Dealing with religious sectarianism and religious violence. Iraq and Afghanistan

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The situation in Afghanistan before the US withdrawal was relatively stable, with minimal casualties and containment of terrorist attacks, due to setting low objectives and not engaging in nation building. In contrast, Iraq's situation was affected by the removal of the state infrastructure after toppling Saddam Hussein. The process of de-Baathification in Iraq was deemed necessary by some in the Shia Muslim community, highlighting the complexity of the situation. The failure in Iraq was attributed to a lack of understanding of religious sectarianism and the capacity for internecine violence, coupled with unrealistic idealism in the approach to governance. The challenge for the US in dealing with such countries lies in balancing idealism with the reality of on-the-ground military deployment and navigating uncomfortable aspects such as political deals with tribal and religious groups, corruption, and indirect rule.

Sam Harris speaks with Rory Stewart about the fraying world order. They discuss the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the problems with nation building, cultural ignorance, tolerance for corruption, our catastrophic withdrawal from Afghanistan, the role that Islam played in our failures in Afghanistan and Iraq, conspiracy theories, the influence of social media, cults of martyrdom, the war in Ukraine, the age of populism, Trump and the future of NATO, Brexit, the current state of politics, GiveDirectly, and other topics.

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