"i'm trying to make sense of what bet actually looks like as a society, and i don't thing the answers to that are obvious," he says. "Dictatorships want to demobilize for population... The one for population to say, ander's not interested in politics." In russia there is no mass creation of hatred of ukraine or whatever - they didn't even do that in the first war. So how do these components go together as that a new type of dictatorship? Will puton be pushed towards inventing an ideology? Will he be pushed towards relenting some of ther control?"
Anne Applebaum is a staff writer for The Atlantic and a Senior Fellow of the Agora Institute at Johns Hopkins University. In her books - most notably Red Famine: Stalin’s War on Ukraine and Iron Curtain: The Crushing of Eastern Europe she has chronicled the terrible human costs of past attempts by Russia to dominate countries in Central and Eastern Europe.
In this week’s conversation, Anne Applebaum and Yascha Mounk discuss the developing ideology of "Putinism," what it would look like for Ukraine to win the war, and how democracies can defend their values in a world of resurgent authoritarianism.
This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.
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