Recognizing the Failure of Defunding Police

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The defund police movement is seen to be falling apart as police departments are being refunded amidst a rising crime wave. The initial idea was to create a power vacuum with the hope that something better would emerge. However, the concept is criticized as it overlooks Thomas Hobbes' argument that human actions are based on incentives, leading to potential misunderstandings and conflicts, especially in the absence of political order.

Yascha Mounk and Nellie Bowles discuss her career at The New York Times and reporting on the ground from urban “autonomous zones” in 2020.

Nellie Bowles is a writer and reporter and the head of strategy at The Free Press, where she writes the TGIF column. Her book is Morning After the Revolution: Dispatches from the Wrong Side of History.

In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Nellie Bowles discuss how she came to chafe against the institutional culture of The New York Times and why she left; how new power hierarchies arose within media and institutions where small groups came to wield outsized power; and how the transformative ideas about power and society that became dominant in 2020 continue to hold great influence.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarit y .

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