So for us, we've always taken the approach,

I guess you can say, of just having our positioning set in place first because once we have that positioning, then that can filter and it can be a filter for your messaging, for your portfolio. And really it just does provide so much clarity

and so much,

I think, foundational pieces that you can build off upon for your messaging. And it really gives you that anchor. It's that point of reference, right? So instead of just writing messaging that, you know, writing messaging, I guess, for messaging's sake, it's writing messaging with the intention of, okay, this is going to point back to my positioning or reflect my positioning and support my positioning. And so it just helps bring clarity to the messaging that you're writing, which also I love too because, you know, it just helps to in a lot of ways, streamline things as well in your business because you don't have to feel like your second guessing or it gives you that that place and positioning gives you that anchor where you can have that foundation and be confident in the decisions that you're making in your business because you know they're going to point back and reflect, be reflective of your positioning.

Yes, absolutely. I feel like when I was working with my copywriter on kind of just this story, like brand story and some of those other pieces, like that's what we were doing. We were crafting Hello, June's positioning and none of that copy is external. That's not really my business is messaging. But in pursuing what makes Hello, June unique, like what makes Jen as a person unique from any other designer out there, we crafted our messaging kind of along the way, you know, so like the positioning definitely came first, but it was almost like we got this bonus tag line that came out it, but we got this bonus at I.G. bio, like all of these things just kind of materialize. I mean, we did a couple of exercises that you guys can take and do if you'd like. We did a values bank exercise where we pulled out values from just a really exhaustive list and then narrow them down and narrow them down. We did an exercise where we talked about words and phrases that we liked for Hello, June and words and phrases that we didn't like for Hello, June. And then we did an exercise about like, what does the Hello, June brand physically feel like? And we kind of came up with this idea of driving with the top down, warm sun on your face, wind in your hair. We played around with the word Hello, like it's the feeling of saying Hello to a stranger who doesn't feel like a stranger, they feel like a friend, like, you know, those types of things were like, I haven't really used that copy anywhere. I should I should use it on my website, actually, or in content, but like that, I don't know, they kind of like kind of morphed together a little bit, but it was the positioning that informed those words and phrases that then became my messaging. It was actually a really cool process.

Yeah, and it really is. And that's where right, like, take note of as you're developing your positioning, as you're researching it, take note of all that, because I agree, like it was very similar for us where we ended up getting so many messaging pieces out of our

exploration.

And a fun sign up to that I'll say is as you're going through your positioning, look at some of those words and start asking what that means for you. So, you know, a lot of people might say, okay, I want my clients to feel empowered. And that's such a great, strong word, but in a sense too, what does that mean for you specifically and what does that mean for your clients specifically? And that just basically can bring on a whole new trail of thoughts and research and a greater depth into, you know, clarity for your positioning, but also clarity for your messaging. So anyways, just a thought there. Yeah.

And I mean, it's the same way that we do and we're developing brand identities, right? Like, what clean means to me might not be what clean means to my client. I use the word clean because every client I feel like since the history of time has one of their planning to look clean. And so it's like, okay, well, let's explore more about what that word means to you. And of course, I mean, from a journalism background, I would have minored in English if I had, you know, gotten my butt up and done enough, you know, classes to like fill that minor. I don't know, I just I'm fascinated by the intersection of how words and design combine because any design process starts with a brief, a strategy, a creative direction, whatever it is you want to call it, however much or however little you do, you start with a conversation with your client, whether that's through a questionnaire or a call or both. And so I feel like it's similar here where you start by doing a big brain dump. You brainstorm with a team member with a friend with, you know, your copywriter and you kind of pull out, oh, wait, I like that phrase or, oh, I think that's really cool. It's like boiling everything down into the essence of who you are. And I feel like that is positioning and that is messaging as well.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay.

So let's talk about attracting high ticket clients with your premium positioning, which is I believe the title that you pitched us with when you, you know, wanted to become a guest on the podcast. Yeah. So intrigued. So I know that positioning relates to the type of client that comes your way and whether high ticket, high value, whatever that looks like for you guys, I would love to learn more about what you how you define premium positioning and kind of what that journey has looked like for you guys over time attracting higher ticket clients. Cause I think that's the question of the hour is where are the high ticket clients? Where are they hiding? Where can I find them? Yeah.

