insurance for a number of years—and yeah, to have something that’s like totally made for you, I mean, you were the perfect person for that job. And it was in the market, it was just paved, like you said, for you to end up over there. So then what was the next step, though? So what got you over to Harvard and Kennedy? Were you looking for a change or was it, you know, what happened there?

Jenny Li Fowler – 03:17

Well, I was able to just acquire skills while at State Farm that had to do with like editorial work and content strategy and, you know, blogging and, you know, more on the editorial side. And so my husband and I were, you know, looking to go to a bigger metropolitan area and make the move before you start a family because it’s hard to do vice versa. So we just said, whoever gets the job first, the other spouse will go. And honestly, we could have thrown a dart at a map, and my only requirement was that it was a big enough city to have a major league baseball team because, you know, that’s a certain size city, right? The certain, the universe said, “Oh, you want a major league baseball team, we’re going to send you to Boston.”

Jenny Li Fowler – 04:09

And again, the job description, it just felt right and it ended up being a good fit. And so I ended up doing editorial, web editorial work and then also managing Harvard Kennedy School social media channels from Harvard Kennedy.

John Wall – 04:26

Did you get hired away to MIT or what happened there? I mean, those are—I mean, they’re not really rivals. People would think of them as rivals, they’re just very different.

Jenny Li Fowler – 04:33

But, well, we’re peers, you know, and actually there’s a lot of interchange between the two. Like there’s a lot of, you know, student collaborations and collegiate collaborations. The talent pool is really similar if you think about it. But you know, I had it in my head, gosh, you know, social media is taking up more and more of my work and my daily responsibilities, which it has a habit of doing, and I really enjoyed it. And so I thought if I make this a full-time job, I would love to make that my next step. And as I was starting to feel those things and think those things, this position opened up at MIT and a friend of mine said, “This is your position, you have to apply. This is perfect for you.”

Jenny Li Fowler – 05:24

And so it was one of those things where I—I wasn’t looking to move, but I just felt like I had to do. I couldn’t not apply to this job because it was just the next thing that I was looking for. And so in, of course, for 48 hours, because I had to update everything I had. My resume was moldy old. It was so old, and my LinkedIn presence was old. Like, everything was old. And we had to just get everything up to speed. And I say “we,” because my husband really helped me. And so we had—we got everything up to speed—speed. And then I had to, like, get a portfolio together, and somehow we did it, and I interviewed, and can I say, it was—it was like, the best interview I’d ever had in my professional career.

Jenny Li Fowler – 06:12

And I just left feeling like, “These are my people.” Like, you know, I just felt if I don’t get this job, it’s not because of anything I did, you know, it’s—it’s just, you know,” and that was just the best feeling ever. And it ended up being a good fit as well.

John Wall – 06:28

That’s classic. I mean, we’re always joking on the show about how, you know, as the person who’s responsible for it during the day, you ignore it for your own personal life. Like, you said, your LinkedIn account is a mess and resident, like, because you don’t have the time for that. And so it’s funny that, yeah, the thing landed in your lap and you had to scramble to get that all together.

Jenny Li Fowler – 06:46

It was such a scramble, and it was also a lesson learned, too, in that now I try to update LinkedIn as I go so it wouldn’t be such a—a big lift if, you know, any—any opportunity were to come open. But again, I—I love my position. Not looking. Not looking to leave, but—

John Wall – 07:08

Yeah, that’s a—yeah, so that’s a Boston local, Mark Wahlberg there. It’s far easier to stay in shape than get in shape when it comes to your LinkedIn profile. Just like everything else you get to do, set those quarterly or at least annual marks so you can get that straight. That will save you some of the mad dash, but not all of it. You have this book. What happened with this? At some point, did you say, “Hey, you know, it’s time for me to write a book?” Or did a publisher come to you and tell you they’ve got a perfect idea for you that you have to get ready for?

