Engineering Shifts From Typing Code To Systems Fluency

Elizabeth Stone is the Chief Product and Technology Officer (CPTO) at Netflix, where she oversees Engineering, Product, and Design. Since her first appearance on the podcast two years ago—which remained my second-most-popular episode for more than a year—she has expanded her role to lead product, in addition to engineering. Before Netflix, Elizabeth was VP of Science at Lyft, Chief Operating Officer at Nuna, an economist at Analysis Group, and a trader at Merrill Lynch.

In our in-depth conversation, we discuss:

1. Why “systems thinking” is now the most important skill she looks for

2. How to manage the flood of AI-generated output without losing quality or signal

3. How Netflix thinks about AI fluency as a universal expectation rather than a level-specific skill

4. What “excellence as an operating system” means

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Episode transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/netflix-cpto-on-ai-and-the-future

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Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0

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Where to find Elizabeth Stone:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabeth-stone-608a754

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction

(02:25) AI and role confusion: the storming phase before the forming phase

(07:36) How roles have changed in the past two and a half years

(11:55) Will functions survive? The case for craft specialism

(13:26) What Netflix is hiring more of—and less of

(17:22) Why systems thinking is the rising skill across every function

(20:20) Is the design process dead?

(22:08) Skills trending down

(28:33) AI fluency and Netflix’s career ladder overlay

(31:00) AI use cases beyond coding

(35:12) Netflix’s AI history

(38:36) Excellence as an operating system

(41:11) The pillars of the excellence OS

(46:41) The keeper’s test—and why it’s mostly a positive conversation

(50:21) Attracting top talent in the age of frontier AI labs

(52:54) Junior talent, craft mastery, and the mentorship question

(56:25) Where engineering goes in 5 to 10 years

(59:45) The future of entertainment: beyond film and TV

(1:02:18) AI in Hollywood: Netflix’s creator-enablement position

(1:06:15) Lightning round and final thoughts

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Referenced:

• How Netflix builds a culture of excellence | Elizabeth Stone (CTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-netflix-builds-a-culture-of-excellence

• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach

• The design process is dead. Here’s what’s replacing it. | Jenny Wen (head of design at Claude): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-design-process-is-dead

• Claude Code: https://www.anthropic.com/product/claude-code

• Claude Cowork: https://www.anthropic.com/product/claude-cowork

• Netflix’s “Keeper Test” and Why You Need It | Lorne Rubis: https://www.highlights.lornerubis.com/2015/08/the-netflix-keeper-test-and-the-courage-to-take-it

• Innovation for Filmmaking, By Filmmakers: Why InterPositive Is Joining Netflix: https://about.netflix.com/en/news/why-interpositive-is-joining-netflix

• InterPositive: https://weareinterpositive.com

• Netflix Prize: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netflix_Prize

• Quarterback on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81482895

• The Bill Simmons Podcast on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/82186214

• Spencer Pratt on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/spencerpratt

• Salman Rushdie’s Substack: https://salmanrushdie.substack.com

• Remarkably Bright Creatures on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81911351

• Eight Sleep: https://www.eightsleep.com

• Tour de France: https://www.letour.fr/en

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Recommended books:

• Thinking in Systems: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/1603580557

• Into Thin Air: A Personal Account of the Mt. Everest Disaster: https://www.amazon.com/Into-Thin-Air-Personal-Disaster/dp/0385494785

• Liar’s Poker: https://www.amazon.com/Liars-Poker-Norton-Paperback-Michael/dp/039333869X

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.