Find The Outside

Tim & Tuesday kick off the new year reflecting on the turning points of 2020 while reaching into history and ancestry to lend some meaning and insight on this moment we’re in and where we go from here.For detailed show notes, links and resources, please visit: https://www.findtheoutside.com/podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Tim & Tuesday host a far ranging conversation on how they relate to ambition and willpower in thier work. How is our drive helping, and hindering, our ability to do the work we love?For detailed show notes, links and resources, please visit: https://www.findtheoutside.com/podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Tim & Tuesday dive into a conversation on class, spurred on by a recent conversation with an Outsider about delegation and leadership. Join in as we explore money, class structures, hierarchy, unconscious bias, leadership responsibilities and more  - all within the the very practical context of  the structure of The Outside.For detailed show notes, links and resources, please visit: https://www.findtheoutside.com/podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Inspired by Dr. Martin Shaw and author Cyndi Suarez, Tim and Tuesday explore the power of words, story and myth in systems change. How can "Articulation Leadership" add depth and momentum to groups seeking to make progress on big change?For detailed show notes, links and resources, please visit: https://www.findtheoutside.com/podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Tim and Tuesday talk with fellow Outsiders, Sommer Sibilly-Brown and Kristina Torres, where they introduce us to the Island of St. Croix, Crucians and how this small island can show us that big change can be done differently.For detailed show notes, links and resources, please visit: http://findtheoutside.com/podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What does the spiritual journey look like for people involved in large scale systems change work? How is the spiritual path different from the mental health and leadership journeys also at play for those engaged in change initiatives? Listen in as Tim and Tuesday share some of their own personal journeys and what they're discovering along the way.New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com Find the songs we’ve played on the podcast—on our playlist. Or search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Resources + Links mentioned in today's episode:Awakin CallsDuration: 50:37Produced by: Mark Coffin Theme music: Gary BlakemoreEpisode cover image: source Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In the first episode of season three, Tim and Tuesday talk with Cyndi Suarez, author of The Power Manual, where they explore the complexities of power and language. Join us for an invigorating, heartfelt and insightful conversation. Together, Tim Merry and Tuesday Ryan-Hart are THE OUTSIDE—systems change and equity facilitators who bring the fresh air necessary to organize movements, organizations, and collaborators forward for progress, surfacing new mindsets for greater participation and shared impact.3.01 — SHOW NOTESTuesday: Today on the podcast, our first of Season III, we are talking with Cyndi Suarez. Cyndi is the Senior Editor at Nonprofit Quarterly, she’s the author of The Power Manual: How To Master Complex Power Dynamics, she’s worked as a strategy and innovation consultant with a focus on networks and platforms for social movements, and she studied feminist theory and organizational development for social change.  Cyndi: In the last few years, I’ve realized a different form of leadership that I’ve been exploring and I’ve been calling it “Articulation Leadership.” Seeing the power in putting things that we want into words; how that just opens up different worlds and possibilities. Tim: A lot of what we [The Outside] do happens in the experience that people have with each other but it becomes vastly insufficient when you are talking to someone about some major transformation work, that they will feel has very high stakes to it, and then you’re like, you have to really experience it to know what we are talking about. And so, we’re really in a question of how do you use words to evoke something that in some ways is felt? And then there is something for me about whether we are developing a new language or is it about finding the right words for the moment? Those are the two big questions we are in. Cyndi: The work of translation - of being able to both dive deep for the depth that you need and to find common ground - is one of the biggest challenges of organizing for power. It often does require redefining these identities that have been put on us and at the same time you need to reconnect with a larger table. Tuesday: When you talked about translation or connection; there’s a piece that is strategy. Part of it is grounding and deepening so we know what we’re doing and who we are to do it, but then there is also this piece around strategy that you just have to pay attention to. The reason we formed The Outside is because we felt like as we did systems change work there was very little power analysis and then in some of the movement-based spaces, there wasn’t much strategy to the level that you are talking about - not connecting out to make