Tax Section Odyssey

In this joint episode, Neil Amato, host of the Journal of Accountancy podcast and Melanie Lauridsen, VP of AICPA Tax Policy and Advocacy discuss two recent Supreme Court decisions.   The Supreme Court ruling in Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo overturned a 40-year-old precedent of deference referred to as the Chevron doctrine, affecting future rulemaking by eliminating the need for judges to defer to agency interpretations of ambiguous statutes. In Corner Post, Inc. v. Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, the Supreme Court ruled to alter the statute of limitations for challenging regulations, starting the clock when a plaintiff is injured rather than when the regulation is enforced.   These decisions introduce significant uncertainty for the accounting profession, particularly regarding IRS regulations and long-standing rules and emphasize the need for CPAs to stay informed and adaptable as the implications of these rulings unfold.    AICPA Resources Melancon: Supreme Court decisions are ‘big deal’ for tax pros, The Tax Adviser, Aug. 1, 2024 Supreme Court overrules 40-year-old Chevron doctrine, The Tax Adviser, June 28, 2024 Supreme Court decision on Chevron doctrine will affect tax pros, Journal of Accountancy, June 24, 2024 For a full transcript of the episode, see  Tax Section Odyssey on the AICPA & CIMA website.   

On this episode of the Tax Section Odyssey podcast episode, Dave Kirk, National Tax Partner — EY, and Chair of the AICPA’s Pass-through Entity Tax Task Force, discusses the complexities surrounding state tax refunds related to the pass-through entity tax (PTET) and delves into the challenges posed by the lack of IRS guidance, the application of the tax benefit rule and varying state regulations. Dave emphasizes the importance of consistency in handling these refunds and advises practitioners to involve taxpayers in decision-making due to the inherent uncertainties and risks.   AICPA resources   FAQ on the Federal Taxation of State Income Tax Refunds for PTET Payments — FAQ guidance on the federal taxation of state income tax refunds for PTET payments. AICPA list of taxpayer and practitioner considerations for whether to elect into a state pass-through entity (PTE) tax — Various issues should be considered when deciding whether a taxpayer can, and should, elect into a state PTE tax. Pass-through Entity (PTE) Taxes States’ Legislation and Tax Authorities’ Information and Guidance — A state-by-state PTE matrix tracking and linking to legislative updates, guidance, as well as other relevant information. State and Local Tax (SALT) Roadmap and Resource Center — Browse the reference library for the latest guidance and tools to address your state and local tax needs including tax rates, due dates, nexus, PTE tax and more. Transcript April Walker: On today's podcast, listen to learn more about how to handle refunds related to the pass-through entity tax. Hello everyone and welcome to the AICPA's Tax Section Odyssey podcast, where we offer thought leadership on all things tax facing the profession. I'm April Walker, a Lead Manager from the Tax Section and I'm here today with a repeat guest, Dave Kirk. Dave's with National Tax at EY. He is the knower of a lot of things, but specifically today we're going to talk about PTET. Dave, let's start off with, I think when we chatted before, we talked about pass-through entity tax fun with that, we're delving into a very specific issue related to it. Let's first talk about the challenges. There are so many challenges around this, the lack of guidance around PTET, but today we're going to talk about refunds and there isn't guidance really. How has that impacted our practitioners? Dave Kirk: First of all, thanks for having me again. Being the leader of the PTET Task Force for the AICPA and having to deal with this for E&Y nationally, I've probably spent 500 hours of my life on this that I'm not getting back. It's just that each state is different. You could probably group states together. It usually requires a case-by-case analysis on how the deduction was taken, when the deduction was taken, and how much money the taxpayer is getting back. The [IRS] Notice 2020-75 only talked about taking the deduction. There was not one word in that notice talking about refunds. You're right, April, there is no formal guidance from the IRS on PTET refunds. But this is also not the first time in US history where a state government has given money back to a taxpayer. Our federal tax system, as we currently know, it has only been around for 110 years or so. We do have guidance scattered throughout that last century of payments of taxes, deductions for taxes and recoveries. You might call it the common law of refunds that we would use in the absence of anything specific coming out of the government on how to deal with this. Walker: Tax benefit rule, right? It's been around for a little bit. Kirk: Yeah. There's two aspects of the tax benefit rule. There's the exclusionary aspect of it, and that's been codified about 40 years ago into Sec. 111 of the code. Then there's also the inclusionary aspect which kind of says, hey, you got a benefit for a payment back in a prior year and you have got that payment returned. That should be something, that should be Sec. 61, gross income. But where the complexity arises is, first of all, you can tell whether something is taxable or not taxable based on whether you got a benefit for it in a prior year. Okay, great. That's relatively straightforward, and I say relative with some emphasis there. But then you'd go down a very slippery slope really quick once you do determine that a PTET refund is taxable, because then you have to ask yourself, what characteristics does that taxable refund have? That is a morass that I don't think that the government ever really envisioned. I'm not envisioning any sort of guidance coming out of the government within the next 12 months on this. Walker: The last count, we have 50 states. Like you said, you can group them maybe, but each state was allowed with the IRS notice to develop their own regime which causes all kinds of fun. Which again, we won't get into specifically today. But like you said, it seems like we could the tax benefit rule and thoughts around that, or how we are going to try to provide some assistance to you with a resource that's been developed. You mentioned that you are the Chair of the AICPA Task Force for PTET. We thank you so much for all the things you do for the AICPA. In doing that, you guys have developed some really helpful FAQs around different nuances, some examples or some summary activities that can happen. Let's provide our listeners with some of the key takeaways from those FAQs. Kirk: First, states matter, and who's getting the refund matters. If you're an S corp and let's just keep this simple that you have at dentist that owns an S corp. That S corp makes $1 million and it owes PTET at the S corp level of say, $80,000. What you do assuming cash basis and assuming you pay the exact amount of PTET on December 31st, that you can deduct it. Your K-1 line 1 should be $920,000. You are going to get a credit on your local state return of $80,000. In a vacuum, you should not have a state liability equal to or greater than or less than the $80,000. In a perfect world, that's how the system works, and that's probably about as complicated as the system was ever supposed to be in the eyes of the IRS. But you know that no one ever hits their tax liability at 100 percent. You might hit by 99, 98% or 101 or 102%, but you're never exactly on the dollar. First is the S-corp. If you thought that you owed $80,000 and you made that payment in December of 2023. Cash basis taxpayer, you reduced your K1 income by the $80,000. But when you get around to filing your return and you only owe $79,000, when the S-corp files the PTET return, the S-corp is overpaid $1,000. That should be income back to the S-corp because in 2023 they deducted 80,000. They only should have deducted 79k and so they get it back. In a vacuum, next year, I'm going to have $1,000 of income on my K1 that I wouldn't have otherwise had if I wasn't in this PTE regime. Simple. Now if I deducted it on the front page of the return because I'm just offsetting my dental practice income or whatever it is, that PTET payment is no different than rents or salaries or insurance or whatever it is. Ok fine. So when I pick it up, that $1,000 refund in the next year, that should also be similar to my dental practice income, it's simply reversing a deduction. If that amount is, if I say for example, reduced passive income, maybe I'm a part owner of a dental practice that I don't practice anymore and I'm passive. Then that should come through as passive income to me because last year the deduction was probably a passive deduction. Or if I was in a business that generates QBI, qualified business income, under 199A and I deducted PTET against it last year. If it reverses, then it feels like the right answer should be it's 199A income, good QBI when I pick up my refund. But that is where the inclusionary aspect of the common law tax benefit rule would come into play. You think about it in the same way of self-employment income. Is if a partnership that you were in your subject to self-employment income on the Line 1 and your PTET deduction reduced Line 1, and that amount is refunded to the partnership, or some portion of that was refunded back to the partnership in year 2, that should probably be self-employment income. Just because the deduction reduces self-employment, you'd think that the income should increase self-employment. That's at the entity level. But then you have to think, going back to my original example, my dental practice made a million dollars and paid $80,000 of PTET. I turn around and I file my personal return and because of credits or dependent exemptions or whatever it is, I owe only $76,000 on my 1040, on state version of my 1040. I'm going to get $4,000 back from the state. Then the question is, what is that? I first start with the concept of I have $4,000 and so Section 61 says that's income, I'll live with that. Then I go to Sec. 111 and said, do I have a benefit from a prior year or do I not? If I don't have a benefit in a prior year, then this income shouldn't be income so it would probably be excluded by [Sec.] 111. But because they took the $4,000 of a deduction on the front page of the 1120-S, it reduced my K1 number. I did get a benefit even if I had an NOL that I could use and I didn't pay any tax on a prior year. It just means I used less NOL. Or that if it was passive income and I had passive losses that would be able to offset, but it would still be income to me.I still got a benefit even though I had other personal attributes that minimized that income, it would still be income. It's much harder though, to think about, look, I am getting this refund and should a state refund be QBI? Because it came from the state, it didn't come from the entity like in the first part of our discussion, should it be self-employment income? That's never been the case before that a state tax refund is self-employment income. That's just weird because itemized deductions for state taxes were never self-employment because you'd never got to deduct them from self-employment. You have all of these character questions. But that is simple when you're looking at the individual and the entity in a vacuum, and that's where we started that I'm a dentist, I own 100 percent of an S-corp and that's all I have. But as soon as I start injecting other things such as a spouse with W2 withholding or estimated payments that are made at my 1040 level or composite returns that I'm filing in other states and getting out-of-state tax credits on my local return. That gives rise to the question of if I get money back from the state, is it really the PTE credit that I am getting back or am I getting back my estimated payments? Or am I getting back my W-2 withholding or my spouse's W-2 withholding? That part, what is it, is a question that we've never really had to wrestle with in the last 100 years because taxes were always deductible in prior years, prior to TCJA. Yes, we had the AMT system and everyone knew how to do that calculation of how much of the taxes puts you in an AMT and did you even get a benefit at all? But the composite taxes, the withholding taxes, estimated payments, they were all treated the same. But now you have this special class of tax credit, deemed tax payment, whatever you want to call it, that, is almost like a hydra with multiple heads of, what is it? In the FAQs, basically say, "Look, we think that absent any guidance specifying that certain items come first, that you pick a method and you stick with it year over year." A duty of consistency. If you want to take the position that every dollar of refund first comes from estimates and withholdings. Basically your Schedule A, taxes that are capped at 10K. Then chances are those coming back to you will not be taxable because you capped out at the 10K and you never got a benefit under the tax benefit rule. Another alternative is to say that the PTE credit comes back first, but that would almost certainly be taxable if it was deducted on Schedule E or are embedded in Line 1 of a K-1. That's probably not very common for people to take that position. But the other one would be, look, if you have $80,000 of PTET credit and you have 20,000 of withholding than $0.80 of every dollar coming back could be taxable and 20% would be associated with the withholdings or whatnot. Maybe that would not be taxable. That would be like a pro rata method. But absent guidance, it's Choose Your Own Adventure. Just don't get eaten by the dragon at the end. But that's what we're instructing our folks inside of E&Y is to just be consistent and let the taxpayer in on the discussion. Don't make unilateral decisions on their behalf. And let them know that there is uncertainty, there is risk, and that the IRS may disagree on taking estimates first and whatnot. That they should to the extent that they are running into this problem. That if I know that my PTET is being overpaid at my partnership or S corporation level, then I should take corrective measure at my personal level either, by reducing estimates or trying to ratchet down withholding of my spouse on her W2 or his W2 to try to make sure that you're not overpaying too much because you're still giving interest-free loans to your state and local governments and that still doesn't make any sense. Walker: That's a great summary of what's included and the different situations that we go through [in the FAQs]. But consistency, I think, is a good rule. Also, if we note the fact that the IRS hasn't and likely will not put out any guidance on this. I think it's really interesting that here we are in the middle of 2024 and TCJA is scheduled to sunset at the end of 2025 and we're dealing with this. It may become a moot point, but it's still very important that people are just really wrestling with this very complex issue and without guidance, it's hard to make a plan. Kirk: I think the IRS is keeping their fingers crossed, that the SALT cap expires and the TCJA and PTE regimes will just expire and everyone will go back to itemized deductions. I'm not sure that's in the cards, because even if the SALT cap goes away and that itemized deductions are fully allowed for taxes, just like was in pre-TCJA land. The PTET regime is still beneficial from an AMT perspective. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that you're going to have maybe state societies and taxpayers and the likes start lobbying their state governments in the next year to extend the PTE regime past 2025, make it permanent. Because of the AMT benefit, regardless of what happens in Congress on the cap. Whether cap goes away, cap goes up, cap stays where it is, whatever. Because the people on the coasts, the high-net-worth individuals on the coast and in the highest tax states, California, Oregon, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts. You all know where you are, Illinois, whatever, that taxes and 2% miscellaneous were the ones that put you in AMT to start with. The fact that you could get their local governments to go along with this, I don't think that this topic is going away for taxpayers or the IRS. I think that both sides, both taxpayers and the IRS need to I would say wake up to this. This is something that's in my mind here to stay for the long term. Walker: I don't know if that's good news or bad news. I'm not sure how I feel about that. It is news. That's what we're here, is to let people know. Here's something you need to not bury your head in the sand about. Any other final thoughts as we're wrapping up? Dave, any advice? Kirk: Advice is that it is a lot more complicated than people appreciate. That I know I've heard certain preparers, usually it's smaller firms, really small. Just say that this stuff it's not taxable if the state doesn't give you a 1099-G. The 1099-G has nothing to do with whether something is taxable or not. The taxability of something landing in a checking account, direct deposit, or via check. The default position is it's taxable unless you can tell me why it's not. That's always been the case in the code. I think that's the way people need to approach it. Start with taxable and let's figure out a way for it not to be. Walker: Great. That's good final advice for everyone. Dave, in closing on these podcasts you've been with me before, but I like to think about us taking a journey. We're the Tax Section Odyssey, we're taking a journey toward a better profession. But I also like to hear about my guest other journeys outside of the world of tax. I do have some insider information — I know you were just on a trip, do you want to share something about that. How did that go? Kirk: We just got back a couple of days back from 16 days in Alaska. We flew into Fairbanks, took the train down to Denali and then carried on down to Anchorage, and then got on a ship and made it all the way down to Vancouver. Walker: Nice. Kirk: I expected a lot of strange things to happen, maybe be chased by a moose or something like that. But what I didn't anticipate is when I took the train from Fairbanks down to Denali, that a spark shot off the train and started a forest fire at the entrance of Denali. Within two hours of us getting to the entrance to the park, the forest fire had spread to such a point where it burned all the power lines and the park had been is now I think just opening up after being closed for about two weeks. Ironically, I've been to the entrance point of Denali twice in my life and I've never actually been able to make it into the park. That gives me a reason for a third time to return to the interior of Alaska. Walker: Yes. I like your positivity there, rather than taking it as maybe you don't need to go back to Alaska. I don't know. I hope you were able to experience some of the loveliness of Alaska even though you weren't able to get into Denali. Kirk: Oh, it's beautiful. For those that like the outdoors. It truly is a magical place. Walker: Wonderful. Thank you again so much, Dave. I hope this was helpful and good information for our listeners. It certainly was for me. Kirk: Thank you for having me again, do it anytime. Walker: Thanks. Again, this is April Walker from the AICPA Tax Section. This community is your go-to source for technical guidance and resources designed especially for CPA tax practitioners like you in mind. This is a podcast from AICPA and CIMA together as the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants. You can find us and listen wherever you find your podcasts and please follow us so you don't miss an episode. If you already follow us, thank you so much and please feel free to share with a like-minded friend. You can also find us at aicpa-cima.com/tax, and find our other Odyssey episodes, as well as getting access to the resources mentioned during this episode, specifically the FAQs that were the focus of our conversation today. Thank you for listening. Keep your finger on the pulse of the dynamic and evolving tax landscape with insights from tax thought leaders in the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section Odyssey podcast includes a digest of tax developments, trending issues and practice management tips that you need to be aware of to elevate your professional development and your firm practices. This resource is part of the robust tax resource library available from the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section is your go-to home base for staying up to date on the latest tax developments and providing the edge you need for upskilling your professional development. 