Jenny Li Fowler – 07:39

So you’re going to laugh at me? You’re going to make fun of me? I didn’t know that these lovely people called acquisition editors existed, but one ended up emailing me and—and said, “Have you ever thought of writing a book?” And I told my husband, again, I said, “Someone emailed me and asked me, you know, saying that they’re from a publishing company.” And this—I said, “This has got to be a joke, right? This is a joke. Like, they’re going to tell me, ‘Oh, if you give us 10,000 dollars, we’ll publish your book.'” But after several conversations and several conversations with my friends who are authors, it turned out not to be a joke. It was a very legitimate, you know, like, exceptional publishing company. And I know, I guess I’ve been fortunate where, like, the universe just points its finger at it and says “this.”

Jenny Li Fowler – 08:38

You know, this is time for you to do. You know, when thinking of it just—it just again felt right. It felt like, you know, there wasn’t a voice in the organic social media space. There was sort of this gap in that space. And so there was a need for it. And also I was keenly aware, again, like, representation is very important to me. And so if I thought, if I say no, who is this going to go to? And so, you know, I want young women who are in this position to know that we have something to say. And there are women of color doing these positions and hopefully doing them well. And so, yeah, I kind of couldn’t say no. It was like, had to buck up and roll up my sleeves and start writing.

John Wall – 09:28

Yeah, and grind it out, right? And that’s—every author just knows it’s—so was it one of those things? Was it nights and weekends, or did you—were you able to make it part of your day job?

Jenny Li Fowler – 09:37

How did that work nights and weekends? I didn’t realize how—I knew it would be a mental challenge, but I didn’t realize how hard, like, how isolating it is and how emotionally and really physically hard it is. Your body sitting in the same position for 12 to 14 hours a day. My arms kind of froze in this position, and it took me some physical therapy to get that worked out. Yeah, it’s true. It’s not easy.

John Wall – 10:09

Yeah, isn’t it? That’s funny because—yeah, because you were doing live reporting and journalist stuff, which is more short format and—yeah, that whole sitting down and grinding out, you know, 60,000 words is a little bit different thing. I mean, it’s the same skills are all there, but, yeah, it’s a little—it’s kind of like running a marathon instead of a sprint, you know, it’s a different thing.

Jenny Li Fowler – 10:27

It’s totally different. You know, my editor, like, one suggestion she would always give me is that, you know, “Jenny, I know that you’re trained to write short pithy sentences,” but she’s like, “You know, you can be long-winded, you know, or try to be long-winded.” And you know, because for me it wouldn’t be long, it would be like normal length. And so she, you know, I had to get—I had to unlearn some things of how I knew how to write. And yeah, it was trial by fire really.

John Wall – 11:02

Yeah, yeah, just start grinding out. Well, and so talk to us about—so obviously this book is for, you know, the person in the organization that needs to get this done and be responsible for social media and everything that happens. But you know, where do companies get this wrong and what kind of stuff are you pointing out in the book here that they need to get on the right track?

Jenny Li Fowler – 11:19

Sometimes I think organizations or leadership teams and organizations have a tendency to forget about social media or not take it as seriously as they should or I feel they should. So there really is no thought or a lot of thought or if it’s not always brought into the strategy. And so there’s a social media manager who sort of left trying to figure it out by themselves. And a lot of times a social media manager is an entry-level position. So it’s a very big job. You know, it’s a very big job but for a person who might not have the years of professional—the professional years or the right guidance. So I’m really hoping that this book helps that person.

Jenny Li Fowler – 12:06

But you know, if this book also makes it into the hands of the supervisors and the leadership teams, I think there’s some lessons to be learned there as well.

John Wall – 12:16

Yeah, and how about as far as, you know, where in the org chart should it sit? Do you have any opinions on that or stuff that you’ve seen work? Like, like you said, it’s become in the marketing industry kind of a joke that yeah, you have this situation where somebody is hired and the next day they’re in charge of social media, you know, and they have no experience or understanding and they’re the ones tweeting to five million people or whatever. Like it can be a mess. So is there anything as far as the strategy, setting up your strategy right for success from the beginning?