change. You have to do both to get you where you want to go. Cyndi: In my work, I am constantly challenging people to question the idea of shared strategy. Why? Why don’t we have a portfolio? Why do we have to agree? What do we have to agree on? This idea that we have to agree on everything is really extreme and tiring. It does not allow for the diversity that we have in our spaces. It doesn’t encourage it. I think there is a way that we need to be both humble and sophisticated in these conversations. We have to care enough and be curious enough about people. Being drawn towards difference is less explored especially in leadership and translation work. Tim: That bridging role is about power but also what we are often doing is pitching to people who hold wealth, influence, positional or hierarchical authority something that in many ways will undermine the established power that they have or the way they have got to that position of power. What’s the language that translates into positions of power - why power needs to be let go of and how does that begin to start shifting people’s fundamental beliefs about themselves and what it means to lead in today’s world? What’s the language that’s hard enough to bridge into the leadership worlds that we are currently engaging but soft enough to point to something new?Tuesday: Cyndi, you’ve just said so many interesting little nuggets… I am curious how you got to where you are?Cyndi: Since I was a kid, I always knew that I was going to write about power. I loved reading. Reading has always been a big part of my life. I am attracted to things that are different and that I don’t know. Tim: How do you stay tuned to this? Cyndi: I’m reading this book called Sacred Contract and one of the things that she says about people who tend to create something new or something big is that there is a point at which they have to go against the tribe. They always have to break from what is known to them in order to make their contribution. I think part of it is that. I came knowing and trusting myself and I have a spiritual practice - I am very inward focused. I spend a lot of time imagining what I want. My trajectory has been that I always end up doing exactly what I wanted to do. Tuesday: You feel so clear in your internal compass and there is an outward thing that is happening - you don’t feel afraid of ideas. It’s so unique. Also, please tell us about The Edge Institute. Cyndi: The Edge Institute grew out of the work that I do with Nonprofit Quarterly and The Power Manual. When we engage people of colour, in the sector, no matter what level of leadership they were in, people really wanted a different space, outside of their organization, to come and to think and to be with other leaders and to explore and create the new forms they want or suspect other people want. “Forms” is everything from subjectivity, to organizational form, to interactional frameworks… anything that is a form; that’s what this is a space for. It’s a larger thing than a project in a nonprofit world. Launching our interactive website in October 2020 - edgeleadership.orgFor more of Cyndi’s articles, or to reach out, visit her on Twitter @cyndisuarez or by visiting cyndisuarez.com Song: “Mountains,” by The Vision, feat. Andreya Triana (Danny Krivit Remix)Poem: PEACE, by AkalaPEACE Peace is on the way By the sword they say After this, this last blow Last chop, last drop After this, this last scream Last shout, last trample of boot Just one more, one last Rubble wreck where once were dreams housed Last plane, last flame, last sky Just one, one more naked Vietnamese girl Be she Russian, Israeli, Palestinian, Sudanese Or great, great, great, really great British Just one more placard wielding warrior And this last sword-slinging gunman One more song of machine metal Hurtling death to outrun life Just one more war Then we can have peaceSubscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 44:12Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary BlakemoreEpisode cover image: source Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In season two’s final episode, Tim and Tuesday wrap up by offering a piece of advice: stay woven! Stay woven with the people you care about, stay woven with the people you work with and pay attention to how woven and connected you are in your communities. And if you notice someone falling away, weave them back in!   Keep weaving the world events into our everyday living. These times demand all of us together meeting these times.Together, Tim Merry and Tuesday Ryan-Hart are THE OUTSIDE—systems change and equity facilitators who bring the fresh air necessary to organize movements, organizations, and collaborators forward for progress, surfacing new mindsets for greater participation and shared impact.2.20 — SHOW NOTESTues: This week on the podcast we are talking about being woven… being woven together as Outsiders, and as a team, being woven together with our clients a little bit in this changing context and then making sure our work is woven and meeting what is happening in the external world.Tues: I am feeling that Tim and I are quite well woven together. I am feeling good about where we are in partnership with this business and my experience of that is simply a re-weaving or re-knitting together, in the past couple weeks, that make us