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If you're advising businesses on their pending ERC claims, this is a must-listen for practical guidance on navigating the process and setting the right expectations.   Tune in to hear Chris Wittich and Dan Chodan, two experts immersed in Employee Retention Credit (ERC) matters for four years, discuss the IRS's upcoming actions for sorting and processing pending ERC claims by risk level. High-risk claims are likely to be denied, medium-risk claims require more detailed review, and low-risk claims will be processed starting soon. The IRS moratorium on processing claims filed after September 14, 2023, is still in place.   Businesses with pending ERC claims are facing critical choices about amending income tax returns due to statute limitations. The speakers advise open communication with clients about the limited options available and the importance of understanding the ethical responsibilities as tax preparers. Based on the current backlog at the IRS for ERC claims, it is important to manage client’s expectations around the processing time as the impact of potential changes in legislation.   Related resources  Previous Tax Section Odyssey episodes discussing the Employee Retention Credit (ERC): ·       Sifting through ERC questions | Tax Section Odyssey ·       ERC suspended: What happens next | Tax Section Odyssey ·       Employee retention credit and professional responsibilities | Tax Section Odyssey ERC guidance and resources — The rules to be eligible to take this refundable payroll tax credit are complex. This AICPA resource library will help you understand both the retroactive 2020 credit and the 2021 credit. Employee Retention Credit (ERC): Fact or Fiction? — Use this guide to educate yourself and others on common misconceptions surrounding the ERC. Employee Retention Credit Decision Tree — Download the ERC decision tree to help you with various decision points when working with clients to protect yourself/your firm from significant risk.   IRS resources   ·       IR-2024-169 — IRS news release on June 20, 2024, discussing the next stage of ERC work ·       IR-2023-169 — IRS news release on Sept. 14, 2023, ordering the immediate stop to new ERC claim processing. ·       IRS ERC resource center — IRS hub for ERC information, including links to guidance, FAQs and the latest news.   Transcript April Walker: On today's podcast, we're going to talk about the IRS's next steps for ERC and what that means for you. Hello everyone, and welcome to the AICPA's Tax Section, Odyssey podcast, where we offer thought leadership on all things tax facing the profession. I'm April Walker, a lead manager from the Tax Section, and I'm here today with two repeat guests. I'm happy to have with me, Chris Wittich. He is also known as @ravenoustiger. He is a partner at Boyum Barenscheer in Minnesota. I'm also delighted to have Dan Chodan. Dan is a tax partner at Trout CPA in Pennsylvania. Welcome to the both of you. Dan Chodan: Thanks for having us. April Walker: Chris, let's set the stage for what we know now. We're recording on July 2. [Let’s talk about] what we recently heard from the IRS late last week and what we know now about the IRS processing of claims or what they're telling us. Chris Wittich: On June 20th, IRS had a press release, and there was a lot of good information in there, the first time in quite awhile. I think we've gotten some insight as to what they're doing with these ERC claims. Right off the bat, they differentiate, and they say they're putting claims in three different buckets, and it certainly falls in the red, yellow and green. In my mind, the red category, the IRS is saying between 10-20% of the claims fall into what they describe as the highest risk group. They've said that a lot of these are going to be just straight-up denied in the coming weeks, so that red they're just seeing these claims. They're looking at them. They're saying these are not good claims at all. I would suspect those are like the employees don't exist, the businesses don't exist. They're claiming more in credits than they paid in wages, stuff like that. The IRS is saying 10-20% of all the claims they have, I would expect to get adjusted or denied entirely, and they're going to start working on that soon. The next category is the biggest category, and that's the yellow, as I would describe it. So they're saying between 60 and 70% of claims show an unacceptable level of risk. That's their term, not mine. That's two-thirds of the claims. They think the risk is so high that it's unacceptable and we're not exactly sure what factors they're using to determine that, but in their own words, they're going to be doing more thorough reviews, compliance reviews of those claims. Which again, that's the vast majority of the claims. The third category is a green zone. They're saying between 10 and 20% of the claims show a low-risk, and they don't say how they determined it, but you can reasonably assume that the claims are well within the payroll metrics. They might be particularly at-risk industries. A restaurant is likely to be a lower risk claim than a law firm. Based on industry or the size of the claim, or the number of quarters, they're saying, well, 10-20% of these look like they're going to be good claims, and so they intend to start processing them. It remains to be seen how quickly they really process the claims, but at least they're acknowledging that a portion of these are good claims and we're going to start getting them out. For those three buckets, the other caveat here is those are the claims filed prior to the moratorium. They haven't looked at the claims filed after the moratorium. So, those three buckets, those are just the claims they had prior to September 2023. April Walker: It's important to note, because we get this question quite a bit, the moratorium means they are not processing those claims. It does not mean that they're not accepting them. If you feel you have a good claim. We're going to get more into the statute discussion a little bit later. [I’m really not talking specifially] about statute on income tax return, but there's also a statute issue with the ERC claim itself. Again, we'll talk about how you're talking to your client about the [statutes], but the moratorium does not mean you cannot file, it just means they are not processing. Chris Wittich: The moratorium. I always explain it to clients, like you can send in your claim. The IRS will take your claim and put it on a shelf, and they promise that someday in the future they will start looking at the stuff on the shelf, and they haven't done that yet. If you have a good claim submit it, it goes on the shelf, the IRS will get to it down the road. April Walker: That's what the IRS told us, which is important to set the stage. Chris, based on this information from the IRS, what advice are you giving to businesses who are waiting? I guess there are the buckets – from what the IRS said. There's also buckets of where people are in this claim process. Walk us through a little bit about how you're sharing with your clients about expectations, I think is an important word. Chris Wittich: So for the people who filed prior to the moratorium, and we have lots of people we helped in the summer of 2023, very few, if any, of them have seen actual checks or credits getting processed. I think now what we can tell people is the IRS is going to start processing those. If you filed in the summer of 2023 and you're a low-risk claim, I would expect or hope to get processing in the next six months. For those people, I am saying, hey, it's been slow. It's been maybe 12 months and you haven't seen anything, but we're very hopeful that you will get processed before the end of the year. For the people who filed during the moratorium, and certainly we've had a bunch of those. Originally we didn't know how long the moratorium would last. Maybe it was only going to be a couple of months. My advice to them now is that I fully expect the moratorium to last until April of 2025. I think if you read in-between the lines of what the IRS is saying, this moratorium is going nowhere anytime soon. If you filed in October 2023, just after the moratorium, I'm telling them, hey, that claim is likely to sit on the shelf at the IRS until April 2025, then they're going to process them in the order they were received. Late 2025 or sometime in 2026 is my realistic expectation for when those claims will get processed. For the people who are questioning their claims, I would remind them that the withdrawal process is still available, it's still open. You can also just file a regular amended payroll tax return to undo or modify or payback your portion of a claim, if you think it is no longer a claim you want to make. Then for people who have potentially made bad claims, I would say the IRS has hinted at a second voluntary disclosure program (VDP). It's not out yet. When it comes out, the terms won't be as generous as the first time around, but there's a decent chance that a second voluntary disclosure is coming down the road so that's how I look at it. You got the good claims from before the moratorium, the good claims during the moratorium and then you've got withdrawal, regular amendment and voluntary disclosure as the options to deal with bad claims. Dan Chodan: If I can jump in there about the VDP. I think the comment has been that they were going to make that decision pretty soon. I think this month so that we should hear something on that. Anybody that might be thinking about doing it, I'd say at least hold off through the summer before making those decisions because it sounds very likely that they're going to come at least come out with something or say that they're not. One way or another, I think the IRS already hinted at that, but you bring up a really good point there Chris, and the IRS said it in this release. They are really concerned about lifting the moratorium and what that would do for the next wave of promoters, pushing for another gold rush, I think is the term that's used there. That's really the big push of the moratorium itself. To shock the system of the outfits that were doing heavy promotion. I think it's been largely successful. You got to give the IRS credit. They can't necessarily deal with a significant volume that was out there. It went from 50-60,000 claims a week. You're recently looking like closer to 12k a week that they are receiving. And that's because of this moratorium and then because you can't file 2020 claims anymore. Because after the bill with the January 31st cutoff potentially was out there, that really caused a push, for a lot of reasons, but the moratorium being the primary one. And just to reiterate what you said with that in mind, the IRS saying they want to responsibly lift the moratorium, and that absolutely means it's not going to be before there'll be any chance that funds would go out and be used for further promotion. They've said that explicitly in this. Those hoping that it would have been through the end of '23, what the first timeline could have been and it'd be lifted soon. It's certainly dragged on of course, till now and I expect that it's going to at least double in time here through next year, if not more. While they try to get Congress to act, they want Congress to pass that ERC provision that was in that bill, that didn't make it to law yet. But they want that passed in standalone or tucked into something else. That's what IRS is lobbying for. It's certainly interesting, but I am maybe a little more pessimistic on the timeline. Six months, I'd love to see something happening. But I've been telling people we're in uncharted waters and we have seen some processing. It's been a trickle during the moratorium of the pre moratorium claims getting paid. I think there's a lot in this release, but that's basically going to continue. What we've seen is the same as what it's going to be going forward. It's going to be a very slow rate and it's a very small amount. But we are saying that most all of these claims have a very high risk of being improper and the low-risk claisorryms are so small. How do you know which bucket they've put you into? You just can't expect anything. What I'm telling clients is do what the IRS is telling you to do here. You've got to wait and don't expect anything, don't spend this money in advance. If you do have a hardship case, it's been over a year. Those are the taxpayer advocate cases that can be filed and there's been success there. We've seen that for those funds that have sat around for a long time, but if it's a true hardship case that can be made, still don't consider that a guarantee, but at least you can make those cases through taxpayer advocate. That's an action that can be taken, but for those that can't make the hardship cases, it's a sit around, waiting game for very large claims that are solid. Refund litigation is part of the conversation too through the court proceedings there, but not something that the average taxpayer would be considering. Just due to the costs and the timeline and there is scrutiny to that. It isn't going to be all claims, it's just going to be the best ones and the biggest ones and those willing to fight that process. No guarantee that it will mean it's a faster process than if you had left yourself from the traditional route. Those are just the conversations around what are we doing at this point. Just to add some more color to that plan. April Walker: That's great. Dan, Thanks. I was just thinking as you were talking. Again, we do not know anything about whether this is true or not, but truly, if they push the moratorium until next spring of 2025, maybe I just had a light bulb moment, That will be the end of when 2021 claims can be filed. But I guess even more important, if there is a legitimate claim, back to our original point, can still be filed. They're put on that proverbial shelf that Chris is talking about, but it sounds and they certainly alluded to that opening up the moratorium seems like an opportunity. Dan Chodan: We should mention April [15 deadline] there. I always have to layer that with a lot of caution at this stage because that January 31st date could stick at some point. While I would say you can file them today, there's no guarantee. If the messaging continues the way that it's going, it could be another date. It could be any date. It could stick with January 31st. All these claims on the moratorium, have been sitting on the shelf. It could go all the way back to the beginning of the moratorium. that's more revenue for them in Congress to go spend somewhere else. It's not to say that you don't file if you have a legitimate claim, but you just have to be aware that there's absolutely a risk at play that this could be changed and could be changed retroactively to make sure we highlight that. April Walker: Great point and things you need to be talking about with your clients as you're thinking about it as a business yourself filing this claim. I want to talk about any experiences you've had, just in general, with not necessarily the processes and the claims, but thinking about have you had a lot of [IRS] examination communication. What's your experience been with your current claims that you have in the hopper? Chris Wittich: I've seen just a wide variety, I would say, of issues or notices related to these. Certainly, had a couple of audits, but still that's a small number. We have other issues where four of the quarters got processed, but not the other two. You call the IRS, try figure out what happened, and you get the runaround, you just can't get a straight answer. We've had notices where the IRS denies the claim because they say you didn't pay any wages, only to discover that, yes, of course, they paid wages, but the IRS lost all the payroll tax documentation; they don't have the W-2s, a lot of little one-off issues, I would say that are all over the place and it has to do with these things. A lot of these things were filed on paper, the records aren't necessarily that great. I'm sure that I have clients in what they think is the highest risk category, and they're there because they lost the W-2s, and so they think a client made a claim of $100,000, but don't have a single person on payroll. But yes, they do have people on payroll, we have all the payroll tax reports, we have all the proofs that W-2s were issued. IRS just isn't matching that up, necessarily. Just lots of issues, but they're all over the place. I haven't seen anything, at least recently that's been very systemic or consistent. My advice is always trying to confirm that the IRS has your claims. Certainly, certified mail was a good way to do that, but some clients didn't do that, so you can call the IRS and at least confirm that they received it and then deal with those one-off issues as they come. April Walker: Are you doing that on the PPS line? Chris Wittich: Yeah. We've used the PPS line for the most part, you certainly need a power of attorney to do that. Some clients just call themselves and they're calling the regular IRS line, that's so hit or miss, as to what kind of service you're going to get, but it's available just to call and confirm that they have it. April Walker: We do get that question a decent amount. Dan, do you have any thoughts to share? Dan Chodan: Sure. Yeah, I'd add to that. Once you have that power of attorney, you can get the 941 transcripts. It's going to give you the same information as a phone call, they'll tell you the date received, and once it's paid, otherwise, no updates in the process, which is just mind-boggling, of course, when he tried to explain that to a taxpayer that wow, how do I not know the status? Unfortunately, everybody's in the same boat, all we can do is prove receipt and then show when the payments are made, and those transcripts are great. As far as what I've been seeing, I've seen it all across the board just as Chris has mentioned here, there's inconsistency as I talk to other professionals, the enforcement of this is all over the map, some have moved very quickly, some really