When I say science and nothing else, I certainly don't mean the science of today because I think overall, I think we are, we know very little. Most of the things that we're sure of now are going to look hilarious down the line. When I do an experiment, I'm still me. There's the experiment, whatever I've done. I've learned something. But ultimately, I include all of that in science with a capital S in terms of like a rational investigation of both first and third person aspects of our world. In order to really study consciousness, you will, you are part of the experiment. You will be altered by that experiment, right? Whatever is that

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