Punishment, Rehabilitation, and Human Nature

Clive and Andrew debate whether punishment works, the role of mental illness, and the need for therapy over retribution.

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Human rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smith joins me for one of the best debates we’ve ever had on Heretics. This is a clash of ideologies on some of the most divisive issues today.

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Reach out to Clive: clivestaffordsmith@gmail.com

Visit his site: https://justiceleague.org.uk

Follow him on X: https://x.com/clivessmith

And Insta: https://www.instagram.com/clivestaffordsmith

We go head-to-head on:

- Islam and culture in the West

- Socialism, communism, and the idea of utopia

- Privilege and identity politics

- The death penalty, crime, and justice

- Even the shocking reality of witnessing an execution in the electric chair

Clive and I disagree on almost everything — but that’s exactly why this conversation matters. If you’ve ever wondered how the “other side” thinks about prisons, privilege, or politics, this is the episode to watch.

👉 Let me know in the comments how you would have argued in my place. What would you have said?

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Chapters:

0:00 Clive Stafford-Smith Highlights

2:25 Death Row & Losing A Client

5:25 Joan of Arc - What She Actually Did