drag on, some agents are very well-versed in the process, some are missing things that are needing to be explained the rules, may be and helped through the process is a wide breath in that and what's going on, but it doesn't seem to be in a large volume. There's a team that's doing these in examinations and the processing is at a trickle, it's not a large group, and neither of those areas. Something's going to have to change going forward while the IRS puts more resources behind enforcement. Will there be a larger enforcement window authorized by Congress that's being asked for in these bills? Now at some point, the rate of processing has to pick up or it's just going to take years and years for the backlog to be cleared on all these things. There's more to come on what's going to happen, but again, is it to expect some seismic the change in the next six months or even to a year, it's probably not it, but there'll be some change on that front. There has to be given the IRS rhetoric around enforcement and then also just there will be more of a ground swell eventually that we have to do something with all these claims sitting on a shelf. April Walker: I'd like to pivot a little bit to another big question we get all the time, and this is the segment I'd like to call There are no good answers to these questions". I want to talk about them [though] and let's walk through where you guys stand with them. So statute of limitations and income tax returns. Lots of concerns here, especially as we talked about with all the delays. With delays of running out of statute for these income tax returns where either amended returns have already happened or need to happen. Let's break it down a little bit. There are businesses who haven't received their refunds, their claim has not been processed. You have told them. I know the two of you have told them, no question, they need to amend their income tax return for the period of the ERC claim, and statutes either have already run or getting ready to run. Chris, talk a little bit about talking points here. What you're talking with your clients about, trying to help them understand where they are with this. Chris Wittich: Yeah, there's definitely no good answers, and I think just being honest with the clients and telling them that upfront. The biggest thing is to discuss it with them, make sure they're aware, and then let them choose which bad choice they want to make. But the timing of the income tax statutes, they are going to close, and especially with this recent announcement, we basically know that these moratorium claims are not going to get processed before the statute closes, lots of claims or high risk, so they're not as likely to get processed before these statutes close. A lot of the 2020 statutes are probably already closed, 2021 will go next year. A lot of the time you're left with a choice which is pay tax, which you simply cannot afford to pay because you have not received the money, or let the statute run and potentially do it after the statute, which is not a good feeling, and neither of those is attractive. The third common scenario is I paid my tax already, but now my claim has been sitting for 18 months and I'm worried I'm not going to get all of it. So do I push back to those same two options again, do I amend now to take the income back out? And I'm left with the same two choices of when to pay the tax or to do it late, or do I look at some protective claim to hopefully protect me if the IRS adjusts my claim down, then I want to be able to get a refund of the income taxes, which I've already paid. I think all of those scenarios are lousy choices for a taxpayer to make. I see my role is just making sure they know all of the lousy choices available to them, and it's going to depend on their financial situation. Sometimes you simply cannot afford to pay the tax, that's just not a choice, if I'm going go bankrupt by paying the tax, I guess we're not choosing that option. So making them aware. I think it would certainly be a consideration as to how high a risk a claim do you think they have. Some claims are based on gross receipts decline that's very obvious, and all the calculations are done correctly. Other claims are based on government orders and trying to figure out what a more than nominal impact is, and there's some question as to maybe a grouping or something like that. Some claims are inherently going to seem like they're higher risk and making sure the clients are aware of that, and then just letting them go with one of these lousy options. I wish I had something better to tell them. It's kind of a depressing conversation to have with people, but it's one that you don't want to avoid because that is the worst outcome. Because if you don't talk to them about it. Dan Chodan: We can't avoid it, we need to make the recommendation to the client. Here's what the rules are, you've made the claim, here's what it is. We have to advise the rules, but we can't force someone to amend either, we have to meet our duty in that and there's the reality of their situations that will come into play and their decision. But we have to do our end of things. What will be interesting is the proposed bill that was out there to change some things on the ERC would align the income tax statute with the enforcement. There could be relief on some of this for the ones that get thrown out later, may at least not have that double whammy of inability to get the income tax back, so there may be some relief for those bad cases at some point. But right now, before these statutes run, 2020, maybe closed, 21 is still open for sure. Those ones that could be risky, I'd have those conversations. Also on our end, if we know clients that have a shaky one, they may be in a position where they don't want to wonder what Congress will do in the future, will they give us this relief or not? They may look to get that cash back on the income tax side now and then redo this in the future as needed. But at least you can lock in if you know that you're in a really sticky spot, so that's something to consider. April Walker: I told you that this was the section of no-good news and that's not generally how I roll. I generally like to provide bright light and positivity, but this is a tough one. But I think this is where you need to show that you're an advisor and show your value even if you're coming with not a lot of great news. All right, as we're wrapping up, let's see, I'll start with you, Dan. Is there any final thoughts or takeaways that you'd like to leave our listeners with today? Dan Chodan: Sure. This is a very interesting release that pushed us to have this conversation today. I think it's very telling, but also at the end of the day, we're in the same spot. The IRS has the situation where it wants it. The advertisements have disappeared. The deluge of claims is way less. It's not that they're without problems, but the IRS has been immensely successful on this already, so you got to give them some credit. This release gives us a lot of information, but when you look at it, it means what we've been experiencing is probably going to continue. We're probably going to get another doubling of the experience we've had to this point. The fact that they say the vast majority of these show risk of being inproper just really supports what has been seen, what they've been worried about all along, and is also just echoed in the compliance efforts. They said two billion dollars to date in compliance through the VDP, through withdrawal and enforcement efforts. That's a huge number. Not a huge number to the total of the program. But when you think about, that means that's what's been accomplished so far, so how much more is out there if that's what has been withdrawn, if that's what has been enforced to date, even with limited resources and small amount of audits there's a much bigger pool and it speaks to the fear and the risks that's out there. A lot more to come. If there's no congressional action at all related to this program and everything just stays as is going forward, I'd be surprised. Something's going to happen in some form, even if it's not exactly what was out there in the last proposed bill. I feel like this is going to come in some way, shape, or form in the next couple of years, and the IRS will have more releases. There'll be more twists and turns on this. More to come, unfortunately though, for those that aren't in a spot to get a taxpayer advocate referral and have a hardship claim to push this. I think you're just along for the ride until you're in that real need, unless you're going to go that refund litigation route, you're just going to have to be along for the ride here, unfortunately. A lot of other tough conversations we've been having for a while now are just going to be continuing, that we're going to have to wait and see. April Walker: Thanks, Dan. All right. Chris, what's your send-off thoughts for us? Chris Wittich: I would agree with everything Dan said. I guess I would just wrap it all the way back to the discussion that we had in April of 2023. I'd encourage you to circle back. In April 2023, we talked about the IRS OPR announcement. We talked through the Circular 230 issues, the SSTS issues, what are the ethical responsibilities of a tax preparer of a CPA. I would cross-reference those conversations with where we're at today. You want to advise your client of the rules. You want to be sure you know what the IRS is saying currently. But I would cross-reference, we got this new press release, there's some new information in there. They're clearly targeting these bad claims, so what do we do about the bad claims? There's a few solutions available now, but I also need to understand my ethical responsibility. I'm sure it'll be linked, but I would go back and take a listen to that with this new press release in top of mind. April Walker: Yes. That is exactly right. That's when we were together last to record talking about that, and none of that conversation is out of date. We're in a different place with claims, but all of that conversation is very relevant. Now, you're not going to get out of my fun question. Even though you've been with me before, you still have to answer these questions. I like to think about us taking a journey together towards a better profession. Always journeying toward that. Chris, what journeys are you taking outside of tax? I think you're getting ready a month or so to have baby number 2. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Where are you headed this summer? Chris Wittich: With a baby on the way, travel plans are limited. These days our travel plans consist of going to grandma's house or going to the other grandma's house. About 20 minutes in either direction is our maximum travel distance, but excited too. I'll be at National Tax in November. I'll be in DC. April Walker: That's fun travel, and there'll be some good hotel sleeping for the tiger. Dan, you don't have the tiny little ones running around, so hopefully you got some fun travel on the agenda. Dan Chodan: We're going to get them back to the beach this summer. They'll be really excited for that. But my favorite travel this year was a bucket list item for my wife. It was our 10-year anniversary. She always wanted to go to Nashville. Big country music fan. That was a great time. We did that. Just got back. I'll admit country music isn't all that bad after being steeped in a little more of it, so I'm coming along to it. April Walker: Okay. It's not it's not my favorite either, but Nashville is quite a fun town, so glad you were. And that was a without-kids trip? Dan Chodan: Yeah. April Walker: Those are always the best. Love the kids. Love them. You all are great. But so nice to be having adulting trip. Chris, maybe one day. Dan Chodan: Different kind of fun. April Walker: Exactly. Thank you guys so much for sitting down with me. I think this was a great important conversation. In the next stage, I feel sure we're going to talk again, so look forward to that. Again, this is April Walker from the AICPA Tax Section. This community is your go-to source for technical guidance and resources designed especially for CPA tax practitioners like you in mind. This is a podcast from AICPA and CIMA together as the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants. You can find us wherever you listen to your podcast and we encourage you to follow us so you don't miss an episode. If you already follow us, thank you so much and please feel free to share with a like-minded friend. You can also find us at aicpa-cima.com/tax, and find our other episodes, as well as resources mentioned in this episode as well as linked back to other podcast episodes as we discussed. Thank you so much for listening and stay cool everybody. Keep your finger on the pulse of the dynamic and evolving tax landscape with insights from tax thought leaders in the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section Odyssey podcast includes a digest of tax developments, trending issues and practice management tips that you need to be aware of to elevate your professional development and your firm practices. This resource is part of the robust tax resource library available from the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section is your go-to home base for staying up to date on the latest tax developments and providing the edge you need for upskilling your professional development. If you’re not already a member, consider joining this prestigious community of your tax peers. You’ll get free CPE, access to rich technical content such as our Annual Tax Compliance Kit, a weekly member newsletter and a digital subscription to The Tax Adviser.

In this joint episode, Neil Amato, host of the JOA podcast and Melanie Lauridsen, VP of Tax Policy and Advocacy for the AICPA discuss recent updates on three key tax topics: the Employee Retention Credit (ERC), Beneficial Ownership Information (BOI) reporting, and a member survey about IRS performance during tax season. Melanie highlights the IRS’s recent actions and proposed regulations regarding ERC, the implications of BOI reporting requirements, and the mixed feedback from AICPA members on IRS service improvements.   AICPA resources AICPA Employee retention credit guidance and resources — Access resources providing the latest updates on the employee retention credit (ERC). Beneficial ownership information (BOI) reporting resource center — Access resources to learn about the beneficial ownership information reporting requirement under FinCEN’s Corporate Transparency Act (CTA). Transcript Neil Amato: Welcome back to the Journal of Accountancy podcast. This is Neil Amato with the JofA. I'm joined again by Melanie Lauridsen, Vice President–Tax Policy & Advocacy for the AICPA. This is a special collaboration episode between the JofA podcast and the Tax Section Odyssey podcast. Again, welcome back. Melanie Lauridsen is our guest. She is a repeat guest. Melanie, today, as we record, it's early July, and we're going to focus in particular on three topics: The employee retention credit or ERC, beneficial ownership information reporting or BOI reporting, and then a member survey about IRS performance in tax season. It sounds like there have been more than a few updates recently on those topics. Let's dive in. ERC first: What's the latest from the IRS and what does that mean for our members? Melanie Lauridsen: Neil, thanks for having me back and yeah, there definitely have been some updates. As you know, the IRS did make an announcement around ERC and there are a couple of main points that they wanted to bring out. The first one is that the IRS made a call to action for Congress specifically asking to retroactively stop processing ERC claims. Also, the second piece of it is for Congress to extend the statute of limitations, but very narrowly defined, and it really is only for IRS assessments. In other words, if a taxpayer wants to make an amendment on their own free will, the statute of limitations will not be extended to that. But if the IRS notices something, says something, or is talking with you, and they recognize there needs to be an adjustment, then you can move forward and make that amendment. This has some implications, obviously, for our members, specifically the retroactive aspect of it. Now, they worded it differently because there's the Wyden-Smith bill, which we've talked about where that is retroactively stopping making valid ERC claims. In this case, it is that the IRS has no longer to process claims. It still has that same effect with members and does bring a little bit of nervousness to people. What that really means is that our members really need to have conversations with their clients if they have a valid ERC claim that hasn't been filed. [In] those conversations, people need to make it clear to the client that, yes, we can do the work, but there could be either the retroactively where the IRS stops processing claims, or there could be a bill that says that no longer, since a certain date, they don't have to accept claims. There's a little bit of risk associated with that. I think in the last time we spoke, we spoke about how there's an unknown around that date and therefore there's uncertainty around it, and clients need to be aware of the risks associated with that. The other important aspect of this announcement is where the IRS indicated that they have bucketed all these claims into three groups. There's the low-risk, medium-risk, and high-risk. The high-risk is where there are clear signs of error within the claim. Now, couple of things I need to make sure people understand. We don't know the criteria that the IRS is using to categorize people. They are not making that public. The other thing, too, is you cannot call the IRS and ask what bucket you're in. You just won't know. They can't help you on that front. What that means is if you're low-risk, the IRS is trying to process that claim as quickly as they can so that people can get the refunds back. If you're a high risk, they're trying to process that claim also as fast as they can to be able to deny those claims. Now, if you're medium-risk, that's the bucket where you're stuck and it will be a while before they actually look at those claims. Amato: That medium-risk bucket, do you recall: What's the approximate percentage that maybe that has? Lauridsen: I know that the IRS in their announcement gave a broader range of it, but in a conversation with IRS executives, I was told 57%. Amato: Good to know. Lauridsen: That's a big number. Amato: It is a big number. A lot of people still in limbo. And maybe lost in the shuffle: Can claims still be submitted during this period? Lauridsen: I get that question quite a bit, and there's a little bit of confusion around it. Some people think that claims, you can't file them. If you have a legitimate claim, you can still file it. The problem is centered around is the IRS going to process it or will it not be considered a valid claim? It goes back to those conversations that our members need to have with clients because we really just don't know what will happen with the claims. Amato: Does it surprise you the number that were labeled high-risk? Lauridsen: Not based on feedback that we've seen from our members and other external stakeholders. We do know that there were ERC mills out there promoting the claims and they would tell people "you absolutely qualify," when they absolutely