So it's the cool thing about positioning, right? Is that it really plays out in twofold scenarios, right? It gives you a place where you can actually start to eliminate your competition. And then it also gives you a sales advantage. And so to break those down a little bit more with the competition, right? It's instead of being looked at as saying, okay, I am, you know, or a client looks at you and says, okay, they're just a designer. There's a ton of designers, you know, they're all kind of doing the similar work. I don't know how to differentiate them. Right? That's where it kind of can feel like, Oh my gosh, I'm just getting trapped in this sea of competition versus where they look at you and they say, Oh my gosh, this is the designer that was marked out for me and my project. Like this is the person who is the expert in this. They are the ones to solve my exact problems and I have to work with them. And so right. It eliminates that competition because you're positioned in a way where your client sees you as the expert and really the only choice to work with for that specific project and their specific project. But yeah, so it gives you a sales advantage as well because then as you are able to eliminate the competition, as your clients are looking at you as the only option to work with, then it gives you a place to charge those higher ticket prices with confidence because you are the expert in that realm. And also you are providing just truly those value driven offers, right? There's so much again, kind of looping back to positioning is about them as well. And it's about the value that you're providing them and the value that you're providing your clients. And when we look at it as that, rather than just solely deliverables, it gives us that confidence to charge those higher ticket prices.

If anyone is curious about what value based pricing is, that's what value based pricing is. Yes. So it hit the nail on the head and I feel like value based pricing and premium positioning are so intertwined. I would love to share a quick story about a call that I had today. It's actually with a past client. She is one of those, I mean, if you want to say quote unquote, higher ticket clients, I don't really, you know, like it's like high ticket compared to what, you know, like one person's high ticket could be a high ticket to someone else. But I think everyone knows what we're saying. You know, we're talking in the, the four or five figure like projects, you know, and she was telling me about a problem that she has in her

business. That's finding the right people.

We were talking about hiring. We were just chit chatting. She did full branding and strategy with me. She's going to be doing web design in the new year, which is exciting. But beyond that, we were just like chit chatting about hiring and she's like, you know what? The hardest thing for me has just been finding the right people. It hasn't been the financial side. It hasn't been, oh my goodness, my margins, you know, it's like, how do I find someone that fits in with my values and my vision for my business? I mean, she's talking about hiring a full time interior designer for her team. I mean, she's got a team of like eight people now, you know, so she's, she's seasoned in this, in this area, but she was like, yeah, that's, that's the biggest challenge for me. And, and I feel like what you were saying was with uncovering the problems of those clients and then speaking directly to them. That can be positioning too. And so, you know, I've been crafting content around like that problem of like, are you struggling to find the right person to fit this challenge of reinvigorating your brand? Or, you know, have you been looking at potentially hiring a creative

director? Have you

considered using a subcontract designer to come in and be your creative director for a few months? You know, like that is speaking directly to that person's problem. That's not the first time I've heard that from someone. And so going all the way back to being curious, listening to your clients, marketing towards the types of problems that you want to be solving rather than marketing towards the problems of clients that might be younger in their businesses and not able to afford some more of those higher ticket projects. Yes. That is a really big thing that I'm sure you have seen as well with designers who are newer in business, they will create content for people who do not have the budget to work with a custom designer and are probably better suited for, you know, an Etsy logo or a show at template or something that will get them to where they need to go without them having to invest an arm and a leg, you know? So when you start shifting your conversation from those clients, I mean, if you want to be targeting newer people to business, then target those people. There's nothing wrong with that. But like, it's about, okay, where are the higher ticket clients hiding? Are you talking to them? Can they send themselves in your messaging? And so I just kind of wanted to throw that out there because I was like, I heard that from her and I was like, oh, yeah, like I know that that's a problem that she experiences. And I can assume based off of my previous conversations that that is a problem that potential clients who haven't booked with me yet are going to be attracted to and learn the one and to learn more about.

Right, exactly. Yeah. And it's calling for those people and having those conversations, right? Like people may not see the value in design and that's okay too, right? And but it's having those conversations of, right? There's a cost to everything. There's a cost to not investing in design and being able to have that problem solved. And rather than looking at it as a cost on the flip side, I mean, it is a cost and a sense, but it's also, it's that investment. It's that investment to say, okay, we are going to solve your problems so that you can reach your goals in your business so that you can, you know, whatever the outcome is, right? And that may be, that's going to be a different outcome for each person, but it's really, it's speaking to that of, okay, let's look at the problems and really speak into how we are going to solve that and provide value to you and your business. Yeah.