quite strong and smooth. Tim: This is our final podcast of this season… and I like the idea of woven as well as it brings together many of the topics we’ve been talking about over the last two seasons and that feels right - what’s happening between us, what’s happening in the world, what’s happening in our team and in relationship to the people we work with. It feels like a good way to end talking about things being woven, and how they are woven and how well they are woven and how we weave each other together and how important that is when you are working remotely. The quality of attention and alertness we need to have to our relationships so that we can deliver on the work that is at hand is heightened. We’ve always said that relationships equal results. I think that is even more true in terms of being able to deliver results when you are not able to take a walk that morning together or whatever else it might be that you need to do to sustain your relationships. It’s that intention and aspiration to pay attention to each other. Tues: I did this work to be in partnership with you and the work is better when we’re in it together. This idea of distance - we can’t in the same way know what is up for each other. I wonder if there is some inevitable moving apart in this remote way of working that then says what are your practices for coming back together?Tim: When we are working remotely, and in technical web-based spaces, we also need to pay attention to the conditions we put in place for people to connect and contribute. There is a personal reaching out and paying attention to relationship but a lot of what we are doing is tech upgrade. How do you create the ease between people of reaching out to each other to keep everyone connected in? Tues: We were able to get by on good equipment until that was “the way” of being together. We are making it possible for our physical bodies to connect more. Tim: Yeah, can you have a set-up that allows you to relax and be online? Find your techie mate and have them help you to set up an environment to be conducive to being relaxed into online spaces. It’s a big deal when running online meetings and to organize effectively. The other thing I am realizing is one-on-one conversations still need to happen to build the relationship. This also requires effort and planning and it is part of the work. Tim: It’s wild out there, mate and that’s another reason to stay woven. It feels stressful. Meg [Wheatley] also says when the shit hits the fan, “people turn to each other.” That is why this species has managed to evolve. When things get hard, we turn to each other. Tim: If there is one piece of advice in our final podcast episode, as all of us head through the summer and into the Fall and Autumn, it’s stay woven. Stay woven with the people you’re caring about, stay woven with the people you’re working with to deliver the things that matter to you in the world, pay attention not just to the inevitable pivot and thrust of energy we all need to create to get through re-entering our work spaces in new ways but also pay attention to how woven we are and how connected we are as teams and caring members of communities. Tues: This particular moment is calling for a re-weaving or different kinds of weaving that we haven’t had to access before. Most of us haven’t had to do this kind of online life before. There is also the larger movement of breaking down of systems and seeing the brokenness of systems that I think also will require a re-weaving. As you think about staying woven, find new ways to weave and then also look for opportunities to re-weave. Tues: My uncle Chucky was very active in SNCC (Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee), so I can go to historical news reels and find mention of him and what he did and read his story. This makes me think of what my grandkids will ask of this time and what we did and how we were and will I be proud of how we/I responded? Tim: There is something about looking back and understanding the complexity of our heritage and our lineage that contributes to our ability to be here now. Tues: I feel like we all have to do that. We all have to know where we’re coming from to point where we’re going. Tim: For those of you who dane to tune in to us, we are grateful. Thank you for joining us. We will continue thorough the summer through a vlog series. You will find us on Facebook and Instagram for that. You will get to meet the members of The Outside team. The podcast will start up again this Autumn - let us know if there are things you want to hear in Season 3 or things you want us to go deeper into. Song: “Abebrese” by Ebo Taylor.Poem: “Turning to One Another” by Margaret Wheatley, “Turning to One Another,” 2002There is no power greater than a community discovering what it cares about. Ask “What’s possible?” not “What’s wrong?” Keep asking.Notice what you care about.Assume that many others share your dreams.Be brave enough to start a conversation that matters. Talk to people you know.Talk to people you don’t know.Talk to people you never talk to.Be intrigued by the differences you hear.Expect to be surprised.Treasure curiosity more than certainty.Invite in everybody who cares to work on what’s possible. Acknowledge that everyone is an expert about something. Know that creative solutions come from new connections.Remember, you don’t fear people whose story you know. Real listening always brings people closer together.Trust that meaningful conversations can change your world. Rely on human goodness. Stay together.Subscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com. Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 31:31Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary BlakemoreEpisode cover image: source Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