didn't. We also know of some of our members where they flat out told the client "you don't qualify," but the ERC mills were telling them, "you do." Then they went off to the side to go get that claim because it was a lot of money for some of these people, and money was talking. Amato: Now, I guess also related to the ERC, on July 1 the IRS published some proposed regulations, so it's hot off the presses for us. What can you tell me about these proposed regs.? Lauridsen: The IRS did drop proposed regulations. These proposed regulations, they provide that the IRS will assess an underpayment of tax on any overpayment interest paid to the taxpayer on an erroneous ERC fund. In other words, not only would you need to pay back the overpayment of the interest portion that you received of a claim, but you would then also have interest penalties on top of it. One thing to note with the proposed regs. is it recognizes that the current regulations don't address the recapture of interest paid. They also note that the proposed regulations are to apply only to interest paid after the issuance of the proposed regulations, so not before. It's still very unclear as to the payments – what about the payments are already went out with or without the interest, and whether the IRS will attempt to recapture that interest? There's just still a lot of confusion around it. As we get more clarity, we will also provide that to our members. Amato: We will post some pertinent resources and also recent JofA coverage of this news and other news we mentioned. Melanie, I mentioned JofA resources, are there other resources that you'd like to recommend that maybe I'm not aware of? Lauridsen: Absolutely, Neil. The Tax Section Odyssey podcast will be doing a deeper dive around the questions that our members and their clients may have, and that should be posted around the same time as this podcast. (Editor's note: The episode Lauridsen mentioned is scheduled to publish the third week in July). Amato: Excellent. Now let's talk a little bit about BOI, beneficial ownership information, that reporting requirement. What's new on the BOI front? Lauridsen: There's quite a few different little updates here. But most recently [the] Maryland attorney general did actually provide and release an opinion on whether assistance by a CPA, with the beneficial ownership information reporting requirement of the Corporate Transparency Act, would constitute the unauthorized practice of law [UPL]. The Maryland attorney general made it very clear that the determination of UPL is fact-specific and that the opinion is only a guideline because, again, they have to take a look at each and every single case. Making clients aware of the BOI reporting requirements, guiding them through FinCEN's FAQs, through the compliance guide, helping [the client fill out] the BOI reporting form, guiding them through questions and answering questions for them — all of that is not considered unauthorized practice of law, according to the Maryland attorney general. If you were to fill out the report on behalf of a client without connecting with the client, there might be some issues there. Also, if there's just a lot of uncertainty and you know that legal knowledge is needed, a legal analysis to determine who a beneficial owner is, then you really should be turning to a lawyer to help you answer those questions. What I'm telling people is what we've been telling members all along, that a CPA will need to use their professional judgment when they engage or work with a client, and they'll have to determine where that line gets drawn as to whether or not a lawyer is needed. If it's a very complex business arrangement, most likely, you will want to include a lawyer. Again, this is all very in line with what we've been telling members, and it's also similar to what other states have said. But no other state has actually put it into writing, and there have been no other opinions. So far, Maryland is the first. Amato: Thanks for that update. Now, I understand also that I guess you're working with congressional staffers on a bill being drafted on BOI. What is that bill designed to do? Lauridsen: Actually, we are working with Congressman [William] Timmons' office and that bill actually works well with the Maryland opinion. The hope is that the bill would be able to avoid having to go to all the many multiple jurisdictions and the bill would be able to take care of all this all in one fell swoop. Specifically, the bill offers two aspects of relief which are a big concern to our members. Number one: The bill would offer a safe harbor for CPAs who do their due diligence when filing the BOI report on behalf of a client. In other words, if you get information, you have a conversation with the client, you do that due diligence, and yet the client gives you some fraudulent or false information, that you would not be held liable for that. The second piece that the bill does: The bill flat out states that services under the Corporate Transparency Act are not considered unauthorized practice of law. That really does go a long way in helping with the various states because when the federal [government] gives that nod, an indication, a lot of the states would most likely fall in line with that. Also, I do want to connect on the other types of work we're doing, not only with Congress. We have worked with a lot of external stakeholders and external coalition members because this concern is not a specific AICPA issue. This is a broader issue for all small business entities. Those two points that I brought up from the bill, those take care of the biggest pain points. But the third pain point really is the 30-day period to update the BOI report for an error or a beneficial owner's updated information. We're working with FinCEN on this since FinCEN actually has authority to make this change. Collectively, we are working with [Capitol] Hill, we are working with external stakeholders, and also FinCEN, and we've actually pulled everybody together to start having conversations so that there is awareness of what our pain points are, and what exactly we can do to be able to resolve a lot of these issues. FinCEN does have concerns, and they've made it very clear that this year they're focusing on awareness and not enforcement. Part of the reason is, so far, keep in mind we're seven months into the year, FinCEN has only received just over 2 million BOI reports. Remember, they're asking for 32.6 million, so awareness is definitely something of a concern for them. Stay tuned, there will be more to come. Amato: Thank you for that. You mentioned Congressman Timmons, that's, I guess, Rep. William Timmons from South Carolina, is that correct? Lauridsen: Correct. Amato: Great. Yes, we're talking about all these updates and potential changes and things that people want to do but currently the BOI reporting requirement, it remains the same for most small businesses, right? Lauridsen: It does and that's what makes it very scary. A lot of people have heard about the court cases where they said the Corporate Transparency Act was unconstitutional. But again, that only applied to a small sliver of the population of the members of [the National Small Business Association]. So, it's very confusing. The rules themselves are confusing. But unfortunately, everything remains the same, and people, unless you're one of those 23 exceptions, you still need to file. Amato: Moving on to IRS survey results. It's not an IRS survey, but it's a survey about the IRS. In our previous podcast, we discussed how the IRS perceived how the filing season went. The IRS released some data showing that they answered [88]% of calls that came to the IRS. The AICPA conducts an annual member survey immediately after the filing season to see how the members felt about IRS service. What does the feedback say, and is it in alignment with what the IRS said? Lauridsen: Oh, Neil. No, it's not in alignment with what the IRS said. This year, overall, the IRS did better than last year, which was also an improvement from [the] prior year. But even so, the bottom line is we are not at pre-pandemic levels. The IRS really has a long way to go for us to get to the service that we deserve. For example, the PPS line did show improvement from our members' perspective, but approximately 56% of our members were able to get through to the IRS on a consistent basis, while 29[%] of our members had hit-or-miss calls, and 15% of our members couldn't get through at all. The wait times, again, keep in mind the IRS is saying it's about three-minute wait time, those did improve. This year, only 28% of our respondents had to wait an hour or more, compared to 63% just two years ago. Yes, that's an improvement, but 28% of our members having to wait over an hour? That's a little bit painful there. The biggest pain point is the quality of service our members are getting. Is the IRS able to answer your question, or do you need to be transferred? At which all of us know that if you get transferred, you pretty much get transferred multiple times, and, of course, there's no guarantee of a resolution. Sadly, we found that only 37% of our members were able to get consistent support from the IRS, meaning a resolution, while 37% rarely or never were able to get a resolution. Amato: Among our members who are tax practitioners, are they satisfied with the service the IRS provided during filing season? Lauridsen: Neil, surprisingly, our members are feeling more optimistic about how the IRS is doing, and they've improved for the last two years with the IRS. It has definitely helped that the IRS is answering the calls. However, to your point, almost half of our membership does not think the IRS is on the right path. I should also let you know, too, that when we get these survey results, we actually communicate this directly with the IRS and we let them know. Our work is cut out for us as to what we need to be able to continue moving forward with IRS services, and we've definitely portrayed that to the IRS. Amato: Speaking of moving forward, for the 2025 filing season, what would you say are the top concerns facing AICPA members? Lauridsen: Given that it's an election year, no shocker that the number one concern for our members, and number one concern comes in about 29%, is the impact of legislative changes. What I was surprised to see was that the lack of guidance actually came in only at 17%. But I actually expect that to go up considerably once we start to see those legislative tax packages becoming law and we are going to need guidance from the IRS and Treasury. Number two on the list, coming in at about 27%, also no surprise, is the continued delay, which includes the written correspondence and processing of information with the IRS. I should also note that we did have an option on this survey for people to click "other" and fill in the response, and that came in about 5%. Overwhelmingly, everybody was talking [about] the delay of the brokerage statements and delayed K-1s, which create workload compression areas. That is definitely something that we've been monitoring and we're starting to work again, and we've been keeping an eye on it for a few years. Neil, all this is really to say that we have identified some issues. There's a lot of work that needs to be improved upon with the IRS, and we're moving forward with it. Amato: K-1 in particular, that was a term I hadn't even thought about or heard in a while, so I guess it's still out there, along with others. Melanie, we appreciate this update as we close out our July recording. Again, we're recording early July. This is due to publish in mid-July. What would you like to leave listeners with as a closing thought? Lauridsen: I think our members should be aware that we are monitoring, we definitely love hearing from them, we take it to heart, and we definitely push for their needs to be able to find resolutions. Sometimes the work is very slow. But we do start to see results and we do start to see the needle moving. Hopefully soon, we'll have some resolution with ERC and some answers and guidance, and we'll start seeing resolutions for BOI, too. Amato: That's great. Melanie, thank you very much. Lauridsen: Thank you, Neil. Keep your finger on the pulse of the dynamic and evolving tax landscape with insights from tax thought leaders in the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section Odyssey podcast includes a digest of tax developments, trending issues and practice management tips that you need to be aware of to elevate your professional development and your firm practices. This resource is part of the robust tax resource library available from the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section is your go-to home base for staying up to date on the latest tax developments and providing the edge you need for upskilling your professional development. If you’re not already a member, consider joining this prestigious community of your tax peers. You’ll get free CPE, access to rich technical content such as our Annual Tax Compliance Kit, a weekly member newsletter and a digital subscription to The Tax Adviser.

Tony Nitti, a partner at EY National Tax and tax law expert, breaks down the significant Supreme Court ruling on Moore v. U.S. He discusses the implications of the mandatory repatriation tax and how it shapes future discussions on unrealized gains and wealth taxes. Nitti emphasizes the value of understanding both the majority and dissenting opinions for a richer grasp of tax law evolution. Listeners will find insights on historical context and the potential future of taxation in America, complete with references to landmark cases.

Get a snapshot of the AICPA & CIMA ENGAGE 24 conference held in June at Las Vegas. Conference attendees share their experiences at this premier accounting event along with the knowledge that they gained from various sessions. Highlights include discussions on professional growth, finding balance, mental wellness and the importance of networking. Register now to attend AICPA & CIMA ENGAGE 25. Transcript April Walker: Hello everyone, and welcome to the AICPA's Tax Section Odyssey podcast, where we offer thought leadership on all things tax facing the profession. I'm April Walker, a lead manager from the tax section. Today's episode is a little different as it contains snippets and recordings from several participants at the AICPA and SEMA Engage conference, which was held last week in Las Vegas. I have actually been to this conference as a staff member of the association every year. I believe this is the eighth. 2020 was virtual, of course, but I've been every year and somehow it just always gets a little bit better and better to me. But rather than hear me drone on and on about how great it is, please listen to those who attended. I have with me Ashley [Francis]. Ashley was in person with me. We're recording this on Tuesday, June 11th. We were together last week at the Engage Conference in lovely, hot -- very hot - Las Vegas last week. Ashley, I'd love to hear your overall impression. How was your week at the conference? Ashley Francis: So, my overall, overall, is that I am so exhausted, but it is that good exhaustion. Like you go and you do something, and you do the things that you want to do and you have such a wonderful time. That you're tired, but it was a good experience. Walker: Wonderful, yes. Were you there all four days? Francis: Oh, I was there longer because I did one of the pre sessions. Walker: Look at you. Francis: I did the PFS live pre session, sat for my PFS certificate, and passed the test. Walker: Congratulations! Francis: Thank you! Walker: [Go] you with your new credential. Francis: I know, it's very exciting, Walker: Yeah, I think one more day might be do me in. Francis: I agree, one more day, Walker: It's wonderful… Francis: [Five]days was enough, yeah. Walker: Yeah, it's just a lot. I'm wondering in all of the sessions that you went to, if you had one particular takeaway or one session that really meant something to you. I guess meant something to you professionally or personally. That [included something] you are trying to implement into your life. Francis: Absolutely. And this is a challenging question because there were three sessions that stood out to me, that I could go back and listen to again and again, but the one that impacted me the most, I would have to say, is Andrea Miller's session on balance and mental wellness. Because I think a lot of times, especially for me, everything is just go, do the next thing, do the next thing. Without stopping to think, wait... is this next thing the thing I actually want to be doing? And so even though it was a big room, it was full of folks, her session did such a great job, having folks walk through that experience themselves in a very individual way. When I left that session, I was like, holy cow, what am I going to do with my life now? So, it was really big. I ordered [about] 30 books from the library because of it. Walker: Nice, that's always a good session that creates more work for you to do after the fact. I didn't see that session. I have a long list of sessions that I want to go back to and watch for the first time or watch again. I'm sure you know she used to be staff here at the AICPA and I loved working with her. Francis: She's great. Her career turn has been exciting to watch also. Can I give a shout out to the other two sessions that I would love? Twyla and Barbara Richardson, their session on “making wow client engagements” that was really good. And then Keila and Carrie talked about bringing in non-accountants to help support and sustain and build our firms. That one was brilliant as well because it hit on so many different, important things that we need to think about. Walker: Neither of those which I attended. again, there's so much going on, all the time, which is, not necessarily a negative of engage, but it's just. It's almost like you have FOMO. It's oh, I can't do all this stuff. Yeah. all thank you so much, Ashley, for hopping on and recording with me today. I hope to see you at, if not before, at next year's Engage Francis: You definitely will. Walker: Welcome, Brandon. I have with me Brandon Lagarde, who is a wonderful volunteer with me. [He]does a lot of different things, and he was with me at Engage last week. We had a lot of fun, but Brandon, I'd love to hear about your experience overall at the conference last week. Lagarde: Yes, absolutely. Thanks for having me. Last week was the Engage Conference, and I believe this is the 8th Engage, is that correct? Walker: yeah, that seems right. Lagarde: 8th Conference? It's been many of them, and I think I've been to every one of them, and every time I go, I'm just amazed at the scope of what is provided. It just seems every year it gets bigger and bigger. The speakers are incredible. the exhibitors are getting, better and better, and even, just so much out there. The people that are going. It’s a great experience overall. One thing we hear [a lot] about the accounting population and aging population. I was shocked to see the amount of young people at the conference and excited about accounting and excited about the practice. Also really getting to meet a lot of other people who are trying to do the same thing we're doing. Just this practicing and learning from each other and it was a great experience. Walker: Yeah, it was. It was a lot of energy and a lot of enthusiasm. And