And I mean, like we could go down this road of like, what is the value of branding with web? It's a little easier, especially with e-commerce. You have hard data that you can pull. You can look at traffic, but I don't know, website traffic, I feel like just isn't a great accurate representation of the value of a website, especially at least in my, you know, positioning and niche. I work with creative service providers and a lot of their leads come from referrals or people who are not finding them through cold Google traffic, you know, so I think asking past clients, hey, like, how has my work for you impacted your business over the past six months? I have a six month and one year check in that I do with past clients where I get those really heart-hitting testimonials about I had the confidence to open an online shop or like, yeah, I am so excited about new clients coming to me, trusting me and not pushing back on price. Like, those are just two pieces of how much value someone can see from investing in design. And you could talk about perceived value, people not pushing back on price, charging higher prices, more revenue, because eventually, as much as we want to be flowery and be like, oh, you're so confident now, like, you're so great. Yeah, that is wonderful. It is amazing. But like, people will make business investments that they know or they hope to see back. And that's the risk. That's why we don't charge the full value of what someone could hope to see. Like, if someone wants to see $100,000 from working with you and we could guarantee that our services would cost $100,000 or $99,000. You know what I mean? Because there's such little risk. The risk is in the client trusting you to provide the stepping stone that they can build off of and see that ROI. And it's just a nebulous thing and it's hard to talk about. It gets easier with practice. But I love how this conversation has more from positioning to value-based pricing to pitching. I feel like it's all so intimately intertwined.

They really are. They really are. And yeah, I mean, I love what you said, right? Like, the more you dive into it, the more you explore all these different areas, but the easier it becomes, right? Like, it can feel. I remember when we first started looking at all these things and just being so overwhelmed by all of it. But really, it is just taking that one step after a time. One phrase that I just love and I probably say it too often, but you can't climb Everest, you know, in an hour, right? And so in a similar way, it's just taking one step after the next and, you know, before you know it, you'll feel that sense in yourself and in your business of, okay, I'm starting to gain more clarity on what this all means and how this plays out in my business. Yeah.

It's like a bunch of different lines getting closer and closer and closer together. Of course, I'm thinking of a visual metaphor here. Lines getting closer and closer together, then converging to a point where you're like light bold moment. Yeah. Okay. Things are clicking, they're making sense. And your Everest metaphor is perfect. You know, you guys know our tagline, the only designer you need to be better than is the one you were yesterday. You know, like, I am constantly wanting to achieve so much more than I have the time capacity for as a mom of a toddler and having a producer or work week and stuff like that. Like, I'm always beating myself up for not having, you know, built an entire new business in like another day, you know, but I zooming out and hearing it from you two Liz, it's just like, it makes me feel calm and like the sense of peace to know like, okay, like one step in front of the other. Just be better than I was yesterday. Maybe jot down a few notes after a discovery call. What did the client say to you? Why did they reach out to you? You know, start a list, just a brain dump list in your notion or notes up about phrases and words that you relate to as a designer, you know, I feel like over time, your positioning will reveal itself. And that's one of the craziest processes. I feel like I've ever gone through. And now that I know that it has been formed just really organically and authentically, I know it's going to last because it's not a label that I've slapped on my business, which is what it was in the beginning. And that's okay. It feels different now. And I'm sure it feels the same way for you too.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where right because there's so much that is personally intertwined with us as people. And so I think it feels so different than, you know, if you're positioning for, say, a bigger brand, I think there's a lot more nuances to look at as far as, okay, how are we actually relating this brand to the person? And maybe there are, you know, there's the strategy and research, but we're looking at it maybe a little differently than also when it comes to us because we're so personally intertwined, of course, with our own businesses. And that's the beauty of it, but it also can be one of the biggest challenges of it.

Yes, exactly. So to wrap up our conversation, what is your best advice for a designer who feels unclear about who they are and who they serve and is looking to find that unique premium positioning?

Yeah, it's such a good question. I think just take the time to dive into this yourself, right? Like we've been talking about this so much on the episode, which I love and just really take the time to start researching, start jotting down notes, start looking at, okay, what is unique about my background or my approach or what makes me unique? Your personality, right? My personality, you know, just start having kind of that brain dump session with, you know, jotting everything down and starting to research that, of course, right? There's the aspect of researching into your client's pain points and what they're looking for, what is the value that you provide them? And then just start to, if you can, you know, right, like narrow that down and get it to a point that feels, you know, like we've been saying all along, that just feels really aligned and like it clicks and makes sense for your business. And once you get there, right, it provides like there's just such this sense of, I think, relief in a way that, you know, because it does it, then just provide you that clarity for how you want to show up and how you want to message yourself. Yes. But right, like, and I guess last note that I'll say is, is there's the process of strategy, right? Like you were talking about strategy, whether it's this broad thing that you do and big thing or this small thing that you do, you know, we all start with, with that strategy with our clients. And so often when it comes to our own businesses, we don't take the time to do that for ourselves. And so I think there is that point of just pausing, carving out space for your business, carving out space for yourself to say, okay, I'm going to go through this process for myself. And the time that I take to invest in my business is not wasted, you know, it will return back. Yes.