For episode nineteen of season two, Tim and Tuesday delve into the hopefulness, the openness, the fear, and the fragility they are seeing in this moment of people rising up together to demand changeTogether, Tim Merry and Tuesday Ryan-Hart are THE OUTSIDE—systems change and equity facilitators who bring the fresh air necessary to organize movements, organizations, and collaborators forward for progress, surfacing new mindsets for greater participation and shared impact.2.19 — SHOW NOTESTim: There is a lot happening in the world and Tuesday started one of our meetings today, by talking about what is happening in the United States as the Uprising. That’s what we are going to talk about today - the Uprising.Tues: I’ve been reading that language and it’s really resonates for me. I feel like it’s an important way to frame what is happening here in the US. It’s that thing around language and narrative really shapes perception. So much of what’s happening here are peaceful protests; our people taking to the streets in great anger and determination and care and commitment and love. Words like ‘riot’ and ‘looting’ are being used to describe - what I think, what I experience, what I know to be - people rising up together to demand change. And so I think different language is needed and that needs to start right up front. I think it’s fine to call these protests because we are protesting what’s happening and what I think is also happening, which cannot be ignored, are hundreds and thousands of people coming together to say no more… and that’s an uprising. That feels quite different from how you might see it portrayed here. Tues: What I am seeing is a lot of characterization of violence and looting and I am not saying that none of that is happening and it’s all happening in a context. There’s this piece around who is actually being violent - is it the police being violent to protestors, because that is a violent protest. Where is the violence coming from? Is the violence instigated? There is so much happening and also, there is righteous anger happening that I am sure is becoming violent because when you are being killed you fight back in any way you can. It just feels like that kind of nuance is not understood generally. Tues: Never before in my life have I seen so many people have their attention towards, and care, about black lives and that’s amazing and it makes me hopeful. And I also don’t believe that ever in my life, have I felt the country so fragile. And so, it could be a moment where we could break through and it could also go really badly. I’m really aware of the fragility of this moment.Tim: I see, in my limited circles of friends and family, an uprising in curiosity and consciousness and desire to learn about issues of race, and social justice and equity. People who, in my circles and community, haven’t engaged in these conversations engaging me in these conversations. Especially in my largely white, middle-class, little world there is a surge of sentiment around I need to be better informed, I need to better understand, I need to be better educated, I am missing something here.Tim: One of the things I am finding, having had the enormous privilege of being your friend and business partner, is that you have always said to me don’t go to the anti-racist training. Go look at your own family, go look at your own history, go look at your own relationships to these issues, from your own story in your own life, and build your own analysis so that you can be in these conversations from a place of your own understanding rather than having been told how to think by somebody else having read the book or done the training. That’s been a massive part of my journey. Tim: We just need the volume turned up right now. We need people in this conversation that have never been in this conversation before. We need to open the gates here because there is a momentum building, an uprising happening that we want to lend as much strength to as we possibly can; especially in the face of misrepresentation in the media and in the news outlets. Tues: For years, I have said: “Not that. We must move beyond this conversation that we are currently having.” And for me, now is not the time to say “not that conversation.” Now is the time for all of it. If it is geared toward moving racial justice forward, even if it’s not the conversation I would have, I want it to be had. I want full press right now. All of the ways that people want, and need and can talk about it. And what I still know is true is the current dialogue will not bring everyone in. We still need alternate ways. That also needs an acceleration right now. I’m not in anyway willing to say, “not that, this.” What are the 18 doorways in? Let’s open them all. Because we need numbers, we need mass. At this moment, I am seeking a way. Tim: This truly has