sometimes it doesn't come from the older generation. It comes from the younger generation. But I like to be a hanger on [of the younger generation]. Brandon, are there any connections you made from a networking perspective during the week that you would like to share with us? Lagarde: As I mentioned, this is my eighth Engage conference. And this is I believe the second annual AICPA Foundation Golf Tournament that was held Sunday morning before the conference kicked off. This year I looked at my schedule and I'm attempting to play golf, trying to get better and improve. And I've been told that the only way to improve is to play a lot. So, I thought, let me sign up for this tournament. So I actually played in the golf tournament, Sunday morning. Fantastic tournament- I highly recommend it to anyone who's going out there. And got to meet some really great people. You get put with three other people to play with. Didn't know these people before and played a round of golf. Had some good shots, had some bad shots, enough good shots to go back out there. We did not win the tournament, unfortunately, but we made some good friends and I continued to network with those individuals and keep in touch with them throughout the conference and ran into them multiple times. I ran into him at the Old Red event, which was an event that was sponsored by AICPA, on Tuesday night at the conference. This was another great time just to network and to listen to the band. Although, it was a little hard to network there because it was a bit loud. I tried to talk to Damian Martin a couple times, and I think we were screaming at each other at one point just because of the volume of the music. But it was a great place to just meet people. At the exhibit hall, I'm always amazed at the [number] of vendors that are there that are sure They're there to support the AICPA and their product. But it's just amazing the technology that's out there and the things that are happening. Getting to meet some of the people there and getting to make connections with some of the platforms out there and learning more about people. A lot of generative AI conversations, a lot of generative AI companies - some better than others- but, just a lot of opportunity out there to meet people. And that’s the benefit of going to something like this and going to a conference like this. It's not just tax people. It's not just audit people. It's people from all different areas of the CPA practice. At the end of the day, all we're trying to do is help our clients and help our practices improve and getting to see what's out there and getting to meet people who are dealing with the same experiences we're dealing with is you can't put a price tag on that. Walker: Yeah, I agree. Brandon, thanks for joining me for a quick little snippet of your week. It’s one of my favorite weeks of the year. I look forward to Engage 2025. What shenanigans will we get up to? Time will tell. Lagarde: We've already started, we've already started [ENGAGE 2025] to do list. Walker: Yes, we have. Things we didn't get to that we want to accomplish. Most of them are very responsible types of to dos. Lagarde: Absolutely, I already have it in my calendar next year too. I'm already down to go. Walker: Wonderful. Lagarde: [Looking] forward to it. Walker: Thanks for joining me, Brandon. Lagarde: Thank you. Walker: Welcome, Mark. Mark Gallegos was at the ENGAGE conference. We're recording this on a Tuesday, June 11th. Mark, tell me, I know it was not your first time, you've been to ENGAGE several times, but, what specifically, was a highlight for you about last week's ENGAGE conference? Gallegos: Yeah, I think from the ENGAGE conference, it's the human aspect to me. Meeting people, interacting with people, and really getting to listen and learn from others. The way I look at it is, you get to learn from experts in the field in areas that you think you know a little bit about, and you learn that you have a lot of learning and growth to go forward with. Learning on the latest trends in the profession, strategies, and regulatory updates from a tax perspective. And then, learning from these experts and staying relevant in the current tax landscape and the changing tax landscape. But also learning from others in other areas, whether it's accounting and financial planning and estate trust and areas that maybe I don't do enough work in. But it enhanced my growth opportunity while there. At the same time, you just become a more well-rounded person by being inundated with that for a week. Walker: Yeah, I know that's one thing that is possibly a negative for people about ENGAGE. It is so big and there are so many different topics. But to me, that is a positive, because you're not just meeting tax people. You're meeting people from all across the industry. I completely agree with you that the human aspect of conferences is something I'm really excited was able to survive the pandemic and come out strong on the other side. Gallegos: That's right. And I think networking within the conference, whether you're in the classes, between sessions or early in the morning or Walker: Or late at night, let's just say. Gallegos: Whatever your flavor is, or maybe all the above, I think that is a great opportunity because you're meeting people from various sectors within the profession. These valuable connections last beyond the conference. You can even be meeting potential clients, people you could work with or vice versa. And more importantly, thought leaders- people that have great ways of collaborating with others and learning how you can help them, or they can help you. I think that's a huge takeaway for me. Walker: I think so too. Thank you for sharing your insights. Hopefully, we give people who were not there a little bit of FOMO. And it will happen again next, next June. Thanks again, Mark. Gallegos: You're welcome. Walker: I have with me now Dan Moore, who was also out at ENGAGE with me last week. Dan, what's your overall impressions and thoughts about the Engage conference last week? Moore: Hey, April. Thanks for having me on today. I don't know why the feeling seemed to be different this year. I don't know if it was just the great keynote that we had kick off the conference Monday morning- Eric Weinmayer, who really spoke to me and spoke to a lot of people. But I just felt like there was a massive amount of energy. At this year's Engage, several of the speakers were just so excited to be there to get up and speak and talk to participants after their sessions. They were excited to meet up with their colleagues and go out to dinner. there just seemed to be so much. Excitement within the room. The energy was great. And I am still a week later I'm just still really excited about how the event went. Walker: Yeah, I had the same feeling I was trying to describe to my team members who unfortunately were not able to be out there with me and I said - it's just a vibe. That’s what the kids say. It just a vibe. It is hard to explain, but it’s just a good word for the energy and excitement. Moore: Our speakers were excited to be there, and that was great to see. Some were speaking on new material, some had revised and revamped some older material. [They were] just so excited to present. Everyone really kept my attention, as much as we were getting tired near the end of the week and day four. They were still keeping my attention and the energy just was everything. Walker: That's great. We know you did a lot of things during the week, but was there anything that you didn't have time to do? It's hard to make time for everything, but was there anything specific that you have on your to do list, for next year's Engage? Moore: Several things stick out in my mind. I've already started my to do list for next year's Engage of the things I want to remember to do. Some of them are directly content related. But others are the other activities that are available to you during Engage. First, it's getting up at 6am and participating in either yoga or the run. I know a group of people get together, they do a walk/run, they go out on the strip, and I didn't take advantage of that this year. So that is definitely on my to do list for next year. But also I felt like I didn't go into the conference as prepared as I wanted to really go out and explore the exhibit hall, as well as explore the solution sessions that were available with many of our vendors. We are kicking off a project within my office to reevaluate our tech stack, and I really wish I would have taken the time to. start the conversations internally within my firm so that I could go out and seek out the vendors that are on the short list of solutions that we are looking at implementing in our firm. Because what a great opportunity to meet the frontline of those technology solutions. That was the big thing that I really walked away thinking, next year, I want to take the opportunity to meet people. There's a number of solution sessions, I want to say there was probably at least 4 or 5 running every morning, also solution sessions during lunch, where you could go out and hear specific presentations from various vendors and I missed out on that opportunity. But you know what? I'm not going to beat myself up about that. That's next year. but I think it takes a lot of planning. To come to the conference, you get the exhibit hall list ahead of time. So, you can go ahead and take a look and see what vendors are going to be in the exhibit hall and start thinking about those vendors that you want to visit. You can make the list up ahead of time to seek them out and not only get to meet them, but see, hey, are they offering some sort of special pricing for attendees? And, hey, you can also fill up your swag bag. Go home with free stuff. Walker: That's right. I know that they were doing demos of certain things, and that would be cool to do. But like you said, you have to go into the conference planning exactly what you're going to do almost every minute, which is hard to do. It's hard for somebody like me to do, because I'm more of a wing-it kind of person. But if you plan, you can really take the full opportunities for what's available there. Moore: The other thing too, if you're talking to a vendor and one of their the vendor's customers, come up, you can start the conversation with another firm owner. They're like, oh, I'm using this solution. Later on, you can meet up with them, and you can say, hey, now that we're alone, can I ask you some questions, how did you implement this into your firm? What works? What doesn't work? What are some best practices you would suggest if you're thinking of implementing a new solution? And so that's also a great help. If you know a firm that said, hey, this is a great solution, but if I had to do it again, what would it be? I would have approached it this way. That connection really is invaluable. Walker: Alright, thanks so much for sharing, Dan and we look forward to hearing more. Dan is the chair of the Tax Strategies conference, he will definitely be there next year, no question. Truly, in a couple of months, we start planning for next year's conference. Looking forward to doing that. Looking forward to seeing all the new and exciting stuff we can incorporate for the 2025 conference. Moore: Thank you, April. Walker: Yep. Thanks so much. Walker: I have with me Kelly Rohrs. Kelly, it was your first time at Engage, so I would love for you to share kind of your initial impressions and also what was your favorite part about being at the Engage conference. Rohrs: Hi, April. Thanks for having me on today. The first time at Engage, first time in Vegas. I couldn't believe how big it was. There were over 4, 500 people were there. Massive. I ran into so many people, so many familiar faces. It was really just such a wonderful event. Walker: Yeah, one of my favorite things about, that just because it's such a big conference, you do run into people that you've probably only known necessarily through social media or things, so like putting a face to a name is really just the coolest thing. Rohrs: Absolutely. Totally agree. Walker: All right, any other kind of takeaways or thoughts you have about the Engage conference? Will you come back? Rohrs: I think that people think that conferences like these are for large firms, especially put on by the AICPA. People don't think that this would be beneficial for the small firm owner, but I think that is an absolute misconception. I think a lot of the classes were geared towards the small professional, the smaller firm, how to advance your firm, what sort of services. That you should provide or develop to keep up with the times and, besides the continuing education portion of it, the networking piece and meeting the vendors that were there was phenomenal. to have the two huge Showrooms filled with the best vendors in the country who are willing to, a lot of them are giving demos, handing out free demos, free months of subscriptions. That is really the power of an event like this. To take away all of these new software or to hear what other people are doing in the hiring space. It’s priceless. It's worth every penny. Walker: Yeah, it is, it's hard to describe, but it is like two giant rooms of vendors. And then also the vendors do, we call them solution sessions or education labs. And so even more you're able to get like a deeper dive into their services and things, which I think is, like you said, it’s cool and it's not something you can get just anywhere. Rohrs: Yeah. It's so much better than being behind the screen. You're in person. You're watching these people who are super passionate about what they're doing. You're building true relationships. And I don't think I met anybody I didn't like. Walker: Oh, that's always a positive. It was delightful. It was our first-time meeting in person, even though we've known each other for years. So that's always delightful to experience that. Next time we'll schedule and spend some more time together. I think we were all both just running around, crazy. Thank you so much, Kelly, for sharing your experiences with us on Engage. Rohrs: Thank you. Walker: I have with me now Damian Martin. Damian was also at the Engage conference last week. Damian, you have been at Engage a couple of times. What was your general impression about last week's conference? Martin: General impression, is just how inspired I am and, how great it is to see all the things going on in the profession and all the people in the profession, I'll have to say a highlight for me, aside from getting to hang out with my favorite tax podcast host, which is you, obviously, It was watching Tony Nitti accept the Sid Kess award and his acceptance speech and all of that. That was just, just incredible and a highlight on, on, on many fronts, I'll just say. Walker: I love those five minutes was like a lot of nuggets in there. If you have access to Engage and you can go back and listen to it, I would listen to it for that first couple of minutes. He's very inspiring, and makes you want to reach out and do bigger and better things. Martin: Yes. And I'd be remiss if I didn't say too, that it was followed by a very, very good business tax update as well. Walker: Absolutely, hang on, I wasn't just saying, Martin: Yeah. No, I know you weren't. Walker: Brian did an excellent job with the, Brian Lovett, with the business tax update, so yes, hang on for the whole session, the whole 75 minutes. Damian, did you make a networking connection? To me is my absolute favorite part about Engage, seeing people in person and, getting in that face to face connection. Did you make a connection that you'd like to talk about? Martin: Absolutely. And I completely agree, right? Like it's nice to interact, especially, remotely and whatnot. But just there, there's something to being in person and maybe putting a face to a name and all of that, that happens every year. But this is actually a connection I'll say that even goes back to last year. So last year at Engage, I reconnected with a group from the firm I started with, which is Bowman Company in Stockton, California. They were the ones that kind of gave me the chance in public accounting, got me inspired. Really the path that, that I got on to where I am today, I attribute all back to them. And then coming back this year, I have to say, it just, it warmed my heart and it just really meant a ton to me to see Daryl Petrick and, Jeannie Rusick, who are, partners at that firm, sitting in the front row at my session on Monday, for the individual tax update. It just speaks volumes about them. Back to your point about just the great people that are in this profession, and I generally walk away with, I know there's headwinds and whatever else, that you can focus on, but there's just, there's good people in the profession. So, it's really hard for me not to conclude that there's great things that continue to come for the profession as a result of people like, like Daryl and Jeannie. Walker: Well said. Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said. There's a lot of positive energy that I feel when I'm at Engage that makes me excited about the profession and about changing and evolving. Martin: That's right. Walker: Thank you so much, Damian, for sitting down with me for a quick little interview. We'll have to, we'll have to have you back for a longer discussion at another time. Martin: Happy to do it. Thank you, April. Walker: Thank you so much. Usually when I close these podcasts, I always talk about taking a journey together towards a better profession. And I ask my guest what their bucket list travel destination is. But while I didn't take the time to ask all of our guests today to answer that question specifically, I think it's safe to say that based on their discussions, we'll all be back together in Las Vegas, again, at Engage 2025. Again, this is April Walker from the AICPA Tax Section. This community is your go to source for technical guidance and resources designed especially for CPA tax practitioners like you in mind. This is a podcast from AICPA and SEMA. Together as the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants. You can find us wherever you listen to your podcast, and we encourage you to follow us, so you don't miss an episode. If you already follow us, thank you so much. And please feel free to share with a likeminded friend. You can also find us at aicpa-cima.com/tax and find our other episodes as well as any resources mentioned during this episode and others. Thank you so much for listening. Keep your finger on the pulse of the dynamic and evolving tax landscape with insights from tax thought leaders in the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section Odyssey podcast includes a digest of tax developments, trending issues and practice management tips that you need to be aware of to elevate your professional development and your firm practices. This resource is part of the robust tax resource library available from the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section is your go-to home base for staying up to date on the latest tax developments and providing the edge you need for upskilling your professional development. If you’re not already a member, consider joining this prestigious community of your tax peers. You’ll get free CPE, access to rich technical content such as our Annual Tax Compliance Kit, a weekly member newsletter and a digital subscription to The Tax Adviser.