Jenny Li Fowler – 12:45

I mean when you think of org charts, I think it should definitely be a director-level position. So within traditional organizations you have your vice president of digital or vice president of communications and then you have your director of media, maybe you have a director of internal comms. You need a director of social media. It should be a senior-level position and from there they should have their own team, right? There should be, as your director helps with crisis and strategy, then your manager helps with the everyday management of the channels themselves, and then you might have like specialists and analysts underneath there, which ideally I think is the direction we should go to. Like social media, there’s so many different platforms and there’s so many different uses and it’s becoming highly specialized.

Jenny Li Fowler – 13:37

So, you know, we should have like a vertical video specialist, we should have a live stream specialist. Things are starting to get gamified and there’s a whole opportunity—lots of opportunities in the gaming industry. We should have a gaming specialist, copy editor, graphic designer. I think those are all foundational elements for good social media management.

John Wall – 14:02

The book lays out a bunch of stuff as far as tracking and making it, setting up goals properly, getting anything in order. But I wanted to talk to you to get your take on where we’re at right now with the state of channels, because you should mention there’s a lot of stuff going on as far as video gamification and even start with higher ed, like what’s going on with channels today that you guys are looking at? And the one that is burning me up is, you know, are you leaving X, formerly Twitter, behind? Like, what’s going on with that?

Jenny Li Fowler – 14:28

Well, you know, everyone keeps on asking, all the social media managers keep on asking each other, “Are you—have you left? Are you leaving? Are you deciding to leave or when?” But the truth is we’re still seeing—we’re all still seeing a lot of engagement in that space. So, you know, if you have thousands of followers or millions of followers, you can’t—I don’t think you can just abandon those followers, especially if you’ve built a community and they’re engaged on that community. It’s true the platform itself has evolved and we expect we’re experiencing some changes on it, but for the most part, again, if your audience is meaningfully engaging with you, they’re finding value in what you’re posting, it’s hard to just leave. Also, a lot of social media managers keep on asking each other, “What are you replacing it with?”

Jenny Li Fowler – 15:26

But I—I just don’t think that’s the right question. There is no replacing one channel with another. It’s not like—it’s not like you’re plumbing and there’s a part that’s broken and you literally replace that one part and the whole thing functions the same. There—you can’t take over. You can’t transition or move one entire audience to another platform. They all have to be willing to come over and a lot of them won’t necessarily. Your audience won’t be the same. Your engagement might not be the same because it’s, you know, the algorithm is different for some reason. So there’s no replacing of a social media, you know, platform one with another. It’s just which one do you want to manage? And do you have an audience in one versus do you have to start from scratch and build an audience in another?

John Wall – 16:18

Yeah, that’s starting from scratch. Right. That’s the key thing too, because way I’ve thought about it lately is it’s almost like neighborhoods and storefronts. You know, it’s like just because a certain part of the country is having economic difficulty and it’s getting ugly and maybe even dangerous, that doesn’t mean you close the store if you’re doing a ton of business and you have a bunch of customers. So it’s, you know, it works. But yeah, that is—it’s interesting. I like that idea of—yeah, from the C-level, it’s just like, well, just swap it out with something else, put a new widget in there, you know, and that’s not how it works. You don’t just switch it out. But how about interesting Threads? Is that on your radar? Have you guys been playing with that? What are you thinking about how that’s going?

Jenny Li Fowler – 16:57

Yes. So we are active in Threads and we are seeing a lot more higher ed institutions and brands become active in Threads and we’re seeing a lot of engagement. Our audience seems to be hungry for the type of content that our institution puts out, what we’re known for. There’s definitely an audience in Threads for it. So we are in that platform for good. It’s like one of our primary platforms now. I don’t see us leaving it. And it does seem like there are more and more people that are in the same boat as we are when it comes to Threads.

John Wall – 17:35

All right, that sounds good. We’re going to talk more about stuff on the horizon, but before we do, we just have to take a second. I want to thank Trust Insights for their support of Marketing Over Coffee. You can check out their Generative AI for marketers course available now. You can use the code MOC to get a discount off that and we thank them for their support of the show. So you mentioned video too. So what’s going on there as far as short-form video? Has that spun up for you and TikTok and some of the other platforms. What’s going on there?

