Melissa Perri is the founder of Product Institute, author of Escaping the Build Trap, and host of the Product Thinking Podcast. She has worked with startups, Fortune 50 companies, and everything in between to help them build better products and level up their product teams. In our conversation, we discuss:

• The history of the product owner role

• The differences between product owners and product managers

• How to transition from product owner to product manager

• The evolution of and problems with the SAFe framework

• How large non-tech companies can improve their product practices

• Much more

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Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-owners-melissa-perri

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Where to find Melissa Perri:

• X: https://twitter.com/lissijean

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissajeanperri/

• Website: https://melissaperri.com/

• Product Institute: https://productinstitute.com/

• Podcast: https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Melissa’s background

(02:12) The rise of the product owner role

(06:37) Understanding Agile and Scrum

(08:27) Challenges in Agile transformations

(10:41) The history of the product owner role

(13:58) The Scrum Guide

(15:43) Product owner responsibilities

(21:01) Adopting Scrum in organizations

(26:21) The origins and implementation of SAFe

(35:20) Why Melissa doesn’t recommend SAFe

(40:33) Advice for implementing a digital transformation

(49:12) An example of SAFe adoption

(51:27) The value of experienced product leaders

(56:53) Career paths for product owners

(01:04:14) Transitioning from product owner to product manager

(01:06:41) Be careful relying on certifications

(01:11:43) Evaluating existing product owners

(01:16:55) Final thoughts on Agile and product management

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Referenced:

• Escaping the Build Trap: How Effective Product Management Creates Real Value: https://www.amazon.com/Escaping-Build-Trap-Effective-Management/dp/149197379X

• Lean UX: https://leanuxnyc.co/

• Scrum: https://www.scrum.org/

• What is Extreme Programming? https://www.agilealliance.org/glossary/xp/

• Capital One: https://www.capitalone.com/

• The Agile Manifesto: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/manifesto

• Ken Schwaber on X: https://x.com/kschwaber

• Jeff Sutherland on X: https://x.com/jeffsutherland

• Kanban: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/kanban

• What is a kanban board?: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/kanban/boards

• Ron Jeffries’s website: https://www.ronjeffries.com/

• Jeff Patton on X: https://x.com/jeffpatton

• The Scrum Guide: https://www.scrum.org/resources/scrum-guide

• OpenSky: https://www.openskycc.com/

• SAFe: https://scaledagileframework.com/

• Dean Leffingwell on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deanleffingwell/

• Capital One scraps 1,100 tech positions: https://www.reuters.com/technology/capital-one-scraps-1100-tech-positions-source-2023-01-19/

• Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-management-theater-marty

• Marty Cagan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cagan/

• Jeff Gothelf on X: https://x.com/jboogie

• Shruti Patel on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shruti-patel-32bb573a/

• Product Thinking Podcast: Mastering Product Focus: Balancing Legacy and Innovation with Shruti Patel: https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/2024/9/25/episode-190-mastering-product-focus-balancing-legacy-and-innovation-with-shruti-patel

• Melissa Douros on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissadouros/

• Mind the Product: https://www.mindtheproduct.com/

• Athenahealth: https://www.athenahealth.com/

• McKinsey: https://www.mckinsey.com/

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.