The OECD BEPS 2.0 project consists of two pillars. Pillar One applies to the biggest and most profitable multinational enterprises and reallocates part of their profit and taxing rights to the countries where they sell their products and services. Pillar Two introduces a global minimum corporate tax of 15% to prevent tax avoidance and base erosion.   The U.S. has not yet adopted the OECD project into its tax system, but it will still impact U.S. multinational businesses that operate abroad. Practitioners need to know about the OECD project because it is a major change in the international tax system that will affect many multinational enterprises and their tax compliance.   AICPA resources OECD BEPS 2.0 - Pillar One and Pillar Two — The OECD BEPS 2.0 sets out to provide a tax reform framework allowing for more transparency in the global tax environment. Advocacy Comments to Treasury on tax issues of OECD Pillar Two, Feb. 14, 2024 Comments to Treasury on Amount B of OECD Pillar One, Dec. 12, 2023 Other resources  OECD BEPS – Inclusive Framework on Base Erosion and Profit Sharing Transcript April Walker: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the AICPA's Tax Section Odyssey podcast, where we offer thought leadership on all things tax facing the profession. I'm April Walker, a Lead Manager from the Tax Section, and I'm here today with my friend and colleague, Henry Grzes. He's a colleague here with me on the AICPA's Tax Practice & Ethics team. Welcome back, Henry. Henry Grzes: Thanks April. Happy to be back. Walker: Wonderful. The aim and goal of this podcast is definitely not to teach you everything you ever wanted to know about OECD and Pillar One and Pillar Two because we certainly couldn't do that on this podcast. But, we would like to talk about why you need to care, why you do need to know high level what this framework is about, and I'm going to try to listen also because I know when I start hearing this, I definitely tend to turn off my listening ears. Everyone turn on your listening ears, as they say in preschool, and let's get going. First, I've been saying and I've said it a couple of times, and I know that we as accountants love acronyms, OECD. Who is this, and what are their goals? Grzes: We're going to start basic, as you said. OECD stands for the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development. Now from their website, they describe themselves as an international organization that works to build better policies which result in better lives. Their goal is to shape policies that foster prosperity, equality, opportunity, and well-being for us all. Together with governments and policymakers and citizens, they work on establishing evidence-based international standards and finding solutions to a range of social, economic, and environmental challenges. These include economic performance, creating jobs to foster strong education, and fighting international tax evasion and international standard setting. The goal of the OECD project we're talking about today is to reform the international tax system and provide a more transparent environment for tax. The official title of the project is referred to as the OECD BEPS 2.0, Pillar One and Pillar Two. By the way, BEPS stands for Base Erosion and Profit Shifting. Walker: Thanks, Henry. I think we can all agree that transparent tax environment sounds like a good goal, but when I start hearing about pillars, I think about building buildings, but that's not what this is about at all. So tell me more about Pillar One and Pillar Two. Grzes: Each pillar addresses a different gap in the existing rules that allow multinational enterprises, also referred to as MNEs, to avoid paying taxes. First, Pillar One applies to the biggest and most profitable MNEs and reallocates part of their profit and taxing rights to the countries where they sell their products and provide their services. In effect, where their consumers are. It deals with transfer pricing issues and the allocation of profits and adopts new nexus and profit allocation rules with the objective of assigning a greater share of taxing rights over global business income to market countries. Without these rules, these companies can earn significant profits in a market without paying much tax there. It is a plan to reallocate some taxing rights to countries based on where their customers are located. Pillar One originally targeted large, profitable digital companies, but now applies to most large profitable multinationals. The G20 OECD project on addressing the taxation of digital economy began in 2019, building on the final reports issued in 2015 in the earlier projects on BEPS. Pillar Two was released in December 2021, and when adopted, would apply to a much larger group of MNEs with global annual revenue of 750 million EUR. These companies would be subject to a global minimum corporate tax. With these new rules, companies organizing their affairs in a way that their profits, in a given jurisdiction, whether that jurisdiction is deemed to be a low tax one or otherwise, are subject to an effective tax rate lower than the minimum rate. If that is the case, those profits would be still taxed at the minimum rate of 15%. Walker: In April-language, Pillar One is talking about transfer pricing, which transfer pricing obviously has been an issue for the whole time I've been doing tax, which is a long time, and then Pillar Two is a minimum tax, and it's a high level, 750 million EUR. Where does this regime stand in the United States? Grzes: Currently, there are no enacted laws that incorporate Pillar Two into the U.S. taxing system. There has been proposed legislation, but the implemented laws abroad will still affect U.S. multinational businesses. U.S. adoption of these pillars would require Congress's approval. While countries are already adopting Pillar Two without a U.S. agreement, Pillar One would likely require U.S. approval to go forward since a large fraction of the income affected is from U.S. multinationals. The deadline for the agreement on Pillar One was extended for a year through 2024. Canada was considering a digital service tax, also known as a DST, and delayed adoption while Pillar One was under consideration, but it is now continuing with a retroactive DST. According to the Congressional Research Service, which is a nonpartisan shared staff to congressional committees and members of Congress, if Pillar One is adopted, there will likely be a revenue loss to the U.S. due to the reallocation of taxing rights, and increased tax on U.S. firms, and an associated increase claim of foreign tax credits. If Pillar One is not adopted, DSTs that have been adopted over the past few years in other countries would likely remain in effect and proliferate in other jurisdictions. There is no current proposed regulation in the U.S. that incorporates Pillar Two into the U..S taxing system, as I mentioned earlier. The IRS issued a notice released in December of 2023 which barely scratches the surface on the relation of Pillar Two with foreign tax credit and dual consolidated losses. But Pillar Two has not yet been enacted in the U.S. Despite the lack of adoption in the U.S. at this point, the laws impact MNEs because they do business abroad, but there is still much needed guidance in the U.S. on these taxes. Walker: Quick summary, no U.S. taxes have been implemented by this minimum tax so far for Pillar Two, but still, we'll talk about this in a few minutes, still we can't ignore this and we'll talk about why. A question came up for me, again, I'm no international tax expert by any means, but I hear minimum tax and I think how does this relate, if at all, to the corporate alternative minimum tax, CAMT, I think it's also called, affectionately, imposed by the Inflation Reduction Act a few years ago. Are they connected or like each other in any way, and also how about the GILTI regime that was added as part of TCJA? I know that's also an international tax provision. Grzes: The two taxes CAMT and Pillar 2 are completely unrelated. Inflation Reduction Act imposed a Corporate Alternative Minimum Tax, as you mentioned, CAMT is the acronym equal to the excess of 15% of a corporation's adjusted financial statement income. Keeping with the theme of acronyms, that would be AFSI over its corporate alternative minimum tax, foreign tax credit. AFSI is the net income or loss set forth on an applicable financial statement with certain adjustments. This tax is effective as of December 31, 2022. Pillar 2, however, is a 15% effective tax rate and CAMT is a 15% tax based on AFSI, which is effectively booked income. In regards to GILTI as part of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, the U.S. adopted various changes to its international tax rules, including this new tax, which we refer to as GILTI, which stands for Global Intangible Low Tax Income. These rules apply to the revenue of non U.S. companies that U.S. corporations and other citizens control. These entities are referred to as controlled foreign corporations or CFCs. GILTI is a CFC blended tax regime under Pillar 2, but it's important to note the taxing of GILTI is much different than Pillar 2, even though Pillar 2, as it was being developed, used GILTI as its basis. GILTI is based on a blended tax regime versus Pillar 2, which is based on a country-by-country one. Walker: That's helpful to help me understand. Definitely still no expert on this, but I certainly want people to understand why they need to know to be able to talk intelligently about these different regimes and taxes. Tell me, give me a case for why I need to know more and care about these developments? Grzes: Well, that's a great question, and as we all know, the world is becoming a smaller place by the day. Although these rules primarily impact large corporations, the accounting profession has a role because many practitioners will need to understand these rules and stay abreast of the changes which are happening quickly so they can guide their clients through the complexities of compliance. Walker: Got it. Definitely more to come on this issue. Let's talk through the challenges that we'll face in the businesses that we serve and represent in working through these new regimes. Grzes: As you indicated, there are many challenges and those include understanding the rules and the compliance associated with that. That's a big one. Increased reporting and tracking requirements, including increased documentation burdens and reporting. There's also the cost of implementation, administrative burden of complying with Pillar 2 will significantly increase compliance costs. Also understanding the transfer pricing rules, especially when it comes to Pillar 1. We think all practitioners anticipate some form of tax law changes in conjunction with the numerous provisions of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act scheduled to expire at the end of 2025. And it is possible that these OECD rules may be addressed as part of this anticipated legislation. Walker: Perfect. We're definitely continuing to do more work in this area with resources and we're definitely following all the potential legislation that's coming up or that we expect will come up either towards the end of this year, end of 2024 or certainly towards the end of 2025. There's so many provisions that are expiring, so we will continue to follow this. Henry, I like to have a little fun with my guests. In closing, I like to think about is taking a journey together. Today on our journey, we're taking an international journey, but it doesn't have to be -towards a better profession. In doing so, I love to hear about your bucket list items or a trip you have planned. You are a well-traveled individual, I know, because you are a friend of mine, but I'd love for you to share something that you're excited about. Grzes: My wife and I will be spending a week or so the summer in the Azores, which are the islands off of Portugal, as well as within Portugal on the continent itself. Very much looking forward, we've never been, we know people who have visited those places and they loved it. We're very much looking forward to visiting the country and experiencing the culture and everything that it has to offer. Walker: Very nice. You speak Portuguese? Grzes: I do not, but I will find a way between now and then to expose myself to the language. So that I can at least… Walker: At least ask for a drink. Grzes: Ask for a drink and identify where the bathroom is. Walker: Very good. Those are the important things. Thank you again so much Henry, for sitting down with me and talking about this very complex topic. Again, we really just wanted to give you a nice highlight of what you need to know and that there's more to come from us on this topic. Again, this is April Walker from the AICPA Tax Section. This community is your go-to source for technical guidance and resources. Designed especially for CPA tax practitioners like you in mind. This is a podcast from AICPA and CIMA together as the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants. You can find us wherever you listen to your podcast and we encourage you to follow us so you don't miss an episode. If you already follow us, thank you so much and please feel free to share with a like-minded friend. You can also find us at the aicpa.com/tax to our other episodes, as well as get access to the resources mentioned during the episode. Thank you so much for listening. Keep your finger on the pulse of the dynamic and evolving tax landscape with insights from tax thought leaders in the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section Odyssey podcast includes a digest of tax developments, trending issues and practice management tips that you need to be aware of to elevate your professional development and your firm practices. This resource is part of the robust tax resource library available from the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section is your go-to home base for staying up to date on the latest tax developments and providing the edge you need for upskilling your professional development. If you’re not already a member, consider joining this prestigious community of your tax peers. You’ll get free CPE, access to rich technical content such as our Annual Tax Compliance Kit, a weekly member newsletter and a digital subscription to The Tax Adviser.

Melanie Lauridsen, AICPA & CIMA VP of Tax Policy & Advocacy, provides an update on IRS service improvements and the impact of the Inflation Reduction Act funding. She also discusses other key tax advocacy tax initiatives that are top of mind right now.   AICPA resources Employee retention credit resource center — Access resources to learn the latest on the employee retention credit (ERC). Beneficial ownership information (BOI) reporting resource center  — Access resources to learn about the beneficial ownership information reporting requirement under FinCEN’s Corporate Transparency Act (CTA). Transcript Neil Amato: Welcome back to the Journal of Accountancy podcast. This is Neil Amato with the JofA. I'm joined again by Melanie Lauridsen, vice president–Tax Policy & Advocacy for the AICPA. This is a special collaboration episode between the JofA podcast and the Tax Section Odyssey podcast. Melanie and I are going to talk about some tax topics that are top of mind for practitioners. This is the third such update in calendar year 2024. First, Melanie, welcome back to the podcast. We're recording in late April. In the tax community – I’m more the general consumer, not a practitioner – but I'm wondering, is there a sigh of relief maybe for the tax community? Or maybe a setting of those out-of-office emails and packing of bags for vacation when busy season ends? Melanie Lauridsen: Neil, absolutely. There definitely is. I think of filing season like running a marathon in a two-hour timeframe. It's very intense, and at times you just don't know if you're going to make it. It feels very exhausting. But you do, and it's hard to keep up that pace. So, a quick shout-out to everyone and congratulations to those that did just wrap up another filing season. They've definitely earned that break and that vacation time. Amato: Again, we're recording late April, April 26 to be specific. This episode will air in early May. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but it feels like this year is the first sort of normal March and April for tax season that we've had since 2019. Is that accurate? Lauridsen: Neil, last year was also a relatively smooth filing season. We did have uncertainty about how things were going to go. However, the IRS did receive the Inflation Reduction Act funding, which allowed last year to show improvements to their services. This is actually the second filing season in which the IRS has had access to that IRA funding. According to the IRS stats, they had a really strong filing season. Now, I also believe this is in part because the IRS had a smooth runway for this filing season. There really weren't new laws, and, of course, the government shutdown did not occur, which forced the IRS to shut down. Collectively, like I said, it's a smooth filing season for the IRS to be able to show more improvements. Now, most notably, according to the IRS, they've reached an 88% level of service, which is an increase from 84% level of service at the same time last year. They also answered over a million more calls this year with shorter wait times. That's all really good. However, I do need to caution that the IRS's numbers are a snapshot of a moment in time. That 88% level of service on their phone lines really captures a limited number of phone lines that they have and only a subset of the callers of those limited number of phone lines. For example, last year they had that 84% level of service that I mentioned. When looked at the entire year and looking at all the calls the IRS received, they really only answered about 34% of all the calls. I also have to plug in that each year, we also deploy our own survey immediately after filing season, and we reach out to our members and ask them how they felt finally season went. Those responses oftentimes align more so with that 34%, and they also align with Erin Collins’ report to Congress on how the IRS did overall. Hopefully, for the next podcast, we can go over the results that we get from our members. Amato: That's great, and it definitely does show that while there has been a smooth runway, it doesn't necessarily mean everything's going smoothly. It's certainly not all calm as it relates to issues affecting taxpayers, tax practitioners. What are some of those topics that are still popping up, that are top of mind for practitioners as we head into May and beyond? Lauridsen: I do have to say BOI is a hot topic, beneficial ownership information. However, during the filing season, it got put on the back burner. But now that filing season is over, I've had a flood of people reaching out on the issue and really asking about the impacts regarding the court case with the National Small Business Association and what that really means. Also, unfortunately, we're starting to enter the natural disaster season as we head particularly into the October filing season, so people start to ask questions about that. Actually just this past week, we endorsed a bipartisan legislation to provide additional tax relief to victims of natural disasters. Specifically, what we're supporting is when the IRS extends a filing deadline due to a disaster declaration, it would allow the taxpayers to claim and recover refunds not only within those three years but also that extended period of the disaster-related extension. Again, very helpful for victims of relief. Changing topics again, another area that we're also working on, it has to do with digital assets. The IRS is beginning to ramp up more and more with that, and we're trying to find clarity around that tax framework for digital assets. Amato: Yes. In the Journal of Accountancy, we recently wrote about the posting of the Form 1099-DA. Is that the draft, or the final form? Lauridsen: Neil, you're right. It is the draft form, and they did release it. The intention is to show the report of the information of the sale or disposition of digital assets. That's going to be kicking off Jan. 1 of 2025, so that is coming soon. Amato: Thank you for that. Tell me your reaction or response to this IRS news. Commissioner Danny Werfel said recently that the IRS still receives 20,000 employee retention credit claims a week. That's even though the processing of those claims has been halted since September. Seems like a lot. Lauridsen: It is. Well, Commissioner Werfel actually told the Senate Finance Committee on April 16 that the tax bill passed by the House in January would actually help the IRS combat ERC fraud claims. That's where they're asking for ERC claims to be retroactively stopped. From his perspective, he said that eligible claims, they do exist, but they're very hard to find and it's finding a needle in a haystack. He's not very happy with that aspect. If you see the statistics of their moratorium, the withdrawal program, and the voluntary disclosure program, there's real money at stake here. We've been told that it's costing the government something about $3 billion per week to maintain the ERC claims open. Now, all of this is to say that I personally wouldn't be surprised if that provision in that House bill to stop ERC claims retroactively, if it were to get stripped out from that bill, and it were to become a stand-alone bill that gets passed. There's just a lot of support for this provision, especially with that amount of money associated with it. Amato: I heard that was spoken about in the most recent AICPA Town Hall, April 25. That $3 billion number definitely stands out. Clearly, a lot still to be wrapped up as it relates to ERC claims. You mentioned that tax bill; that was going to be my next question. What's the update on that? I guess it's now in a committee in Congress, and for clarity, which committee exactly is it that has the bill, and where does it stand? Lauridsen: It's with the Senate right now. The House passed the bill, and it went to the Senate. The last I heard was that the Senate wanted to do their own markup. But ultimately, if you look at what's happening in the world around us, there are a lot of things going on that the Hill has to focus on, and it takes precedence over this bill. It was also my understanding that this bill, as it stands, was barely on life support. Which it's not to say that it can't be revived in other iterations or eventually it could get passed, but as it stands right now, the likelihood of that bill pushing through is not very high. Amato: If it doesn't go through, what happens? How does it restart if there's a new tax bill? Lauridsen: On something like that, it really comes down to what I mentioned with the ERC provision. That has a lot of support, and people can then strip certain pieces out of the bill and either pass them as standalone bills, which is probably what would happen with the ERC bill, but you can also introduce it with other packages, different pieces of it. So like I said, it could be different iterations, different portions of it. It doesn't mean it's completely dead, particularly with the ERC piece. Amato: If it's a 600-page bill, but not all of it's going to pass, then maybe the 60 most important pages here and the 30 most important pages there could be repackaged into a new bill? Lauridsen: Yes. Something like that. Yes. Amato: I realized those are just my estimates and oversimplification, but helps me understand. I hope it helps the listeners understand. You've mentioned disaster legislation, obviously, the news topics we've been following, ERC, digital assets, BOI, beneficial ownership information. But elsewhere from an advocacy standpoint, what are some of the top AICPA priorities for the second half of this year? Lauridsen: Well, Neil, as you're aware, it is an election year, so we're absolutely going to be seeing tax reform coming up. We already know we have TCJA provisions that will begin to sunset. We have also heard of an IRS tax administration procedural package, which is going to have, we've heard things like potentially the Safe Harbor Act, some disaster relief provisions, or things along those lines with the IRS. Then, of course, there just is the 2025 tax reform package we'll see from the elections. Taxes are the way we generate income and money for our country, so we are bound to see a lot of potential tax changes coming up in this next year, and so we have to gear up and prepare for that. Amato: Melanie, thank you for this rundown. Anything you'd like to add in closing? Lauridsen: Just to pay attention. Changes are coming, and we're here to help. We're trying to continue to help them, supporting the profession but also taxpayers in finding fairness and equity in the tax laws.

