It's fascinating how much the narrative has changed, I remember when I changed my diet, when I was on well 10, 11 years ago, and I stopped eating ultra processed foods, and that confused people so much, you know, I remember, you know, very smart people saying, oh, it's all just chemicals, not going to make any difference, and it's been absolutely fascinating to see this shift in narrative, I ask you actually on that, it sounds to me very much like it's a kind of paradigm shift, like a real new frontier in medicine, in healthcare, but what do you say to all the kind of criticism or backlash, both from the medical field, as you said, the kind of skepticism still that remains of what you eat doesn't really make a difference, and also from the public, I mean, just, you obviously sent a link ahead of this conversation, for example, to some daily mail articles you'd written in line with the new book about changing your diet, moving away from ultra processed foods, and it just still feels like there's a lack of will in the narrative to take this on board and almost take that ownership of your health on board.

Yeah, well, overcoming decades of culture, that people don't feel in charge of their health through their food, so I think for many people it has to be a sort of revelation moment that, you know, they've got to read enough of this stuff, and, you know, I do get quite a few of my readers and say, yes, I get it, I've read the books, I do understand I've changed my life and my family, but what proportion of the population read our books is very small, you know, and they still go back to their GP, and they'll been trained like me and in thinking that really food is a pretty worthless point of discussion when it comes to health, just take your tablets and go away, so, and you're dealing with the food industry that has massive lobbying power in government to make sure that no one changes the message that cheap food is the best way for the population, and we've seen that, you know, the politics of that, so I think in the UK and the US we are facing an uphill battle to fight our lack of food culture and the food politics, the food companies, the diet industry, and, you know, you could be quite strong as an individual to say, I'm going to, you know, actually do this myself, I'm going to, you know, it's like you suddenly change religion, and you say, this does matter, I'm going to take a gut-centric view of the world, you know, whether you're vegan meat eater, whatever, you say, well, forget all that, I'm going to, these are the guys, I'm going to look after, these are my animals, I'm going to do what's right and ethical for them, and I think that that's quite a big change for many people, you know, just the idea of the calorie, people still get very upset at medical meetings when I say, you know, calories are rubbish, they say, well, you can't say that it's fact, it's, you know, one of the laws of thermodynamics and all this kind of nonsense, and the very much stuck, it reminds me a bit like Galileo's time, you know, when arguing the world was around, but I think it's fast moving, and I've seen a change since I read my first book in how it's been perceived and how I'm not seen as quite such an outsider wack-o figure now, you know, the good thing about particularly the UK is that the speed of which you can make changes in the supermarket, and who would have predicted five years ago that every supermarket would now have kefir, and not any kefir, but you've got kimchi and you've got kombucha in pubs, it's not everywhere in the country, but in London, you can get kombucha in most pubs now, and I just think there is some hope there because by the consumer demanding this stuff, you can change things and not have to wait for governments and the NHS, guidelines, et cetera.