I love that interview because if it had not been for the length of time and the discussion that went on for a while, you wouldn't have gotten to that moment of revelation. I think in the media that's played at me is these cartoonish characters. Maybe there's a little more little complexity here. That's what I like about podcasts. And also you have the ability to think in real time. In another medium, you need to have what your agenda is and stick to that agenda.