Jenny Li Fowler – 18:02

Yeah, 100%, like vertical videos just took off. I don’t—I don’t know if that—I could think of another thing to compare it with. It—it just became so popular so fast, so did TikTok. The way that users are using it as a search engine—a lot of people are. A lot of users are using TikTok as a search engine, so which makes it a primary area where users are getting—it’s—it’s really critical. And you know, I would say, you know, these platforms are meant to be consumed with vertical videos. You know, when people are trying to shoehorn 16×9 videos into the vertical video platforms, it—it’s just—that’s not working. You—you have to create content the way it was meant to be consumed in these platforms.

Jenny Li Fowler – 18:57

So if you haven’t made the switch to vertical videos or adopted vertical should. And—and I—I should also add that BeReal just added branded channels. So you’re going to start to see, you know, brands and institutions and organizations on—solely on BeReal as well. And so, you know, that’s another platform that I think that you’re going to see organizations move into. And it’s interesting because that’s entirely different. That’s totally different from any other platform we’re familiar with now. So interesting to see how institutions embrace that platform.

John Wall – 19:39

That sounds good. And how about other stuff on the horizon for you then too? You have an interesting seat and that you’re watching this develop and things go. What things are you looking at as far as coming up in the next year or even longer term?

Jenny Li Fowler – 19:50

I do have an eye on BeReal right now, so you might see us maybe in the coming year be active in that space. A lot of us are talking about AI and I do feel that it is more important now to have an authentic human driving your social media channels. But I think the humans that are doing the work can be—can find a lot of benefit and assistance in using AI tools. And those who can incorporate it within their daily practices, I think will—it’ll be a huge benefit to them, but it’s a balance, right? And so those who do it really well, I think will succeed. I don’t know. For me personally, I just—I am enjoying the moment of having finished this book and I’m just really—I’m just kind of soaking it in.

Jenny Li Fowler – 20:52

It’s one of those life moments that you just want to take time and, you know, enjoy the moment and see what opportunities come my way.

John Wall – 21:01

That sounds great. Now, it’s not all work, obviously, all the time and writing, and especially now that you’re finished with the book itself, you have some free time. Anything else you can tell us about as far as other hobbies? You know, books, music, movie, anything you’ve consumed recently that you could suggest to the crowd?

Jenny Li Fowler – 21:16

Oh, sure. One of the favorite things that I like to read are actually newsletters. I think because social media moves so quickly, it’s more flexible. I think newsletters are so people can add to them and make them more real-time. In Case You Missed It or ICYMI by Leah Haberman is an excellent newsletter. Link in Bio by Rachel Karten is also an excellent newsletter. I just launched a podcast. It’s called Confessions of a Higher Ed Social Media Manager. I talk to people—I admire people that are doing great things in higher ed social media management that are really—they’re the people that are grinding it out every day within the space. So we just talk about actionable things, lessons learned, things that worked, things that didn’t work.

John Wall – 22:10

Oh, that’s perfect. Yeah, we’ll have a link to that in the show notes. We do have a lot of higher ed folks that we’ve actually worked with and done stuff in the past, so that’ll be great.

Jenny Li Fowler – 22:16

Oh great. Great.

John Wall – 22:17

The book is Organic Social Media: How to Build Flourishing Online Communities. It’s from Kogan Page. You can check it out. We’ll have links to that in the show notes. Go ahead and pick up a copy as soon as you can. But Jenny, thanks for joining us.

Jenny Li Fowler – 22:29

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed the conversation.

John Wall – 22:32

All right, thanks. That’ll do it for this week. So until next week, enjoy the coffee.

Jenny Li Fowler – 22:36

You’ve been listening to Marketing Over Coffee. Christopher Penn blogs at christopherspenn.com. Read more from John J. Wall at jw5150.com. The Marketing Over Coffee theme song is called Melo G by Funk Masters and you can find it at Musically from Mevio or follow the link in our show notes.

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