Mark Gallegos, CPA, MST, Partner — Porte Brown LLC, discusses the importance of having processes around retaining documents for accounting firms as well as advising clients on what information is important for them to maintain. It is imperative to manage files in an efficient manner, and, often, there are different considerations for physical storage versus digital storage.   AICPA resources Document Retention FAQs for Tax Practitioners — Having a written document retention policy for your firm is a must-do along with advising clients on taxpayer record retention. Document Retention Policy Template for Tax Practitioners — Formalize your tax firm’s policies about retaining documents related to firm operations and client records. Optimizing your tax practice — Explore tools to manage a more efficient tax practice, enhance your operations, add value to your service offerings and reinforce client relationships. Transcript April Walker: Hello everyone and welcome to the AICPA's tax section Odyssey podcast, where we offer thought leadership on all things tax facing the profession. I'm April Walker, a lead manager from the Tax Section. I'm here today with Mark Gallegos from Porte Brown in Chicago. He is a second-time guest, but welcome back, Mark. Mark Gallegos: Thanks for having me, April. Walker: Today's topic is about document retention, and this came to my mind for two reasons. One, on a practical level, we at the AICPA just updated some resources around this, some FAQs, as well as a document template, which of course I will share in the show notes. But second, on a more personal level, recently my family has been cleaning out my in-law’s house and it was pretty clear that their document retention policy was to retain all documents. Either they didn't have one or that was their policy to retain everything. That was fun. But I thought this doesn't seem like a super sexy topic, but it's an important topic. Mark, I thought maybe let's talk about the importance of a firm having a document retention policy. Maybe talk about some risks associated with not having one or maybe you have one to check the box, but you're not following it. What are your thoughts on that? Gallegos: I know with clients I always run into either they save everything forever and then they have no idea what they've actually saved in all the boxes. Then there's ones that don't save anything. Document retention policy is so important. It's critical, especially to a CPA firm, but even beyond that to individuals, to businesses. Because you're dealing with sensitive and regulated information, and when you're looking at that, there's different areas you need to break it down to. Many industries we work in, including the accounting profession, you're highly regulated and you need to keep documents and you need to have a defined policy that helps define what are the legal obligations for keeping these. You don't want to be fined. You want to make sure you are the trusted adviser that can provide the information, but also you don't want to be the one that's keeping things for 20 or 30 years, that is just keeping up space. It makes you efficient as an organization because you're basically organizing your documents. You can easily access them, and you can pull them when you need to. It's a good way of keeping security on those documents. Because at the end of the day, you want to be able to secure them. Obviously, you can secure them in paper form, we can secure them in digital form, and we'll talk about all that. But I think there's different ways, because it is sensitive information, to make sure that you're also doing that. I think one of the most important things is from my perspective, from an accounting firm perspective, is client trust. They trust us with their information. They trust us with their documents and so we want to make sure that we maintain a systematic approach to handling their information in a sensitive way. We have that responsibility, and our reputation is on the line to make sure that we're holding up to that. But beyond that, there's a lot of risks that can go involved in this. You're talking about sometimes just legal risks and regulatory risks, like we mentioned. If you don't have a policy, you might retain the documents [for] too long or too short, or maybe you don't have a policy, so you destroy them after a year when really you should have kept them for a period of time that was in fact what you should have kept them for. Also, now, someone needs them, and you don't have them. Operationally, it's good to have it because without a retention policy, these documents can accumulate [and that] can lead to your whole organization being disorganized. Then when you need to find something, you can't find it. That I find is a very common occurrence out there. On top of that, security. Walker: Lots of reasons to have one. This never happened to me when I was in practice, but I don't know if it has happened to you, or you've heard about it anecdotally. Again, hope it never happens to you, but if in a lawsuit, your records are subpoenaed and you have a document retention policy and you're following it, then maybe if you are asked to produce documents and they're outside of your document retention policy. You're not required to provide them. But if you do have them, then you have to provide them and maybe provide even more. I think that's like a firm liability risk, also, like so many risks around this. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that piece. Gallegos: That alone is why you need the policy. I have not run into that. I've had other colleagues and other firms run into this policy problem, where they've been subpoenaed to provide, we'll call it tax documents, tax work papers and they don't have them. The first thing that people asked for when they start getting more into a litigation situation is providing your retention policy and they realized they don't have one then. Now, whether they've kept them and destroyed them in the proper amount of time, now their reputation, potentially, they could be on the hook for other fines and penalties. It's just unnecessary legal action that they get drawn into, when at the end of the day, if they actually had a policy, they can say, we kept it for, we'll say seven years and then we destroyed them. Here's the record of us destroying them and you can provide all that information. It helps the entire situation, which I think is very important. Walker: I think so. We've talked about the importance of having a policy. What about the guidelines? Are there very firm and fast guidelines on how long you keep certain documents? Gallegos: One of the things, for us, tax returns — you want to keep indefinitely. I tell my clients that all the time, but there are workpapers and bank statements and payroll documents. Typically, seven years is the policy. But you want to make sure that you are adhering to what are the rules. And for whether it's a permanent document or whether it's just a work paper. [Determine] what kind of document it is and make sure your policy identifies what your policy is to keep them and then how are you taking steps to make sure that you're following that. When you're looking at different guidelines. Obviously, the legal requirements are based on what kind of document. Is it a federal tax law mandate? Is it something that is more HIPAA, health care type stuff? Is it SEC regulations and finance? Is it legal? Then you want to establish those categories to identify those different types of documents so that you can put them into different buckets. I think that's very important in this process. Walker: I mentioned that we have a template for it. It's again, just those general guidelines that you can use for your firm and share with your clients. But as Mark said, we want to make sure that you understand that there could be different reasons — Government grants or something like that or different state requirements related to keeping certain types of documents. You need to be able to think through that and understand it. [Let’s talk about] document retention in general, in this digital age. I feel like there's still paper. We talk about offices being paperless. My house is certainly not paperless. I wish it was, but I just remember, I started practicing in the mid '90s, which makes me feel like an ancient crone at this moment. But anyway, it was like file cabinets. I can still close my eyes and think about going into the file room, pulling out drawers and things. These were the files that need to be destroyed and we moved files around. I don't know, it’s just bananas to think about. But [hopefully] your policy is not that the cabinets are full, and we need to go through them. How do you think about digital storage and what are your thoughts about managing that? Digital storage seems like you have an unlimited amount. Again, you go back to, it feels like, oh, I don't need to care about this. But you really do for the reasons we mentioned earlier. What do you think about digital storage, Mark? Gallegos: I'm with you. I started in the '90s, I think '97, and I remember filing cabinets full of paper and everything was paper. Now we as a firm, we're very paperless. But you still see paper and I still go places where I see nothing but paper. I think it's just all over the board, but there is definitely a shift from the physical to the digital document storage. It's altered the landscape out there. We're seeing more and more of that because everything's pretty much digital. But that's good and bad. You've got to look at it as scalability and space availability. In the past, if I had lots of documents, I had rows and rows of file cabinets or rooms just filled with it and then off-site storage. They were paying an enormous amount of money to keep that paper. Then now with digital, it's all in the Cloud, we'll say, or in some sort of format. However, without a policy, you can store so much stuff digitally and you don't know how to get to it. Searchability and being able to access what you saved because I could save one thousand documents in the cloud. But if I have no way of really knowing how I documented it, how do I search for it? How do I find that stuff once it's there? I think that's a big thing. Also with digital storage, it's out of sight, out of mind in some respects. At least with physical, I can start digging through and have people go through these drawers and see what you can find on this. But sometimes when it's out of sight, out of mind, it just keeps building. If I have a firm of tens of people, thousands of people and now everybody's storing and we don't have a policy, we don't have any method. Boy, that's going to be a messy digital storage facility for us. I think the most important thing in this is data breach, security risks. What happens if I have the greatest storage system, but I haven't protected it from outside security measures? That can be a big problem. Walker: That's probably a different podcast topic, but every time I have a chance to talk about it, I remind our practitioners that they need a written information security plan. It's required — one reason to have it, but it's also, you just have to have it because of all this data…that you hear about these breaches all the time and it's really scary. You talked about digital files — they're just everywhere. They could be [hard to find] if you don't have a really good system. Do you have any tools or software or things that you use to help with this, with retention in your firm? Gallegos: Yes. We have a number of things within the cloud, but we predominately use our CCH products and the document products there. We have a very sophisticated way of how we save things and how they get archived, and we have people who manage that. There's an elaborate system of how data flows and gets stored and when it gets destroyed at the same time. We're very lucky to have the resources to be able to have a great system. But also, there are other ways out there. There's so many, whether it's accounting platforms, even Microsoft’s SharePoint, Google Workspaces. There's a lot of software out there that can provide different tools. I think it's finding the right tool that works for your organization. What documents am I managing? Is it industry-specific? What are the integration capabilities of my system with this? Then I think [about] stuff we do and I think other people do too, is just regular training and updates. How do you maximize the effectiveness of these tools? Because just like anything, you'd go out and put on your phone the greatest app in the world but if you don't actually know how to use it, it's really not going to provide you any value. Walker: Useless. I've done the same thing trying to keep up with my to-do list and things. There's some great stuff out there, but then it's all human-dependent at a certain level. The robots haven't taken over the world yet anyway. We touched on this, but I think it's important to touch on it again, and that is recommendations to clients about their records. I feel like that was a common question that I got and I'm sure it is for you too, Mark. How long should I keep my tax return? Like you said, indefinitely for the tax returns, but that doesn't mean every piece of paper associated with that tax return. How do you help your clients think about the importance of maintaining those records without going overboard and going into a hoarding situation, and then also the digital? Something sticking in my mind is that you as a firm are not your client's document retention [policy]. They should keep copies of their tax return. At a certain point, you're going to get rid of them and they can't ask you, do you have my 2000 tax return or whatever the year is? No, I don't have that, even if you've been a client for that long. How do you help that? We've talked about security, so you need to preach that to your clients too, of course. But what are your thoughts on that, Mark? Gallegos: This is a question I get quite a bit, guiding our clients on document retention. It's more of a balancing act sometimes, ensuring compliance, but also helping them. A lot of them are hoarders, whether they want to be or not with that information. I'll have clients to call up, for example, and say, I've gone through my basement, and I have 30 years of boxes of tax documents. So you have to specify what kind of tax documents. Is it the actual tax returns or is it maybe all the work papers? W-2s, 1099s, etc. I think that's where the template that the AICPA has is great for giving some guidance on what you should do. But I always tell my clients, look, tax returns, keep them indefinitely for yourself. Whether you want to know or not, it's just good to have in case you ever have to pull it out. But basic document storage of your records that support the tax returns, the seven years, or whatever makes sense for your situation is what you should keep. But I agree, we keep our records for ourselves, it's not because we're keeping them for the client. I think that is where, again, circling back to the whole idea of having a policy is important. From a legal standpoint, assessing business needs, making sure that document management system is efficient. How are we handling it, whether it's paper or digital? Who's managing that? We have some key champions or practice leaders that are involved in that. What are the risks? What are the costs involved in making sure our system is up to date? But also, just constantly promoting how do we keep it clean? How do we keep it moving forward? By having that, when clients ask you for their own, whether it's their business or individual, you can give them the same insights and then help them determine what policy they should have. Even if you're not a client, you just sit at home, and you've got all kinds of records. Say, I’ve got phone records going back 10 years, should you have that or not? Maybe you should create your own home policy, those things. Walker: Good advice. Mark, as we're wrapping up, [do you have] final thoughts [to share] on this topic as you're thinking about document retention. Gallegos: I think it can be a generic topic where people go, whatever. But I think it's more important. Where I see this [being critical] is [due to] all the legal things that come out. Unfortunately, there's a lot of lawsuits that fly in a given year, whether someone is involved or not involved or it's indirect. But needless to say, the one thing that will always come out of it is provide documentation or memos. If you were supposed to have that and you destroyed it or if you have a policy that says you should have kept it — If you should've destroyed it and now you still have it, you still got to produce it. It's all these things that come along that are very important. But also the security risks, the challenges that are involved in that, and sometimes just the cost that's involved. There's a lot involved there that you’ve got to really make sure of in the regulatory and compliance area. I think so, staying compliant, enhancing your efficiency, helps minimize your risk and at the end of the day, from an accounting standpoint, it builds our trust. Our clients know, hey, you're the trusted advisor. You got our information and you're doing everything you can to make sure that is taken very seriously. Walker: That's great. Just had another thought as you were talking, and that we didn't specifically talk about is emails and maybe other methods of communication with your clients, text messages. Again, I feel like that's a whole another podcast topic. Why are you texting with your clients? But anyway, at least there are ways to do document retention on emails. But I feel like that's where I've heard things can really go awry with liability situations, so make sure you're thinking about your emails and your email correspondence and any other correspondence with your clients when you're thinking about document retention. You're a second-time guest on here so you know this question is coming, but I like to think about us taking a journey together towards a better profession and I love to hear about your other journeys outside of tax. What have you got on the horizon? We're at least having a pause in tax season, hopefully, you have something fun planned. Gallegos: Obviously, busy season and tax season coming to a close is always not only a relief but it's like a celebration in your soul. For me, it's taking a step back to enjoy family and friends, to just thank everyone more intentionally that you maybe didn't get a chance to. But also, I think for me, it's all the soccer games to go to, it's all the school events, it's all the vacations that are coming up. In the summer, we're going to take my family to the Outer Banks. We go every year. It is one of the most, for me, the relaxing week of my life because I just unplug and I literally get to enjoy beach sun and just relaxation. It's the one time a year more than any time that I really recharge. Not that I need a lot of recharging, but it does help. Walker: Everyone needs recharging in some way. You have a graduating senior just like I do, where I'm sure there's stuff going on around that as there is at my house too. Gallegos: Absolutely. Walker: Thank you so much, Mark. I appreciate your time today and hopefully, we have provided some great information for our listeners. Again, this is April Walker from the AICPA Tax Section. This community is your go-to source for technical guidance and resources designed especially for CPA tax practitioners like you in mind. This is a podcast from AICPA and CIMA together as the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants. You can find us and listen to us wherever you find your podcast and we encourage you to follow us so you don't miss an episode. If you already follow us, thank you so much and please feel free to share with a like-minded friend. You can also find us at aicpa-cima.com/tax and find all our other episodes as well as the resources mentioned in this episode as well as others. Thank you so much for listening. Keep your finger on the pulse of the dynamic and evolving tax landscape with insights from tax thought leaders in the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section Odyssey podcast includes a digest of tax developments, trending issues and practice management tips that you need to be aware of to elevate your professional development and your firm practices. This resource is part of the robust tax resource library available from the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section is your go-to home base for staying up to date on the latest tax developments and providing the edge you need for upskilling your professional development. If you’re not already a member, consider joining this prestigious community of your tax peers. You’ll get free CPE, access to rich technical content such as our Annual Tax Compliance Kit, a weekly member newsletter and a digital subscription to The Tax Adviser.  