become an international movement where all eyes are on the United States. I have this real sense of we are all watching. This is the thing that is different about what is happening now - it is international. Tues: I’ve never experienced a moment like this where there are so many eyes, openness, and willingness. I am so aware of never being in a place like this before and that is tragic because of so many lives that have been lost to make this happen. At some point, this amount of death (96 unarmed black men and women, killed by the police since 2014) had to cause some attention. Tim: You’ve used the word fragile and full of hope. Can you talk to me about both of those?Tues: Hope - the amount of people who care, who are dancing in the streets, who are singing, making the signs. There is something vibrant and vital, and potent, and electric happening and it’s going in a new direction. And, as we know, when that new system begins to form, the old system does everything it can to crush it. So, of course, it’s fragile because we are a country with a lot of weapons, people out in the streets and a President that will single white nationalists, who are armed and organized, and so of course you begin to see other militaristic, left responses. We have a galvanization of people out and about, the vast majority without weapons, we have a militarized police force and a militarized white, nationalist groups. That feels to me quite fragile. It really could ‘break bad.’Tues: A moment like this can lead to massive transformation and it has. And it can lead to massive rupture. I appreciate people trying. We need all of the things. Song: “Ella’s Song,” by Sweet Honey in the Rock Poem: “Advice for the Living,” by Lemn SissayDead fast this.Everyone’s dying to arrive,Living for deadlines, trying to,Stay straight as a die. They’ll getThere, dead or alive because they’reDead set, and they do arrive in shoresOf dead heats, dead beats at dead endsDead messed up like dead stock. The livingDead flogging dead horses in the dead of Night. Dead right dead lost dead right.Every now and again we stop deadIn our tracks, dead still ‘cause it’sDead hard, like a dead weight’sDropped on the head… wouldn’tYou die for a little piece, die forA breath of hope? Dead right, I would. In the dead centre of All this deadlocking, dreadLocked. Words, dead ahead.They read: Life is not worthliving if there’s no one that youwould die for. Dead right. Subscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com. Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 32:24Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary BlakemoreEpisode cover image: source Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

For episode eighteen of season two, Tim and Tuesday discuss what it means to take the work, and The Outside, to greater scale and longer lasting impact.Together, Tim Merry and Tuesday Ryan-Hart are THE OUTSIDE—systems change and equity facilitators who bring the fresh air necessary to organize movements, organizations, and collaborators forward for progress, surfacing new mindsets for greater participation and shared impact.NOTE TO LISTENERS: We recorded this podcast prior to COVID-19 but the question of how we scale our change work for greatest impact feels even more important. The global crisis has brought into sharp relief the need for systemic and structural change towards great equity. The short-term discomfort of change is better than returning to the long-term dysfunction of life prior to COVID-19. Let's work together for it!2.18 — SHOW NOTESTim: This week on the podcast we are going to talk about “scaling” - what it means to take the work to greater and greater scale. We are going to touch in on two things: (1) How we are going to greater scale with the clients and people we are working with on how we roll out change and graduate it to a level of scale where it really begins to impact the systems and organizational structures as a whole; and (2) The Outside is also going to scale. Tues: One of the things I want to begin to interrupt, because it feels like right on the edge of our own learning, is that when we talk about greater and greater scale; the inference is that we somehow mean we’re “scaling up.” One of the things that we’ve been in really clear learning, and articulation of, is the idea that there are different kinds of scale. When we talk about scaling, we might be talking about “scaling impact,” but that does not mean getter bigger, etc. The first time I heard the difference between scaling up was with Deborah Frieze - scaling up vs scaling across… which is sharing learning out across an ecosystem. The scale of impact is felt because you are scaling across. Tues: We are soon going to have Gabrielle Donnelly on the podcast and she and Bronagh Gallagher are really expanding our thinking on scaling. They talk about scaling up (how do we work with systems and structures), scaling across (across an organization), scaling deep (shifting culture and beliefs and assumptions) and scaling scree (scree are mountain pebbles - often when you begin to do this work, other pebbles begin to fall which you had no intention of falling). Tues: For example, last year we did a project with a Core Team that launched 11 prototypes (small experiments such as layers of decision-making, mental health, purchasing processes) and created 8 recommendations from their learnings. This year, the work is around how do we institutionalize those recommendations. That is the scale we are at now.  