Usually tenfold. Yes. I love everything you said that like, you know, one thing that I'll just add on top of it. If you're a listener out there and feeling like, oh, the design world is saturated or there's nothing unique about me, I'm going to challenge that. Yes. There's only one you in the world. Like that's pretty crazy. And there's definitely only one of your businesses unless someone is stealing your, your EIN or something, you know, like you are unique. There are so many things about you that nobody else can do things from your life experience that no one else has gone through good or bad, you know, like there are people that you've met and experiences you've had and places you've traveled and your childhood or whatever that looks like your education, like all of those things lead into you being just a unique human being that is worthy of so much. And so like, I just remember that feeling of being a newer designer and thinking like, no, there's nothing like I do the same things everyone else. Like there's nothing unique about me, you know, like, yes, throw that out the window. Dude, you are amazing. You know, just like, you know, let us encourage you because like if I had just thought that I wasn't that unique at all, like I probably would have eventually just quit because like, yeah, now I'm so excited to sell to clients to create content. Like all of that I'm so energized because I know at my core, I'm the only one who is doing things exactly in the way that I am, the only designer that is going to craft things and design things and think of color palettes in the way that I am. And each one of you listening right now are the exact same way. So let us encourage you. Yes.

Yeah, I love that.

Okay,

so let's talk a little bit about your courses. Hi, look, tell us how we can find you, what's included, who it's for. Give us the pitch.

Yes. Oh, so, hi, little courses is for brand and web designers, really creatives where we are going to look at your positioning. We're going to look at your position. I guess I'm jumping ahead, but this is really for our coaching program or one on one coaching program. It's called designed for this because you are designed for this, right? Like you are designed for running your business with just so much confidence and clarity. And so it is a six month program where we are going to look at your positioning, look at how you want to show up and how that plays out in the practicals of your business, right? Negotiating and sales calls and pricing yourself, getting to the nitty gritty of pricing and just all those different aspects that it comes with running your business. And so, yeah, I'm super excited for that. It's officially launching pretty soon here. So depending on when you're listening, yeah, super excited for that. But designed for this is our coaching and one on one program. And then we also have a self-paced course is called the brand designer. And this is really looking

at positioning as well.

I love positioning. You tell me.

But this one is really looking at more of a how can we position our clients, right? And so there's a lot of that self-paced course that is looking at how we can position our clients to truly stand out to their target audience and truly resonate with, you know, in the hearts and minds of their audience. Yeah. And then we have some workshops that are going on. They're the Dream Bigger and Thrive Workshop. And yeah, those we have live events or live three day events, but also we're going to make that available all, you know, continuous pretty soon here. So you'll have the option to join in whether it's on demand or in a live, you know, three days setting for those workshops. So different options for people to join in, but you can find all that. Hilow, yeah, Hilowcourses.com and on our Instagram, which is at Hilow Designs.

Awesome. All of those links are going to be in the episode description. So if you guys are interested in being coached by Liz, you've gotten a little bit of a sense of her perspective and her positioning, which is kind of cool. Definitely go check her out. We're just really excited to, you know, be able to feature this stuff and support other designers and, you know, our audience, like you guys listening, you know, you guys, you just are constantly in search of how to make yourselves better one day at a time. See what I did there, guys. Yes. Yeah, go check that stuff out. Okay, we're going to wrap up with our inbox question. Stevie Mowval asks, how do you break into a new niche? I have a city clientele from a specific industry and would like to shift into different industries, but I don't know how to make the jump without having all the contacts. I feel like this is a great question for you, Liz. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, that can be a hard jump for sure, but I think it really does come, you know, again, kind of one step at a time, but really looking at, okay, how, what type of clients do I want to attract and how can I start speaking to them directly, right? Like we were saying, speaking to the pain points and how we're going to solve their problems and also showcasing that in your portfolio and gosh, one of the best ways to do that too is through passion projects, right? You know, if you want to attract a certain type of client and you don't have work that reflects that passion projects are a great way to show that because then you are speaking the language through your verbal messaging, through the written messaging, you know, you're showcasing that in portfolio pieces that showcase the type of work that you can do within the industry that you want to get into. And then from there, right? Like when you start to make that entrance into the market that you want to start working in, ask for referrals, you know, make those connections, ask for referrals. And it's just amazing how things start to spite our web out from there.

I love that. You have to ask for the clients that you want. You have to, you know, you have to be okay with stepping into something new and trying something being curious. I think I said the word curious like 10 times this episode, but yeah, I love the answer. I didn't have anything to add. I think that was awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so, so much for joining us. It truly means the world for our guests to be donating their time to be with us here and to help, you know, share some actionable advice for you guys. I'm just so grateful that we got to connect Liz and I'm definitely going to be picking your brain all about working with your husband. We

were chatting about

that before we hopped on the recording. My husband is joining the Hello June team guys. And so, you know, there's of course like unique challenges there. And, you know, I know that your husband has moved on to some newer, exciting things, but you have that experience under your belt. So that could be a whole other podcast episode. Oh, yes.

Yeah.