In this episode, listen to a conversation with Jody Padar, the Radical CPA, about the evolving role of CPAs in the face of technological advancements. Jody emphasizes the need for proactive communication, year-round tax planning, and restructuring business models to prioritize client needs so that CPAs can maintain their relevance in the accounting industry. To learn more about Jody and her new book coming out soon, please visit her website.   AICPA resources Reimagining your tax practice — Tackle today’s top practice management issues with insights and tips from pioneers in the tax community. Transforming Your Business Model — “Transform” indicates a dynamic but collaborative change that our business models will support. This concept invites firms to join the discussion and explore their businesses through the lens of the five focus areas. Transcript April Walker: Hello everyone and welcome to the AICPA's Tax Section Odyssey podcasts, where we offer thought leadership on all things tax facing the profession. I'm April Walker, a lead manager from the tax section and I'm here today with Jody Padar. She is the Radical CPA. I can't wait to hear more about that. I think we’ve both heard of each other, but we've never officially met. I'm excited to chat with you today. I saw a LinkedIn post that you did sometime during last week about communication gaps between clients and tax advisers. It really just resonated with me and so I reached out and I'm super appreciative that you sat down with me, we're actually chatting on April 15th. I'm happy to not be scrambling around doing tax extensions today, but I think we will have a great conversation today. Let's start off with a quick summary about your observations that led you to that post and just where you're coming to this conversation from. Jody Padar: Sure, I'm Jody Padar, the Radical CPA, and probably one of a handful of branded CPAs. I've been creating disruption in the industry for years now and really it began as a small innovative firm owner almost 15 plus years ago. I was at early cloud adopter, disrupted the space around cloud and technology. Fast-forward, I owned my own firm for 14 years. I sold it in 2020 right before the pandemic. I joined Botkeeper for a couple of years, so I went to the tech side and then I was recruited away from Botkeeper to April [which] is the name of the software company. I started to build tax software from scratch. Now I currently work as a senior adviser to April and then I'm all-in on being the Radical CPA and helping firms evolve to the next level of, I'll say, disruption — it's not really just disruption. The next level of relevance, really, as AI and all the new technologies come into firms to evolve them to stay relevant in the future. How I got to that post was, I sold my firm in 2020. A couple of clients last week reached out to me because they were actually resold. When I sold, they didn't join Botkeeper. They actually went to another practitioner and then that new practitioner was sold again. Fast-forward, they're in a new firm and they reach back out to me because where they landed in the new firm, they are not feeling heard. Ultimately, they do not feel that this new firm is listening to them and I don't think that they're unusual on that. When you see the post, and it got over 150 responses, a lot of tax practitioners feel that not all firms treat clients the same way from a feeling perspective. When I talk about it, I'm talking about in [terms of] small businesses under a million in revenue. I know it could go up, but that's my sweet spot. I think what happens is practitioners get the technical right and they get the deadlines, but they forget that the consumer that they're serving really doesn't care about that. They don't know any different, but they do know how you make them feel and they're not feeling heard. They're not feeling they're getting the right explanation and they're not feeling that CPAs are giving them what they're paying for. It was interesting because there was a little bit of scuttle on it saying — you sold your firm pre-pandemic — what do you know? That was the feeling and I get it. It's been a rough few years. But if we're not selling and we're not meeting our customers needs where they need to be due to product market fit, what value are we to them? We can't complain about deadlines. We can't complain about lack of talent. We can't complain about all that other stuff because ultimately, we're here to serve our customer. If our customer is not getting the feeling that they need and the understanding that they need about their tax situation, guess what? We're not going to be relevant because there are technology companies coming into the space that are meeting those needs. I think that's the hard part for practitioners to hear. Again, I'm the person who's pushing the bleeding edge, but I think it's a real eye-opener to say, your competition is not the firm down the block. It's someone else in a technology space whose meeting their needs from a feeling perspective and a communication perspective and an understanding perspective and if we want to still be relevant and do business as tax preparers in the future, I think we need to up our game. Walker: I love all of that and I call myself a recovering tax practitioner because I'm on the other side now. But I love, it's really a passion of mine, to think about, we can re-imagine this. We can rethink the way it traditionally worked. It didn't work for me to stay as a tax practitioner and why was that? But I love it — asking the hard questions and making people think, hey, maybe it's not everybody else's fault. Maybe you need to look in the mirror a little bit. Let's think about when back when you were in the trenches and a firm owner, what strategies did you use to build those strong relationships with clients? Because that's really what we're talking about today. We're talking about communication and relationships. And no, an AI bot is not going to be able to do all the tax returns. That's not what we're saying. I know that's not what you're saying, but technology is going to be able to do a lot of things. The relationship is where we've got to figure that piece out. Padar: The more technology comes in, the more human we have to be. We have to up our game on relationships. One of the reasons I'm so radical is because I threw out the billable hour. I was all about fixed fee pricing. How do you price a tax return upfront by getting paid up front for the work you're going to do, making sure that you're talking to the client quarterly at least, if not monthly, from a tax perspective and doing planning year-round. I didn't let just tax returns come into my firm. You had to come in for at least quarterly projections, if not more. Restructuring your business model so that it is meeting the customer's demands and where they want to be. It's very hard to appease a customer when you're only talking compliance because the value in tax [work] is in the planning, it's not in the return. How do you position yourself to do that? How do you set your pricing? How do you set your sales process? How do you set all of those other things? Then when it comes to communication, it's about scheduling those calls ahead of time and having those conversations year round. If the customers are cranky in March, it's because they haven't been communicated through the whole year. Because we know in March, that compliance document shouldn't be a surprise. Because you should have done planning before year-end and you should have had conversations the prior June about where that taxpayer was standing. Again, it's how do we re-imagine who it is we're serving, what it is we're selling and how we deliver it so that our customer is the focal point of it. Because I think in years past, it was always like, that’s the end result and that’s not it. We need to re-imagine the whole process. The thing is we can schedule these things. We can put in strategies to have conversations four times a year. Again, if you think about pricing and how [changes to the model can be] very disruptive to a firm. But if you price upfront for it, then the customer, they see it as part of what it is they get and you're not chasing them down. You send them an email and say, it's time to schedule our quarterly appointment. They put it on their books and you have that tax planning conversation as opposed to asking them to ask for it. Because they won't ask for it because they don't know it's important to them. They don't know what to ask for. Walker: True. Another thing I was thinking about was, and this is a topic that's come up on this podcast before, is talking about active listening. It's definitely something that is a skill that I'm working on. In my life, in my family, in my dealing with listening to what people need. But let's talk about how important it is or how important you feel it is and building that bridge really between being that compliance [focused]: I asked you questions, you tell me things, I prepare a tax return, I check it off and I'm done and being a true business advisor. Padar: That's where, again, I think it comes into scheduling these conversations and making tax a year-round conversation and restructuring your firms. That is part of what you do in the off season. Have these conversations at least quarterly- could be more- so that you’re used to talking to this customer and they’re used to calling you when they need you. I would argue that most of this comes down to pricing because I think pricing is the number one thing that pushes people from calling their CPAs. If they think they're going to get billed by the hour or if they think there's going to be an extra charge for this, they don't call and it's very hard to be proactive when you're not getting called. When you fundamentally shift that pricing model, now all of a sudden your customers are calling you all the time and you can be proactive and you can actually even sell more services. Because now you can step back and say, you need that calculation, happy to do it for you. Whereas in traditional firms, what happens is the customer doesn't call, they make some decision and now you're trying to figure it out in March. Then the taxpayer is mad at you because now they have this huge tax bill and they think it's your fault when ultimately in reality, you can't do anything after December 31st. Had you called me in August, we could have planned for this. But we get the blame, because we're the one who prepared the tax return. I would argue, but if your customer felt there was an open-door policy where they knew they could call you all year and they weren't going to be nickeled and dimed for those phone calls, they would call you and you could then get proactive around tax planning. We've created this problem ourselves, but we can undo it. It's just a matter of restructuring our firms to be radical. This is stuff that I've talked about for years. This is not new to me. What I think has happened though, is that the market has changed so much and I would argue that tax practitioners have felt it for a while, but it seems to be more extreme these days. It seems to be that more customers are demanding more and they want more, I'll say post-pandemic. How do we adapt to them? Because if we want to be relevant, we truly have to have product market fit. I do’'t believe that CPAs have product market fit anymore. I think that they used to, but I think today professional service firms, the way we operate is not conducive because our customers are used to dealing with an Amazon type of experience, and they want that experience. Most firms, you send them documents and maybe you ask a question, it might be three days before someone gets back to you. Unfortunately, I think part of the reason firm owners haven't changed is because it's not just the front side of the house, it's the back-end of the house that we have to reorganize. We have to standardize, we have to productize our service offerings on the backend so that we can have a clear front end. There's packaging and pricing on the front, but firm owners have to get their act together on the backend with the way they standardize the way they collect documents, the way they set meetings, they have these advisory conversations with their clients, the way they standardize all of those activities. They can't have seven different partners doing seven different ways in a firm. Unfortunately, it's still like that today. Walker: Definitely. I was just thinking as you were talking, I feel like where the push is that these traditional firms and practitioners have all these clients. They don't have time to service all of them or they don't take the time. This is a general statement. You don't take the time to figure out what is my actual right fit [client]? That means getting rid of some, I think it has to be, if you're going to truly give the same experience that we want to give, an Amazon type experience, it has to be fewer people. Padar: There's a talent shortage. There absolutely is a talent shortage, but that's supply and demand. Either you have to raise your prices and hire more people and pay a premium for them or you have to cut some of the clients you are serving today. That was some of the scuttle in the LinkedIn post saying who's going to serve them? If you can't serve them to the level they should be served, you are doing a disservice to your firm and to the customers who are paying a premium price and that's reflective of your brand. I get it, you're trying to be nice to these customers you've served for all these years. I get it. I was in that place and I had taken over my dad's clients, so I had some of those legacy clients. But a certain point, they either have to pay more to get that level of service or they have to find another alternative. It may be a do-it-yourself product or it may be something else, and that's okay. But you can't let your business suffer because you're trying to help these people who "can’t afford it.” They’re making decisions every day about their priorities and what they’re willing to pay for. Some will be willing to pay for your services and some won’t be, and that’s okay. I think that's the place we're at today. Firm owners have to really embrace that mindset and say, okay, who am I serving and how am I serving them? Because right now, taking everybody and giving them all not right level of service is not the right business move because now your good customers get annoyed with you too, and they'll go find somewhere else because they're not getting the service level that they want so that you can take care of these people who have been with you for years, who I would argue most of them will pay more because they trust you, they love you, they want to stay with you. You just have an ask them to pay a premium price. Walker: This is really a tough love conversation right after the tenderness of April 15th. But sometimes we need to have these conversations. I'm also thinking about professionalism and customer service versus creating boundaries like clients that'll text you at all hours of the day and night. We're saying customer service, and then we're also saying, you've got to have boundaries because this is a business relationship. What are your thoughts on that or how to tackle some of those concerns? Padar: Well, I think that depends again, on your pricing model, because you can have first-class clients who you will respond to at all hours of the night because they're paying a premium for that service. They want that service. They want the white glove service. But the other services, when you get to packaging and pricing, you can have a standard SLA service-level agreement where you'll respond to an email in 24 hours, but you'll spell it out. I think that's the other piece of it is like, how poor are we at communicating what the expectations are for how our customers are going to interact with us? If we don't lay it out in a service level agreement and say, look, this is the price you're going to pay and we're going to respond within 24 hours or we're going to respond within 48 hours or whatever it is for your firm, then everybody's on the same expectation. If they don't follow it, you can always go back to them and say, hey, look, this is the price you're paying and you said that you were good with 48-hour turnaround and now you want me to respond in a half-hour, guess what? You're going to either pay more for that or if they're really abusive in it, may be the conversation to have, hey, maybe we're not the right fit anymore. But these are all clarity around expectations that unfortunately CPAs never did before because it was always like, Oh, I'll bill you by the hour because the pricing model didn't make you rethink these things. If you rethink them and you think about it from a different lens, now all of a sudden you can set those boundaries. Again, I think people always get freaked out and they're like, oh, I don't want them calling me all the time. Guess what? Nobody wants to talk to their CPA every day. You can put unlimited calls in and guess what? They're not going to call you every day. People don't call every day, they really don't. Yet it gives them peace of mind and they'll pay a premium for that because they want access. It's like when you look at these concierge doctor practices. People will pay a premium to be able to be seen within a couple of days or that day. It's funny too, because when you think about it, if you're sick and you call the doctor, like to me, there's never tax emergency. Walker: We're not saving lives is what I say. Padar: How many notices happen before that became an issue? Walker: Right,100%. This has been great. I feel like we're on the same page with this, so we just need to get everybody else on the same page and then it will be a lovely world. Any final thoughts on any of these topics as we're wrapping up? Padar: No, I just think that you have to realize that it can be done. I think so often we come out of this rat race of tax season and we're overwhelmed and we think, oh, we've got to change something. Then we take our vacation and then with summer, and then it's fall, and then we have extensions and then we're back to another tax season. The reality is you can't live in that world anymore, you have to change something and it has to happen right away. Because if you don't, you blink and it's another tax season. There are lots of firms out there who are doing things like this. It's not like years ago when I was preaching a lot of this stuff, people said, oh, you can't do it. Oh, it's not proven. It is proven now. And there are lots of firms who are proactive and have redefined these new business models. Look to them, see what they're doing. Most of them are willing to help and talk you through it. Because ultimately, we became CPAs because we wanted to serve our clients and ultimately that's at the core of this. How do we serve our clients better? How do we still have lives? We can work less hours and actually enjoy the things that we do. Walker: Wonderful thoughts. In closing on these podcasts, I like to think about us taking a journey together toward a better profession. Shoot, being radical. I love that part. In doing that, I like to get a glimpse of my guest's other journeys outside of tax. Jody, I'd love for you to share a page from your travel journal or a bucket list trip or something like that you have on your mind. Padar: I recently got back from Australia and it was amazing. I would encourage anyone who hasn't been to Australia to make the trek on the airplane, which I was a little bit nervous about, and it was definitely worth it and it was amazing. Walker: Super. Thank you again, Jody. This has been delightful. Again, this is April Walker from the AICPA Tax Section. This community is your go-to source for technical guidance and resources designed especially for CPA tax practitioners like you in mind. This is a podcast from AICPA and CIMA together as the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants. You can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts and we encourage you to follow us so you don't miss an episode. If you already follow us, thank you so much, and please feel free to share with a like-minded friend. You can also find us at aicpa-cima.com/tax, and find our other episodes, as well as resources mentioned during the episodes. Thank you for listening and I hope everybody has a nice deep breath relaxation before they get into some of this hard work that Jody has pushed us today. Keep your finger on the pulse of the dynamic and evolving tax landscape with insights from tax thought leaders in the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section Odyssey podcast includes a digest of tax developments, trending issues and practice management tips that you need to be aware of to elevate your professional development and your firm practices. This resource is part of the robust tax resource library available from the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section is your go-to home base for staying up to date on the latest tax developments and providing the edge you need for upskilling your professional development. If you’re not already a member, consider joining this prestigious community of your tax peers. You’ll get free CPE, access to rich technical content such as our Annual Tax Compliance Kit, a weekly member newsletter and a digital subscription to The Tax Adviser.