The work has gone from a small group of people experimenting to having our work impact the system and people’s daily lives.Tim: What I love about our approach is that it is graduated. It’s a far more organic style of change. It begins to build the culture of people being involved in designing their own futures and then implementing them. Ownership is all the way through the process. Tues: As we are doing this particular work; it is important to be explicit that this is an iterative process and sets you up for the next iteration. In times of stress and regression, how do we remind folks that this is a different way of working. Part of our articulation can be that there is going to be a first wave and then we have to make decisions and the tendency may be to pull back. We have to keep facing forward and keep working. Tues: We have another client who, over the past 18-months, has been focused on internal to their organization - what does it mean to work in this way, how do we want the organization to be working as a way to get ready to shift the very large system the organization is located within, which is a very large bureaucracy in the City of New York. After 18 months we are getting to the point where we are thinking of how do we open our eyes to the larger system and begin to think about how we would impact that. These folks have had 18 months to look inward before they begin to look outward. Tim: Simultaneously to all of this happening to two of our biggest clients, The Outside itself is going through its own scaling. We started with you, me and Jen and now we are 16 people. Let’s be clear, we are not 16 people working full-time, that’s not our model. We are up to 50% of somebody’s time, with the assumption that they are doing something else in their lives that they want to be putting time into. The engagement with The Outside supports that - financially, intellectually, practically. Now, we are suddenly managing a large distributed team and trying to figure out how we maintain relationships with people who are spanning continents and how we do that over time. We also have people coming to us looking for work. A previous client has just brought the idea to us to open an office in Sweden. It’s just kinda crazy. Tim: Beyond that, Bronagh has really brought to our attention climate emergency. As we grow, and we burn more and more carbon travelling to our clients, Bronagh is bringing this to our attention. How is this cooked into the model and how we turn up as we grow bigger and bigger? That is one of the reasons we want to create local teams in other parts of the world. But then maybe we need to become the cutting edge, global leader in online, remote-based systems change work because in 10 years we are going to be operating in a world of increasing crisis where travel becomes more limited. Tues: What feels good about this idea of a particular issue, like climate justice, is that it feels like with the people we are bringing into the work - even if they don’t have the expertise around climate justice - they can get behind it because of what we stand for. If you’re an Outsider, and you’re committed to equity and justice, there is no resistance, there is only “okay, how do we pull up our sleeves and do this together.” The people part of the scaling is really important. As we get bigger, how do we stay together? How do we really stay together on this team, and the team continues and we push ourselves and the team reflects the world we want to see. It’s a little bit like Shared Work. Part of what keeps us together is our work with clients, but part of it is we can really rally around the idea of climate justice. There is something about this team having a gravitational pull of the work. Tim: We’re all building this together. It’s kinda amazing!Song: “Final Form,” by Sampa The GreatQuote rather than a poem: From the book “Games for Actors and Non-Actors” by Augusto Boel“When so many certainties have become so many doubts, when so many dreams have withered on exposure to sunlight, and so many hopes have become as many deceptions—now that we are living through times and situations of great perplexity, full of doubts and uncertainties, now more than ever I believe it is time for a theatre which, at its best, will ask the right questions at the right times. Let us be democratic and ask our audiences to tell us their desires, and let us show them alternatives. Let us hope that one day—please, not too far in the future—we’ll be able to convince or force our governments, our leaders, to do the same; to ask their audiences—us—what they should do, so as to make this world a place to live and be happy in—yes, it is possible—rather than just a vast market in which we sell our goods and our souls. Let’s hope. Let’s work for it!”Subscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com. Find the song we played in today’s show—and every song we’ve played in previous shows—on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.Duration: 40:08Produced by: Mark Coffin @ Sound Good StudiosTheme music: Gary BlakemoreEpisode cover image: source Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.