This week's guest and topic are so big we have to do it over the course of two episodes. As organizations struggle with building broad citizen developer programs on top of low-code investments, a few shining examples of success stand out, none better than what Paul Kobylnaski and team have built at Shell. Paul joins John Rymer and Rob Koplowitz to discuss a broad range of topics including building the business case with Finance engaging the business with sophisticated change management and the nuts and bolts of running a program that provides transformative business value while managing risk in an environment with no room for error.