Joining Peter and Jesse is business strategist Roger L. Martin, former Dean of the University of Toronto's Rotman School of Management, who advanced the conversation about design and business with his influential work in the late 2000s. We'll talk about the parts of that vision that worked out as well as the parts that didn't, the new forces shaping design's business impact, and what design leaders should be advocating for next from Aristotle to Hermes.