Gender: A Wider Lens

Guest Michael J. Bailey discusses the origins of sexual orientation, his book 'The Man Who Would Be Queen,' and backlash faced. Topics include genetic influences on sexual orientation, encounters with trans individuals, societal challenges, controversies related to male femininity and autogynephilia, and the impact of relentless personal attacks on his life and work.

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Recent theories about gender often describe “third gender” categories found in other cultures. Prof Paul Vasey is one of the world’s leading academic experts on the Fa’fafine. These individuals are feminine males who live “in the manner of a woman” in Samoa. Sasha and Stella have a spellbinding discussion with Paul about how our Western constructs can sometimes completely misinterpret well-researched phenomena in other societies. This conversation actually highlights the universal truths of sex difference between male and female and helps us understand the organic, naturally emerging trait of femininity in androphilic (or same-sex-attracted) males. Links:“What can the Samoan ‘Fa’afafine’ teach us about the Western concept of gender identity disorder in childhood?” by Paul Vasey and Nancy Bartlett (2007). Pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17951883Extended NotesPaul talks about Fa’afafine and how he got interested in this culture.Is gender identity disorder in children a mental disorder? Paul shares what they found with the data they collected on their studies of the Samoan people.What is Fa’afafine? Paul shares its definition.Paul also talks about the history of Fa’afafine in Samoa and how they are socially accepted in their culture.Does Fa’afafine also exist in other cultures? Paul shares the different groups around the world that have the same identity.Paul talks about what being gay means in the cultures of Samoa and Oaxaca.Is there an equivalent of Fa’afafine for females? Paul talks about the other categories of this kind.Paul talks about the typical behaviors children from Samoa usually exhibit that helps families identify them as being of the third gender.In these societies, gender doesn’t play any institutionalized role. Everybody is responsible for themselves.Paul also talks about how sex atypical behavior organically emerges from children through the studies he has had with these cultures comparing them to Western ones.Paul also shares his findings on what is the female equivalent to autogynephilia in his research.Is autogynephilia a Western phenomenon? Paul shares his insights on this.Paul also talks about the different cross-cultural perspectives of gender and their different norms.Sexual orientation is biological but traits can be affected by the environment they are developed under.Why is same-sex attraction often paired with gender nonconformity? Paul shares his insights.Paul also talks about his Ph.D. about Japanese monkeys and how it relates to the impact on gender from social construct.Paul shares his thoughts on what is sex and what is gender and the amount of confusion it gets.To close, Stella asks Paul two questions: One, does the Fa’afafine get married or the equivalent of such in their culture? Two, is his study considered controversial in his field of study?Quotes:“Regardless of how accommodating a particular culture is, if individuals are dysphoric with respect to their sex bodies, then no amount of accommodation is going to change that sense that I’m in the wrong body.” — Paul [7:54]“Gay isn’t necessarily an identity that people draw upon to construct a sense of who they are (in Samoa).” — Paul [14:30]“Nobody makes them Fa’afafine. Their male femininity emerges and then people recognize them.” — Paul [19:30]“Male femininity is despised in the West and so androphilic males in the West don’t like talking about it.” — Paul [36:30]This podcast is partially sponsored by ReIME, Rethink Identity Medicine Ethics: This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com

For Sasha and Stella’s last episode of the year, they introduce a very exciting series that will be coming up in 2022. In the “Pioneers Series,” they will be interviewing experienced clinicians, researchers, and other professionals whose contributions to our understanding of gender dysphoria and sexuality are foundational. Consider this a back-to-basics 101 course on gender and sexuality. Stella and Sasha also talk about their own personal goals and priorities for the new year. They offer up 10 resolutions that listeners might focus on along with them as we all move into 2022. Links:100 days of walking: 100daysofwalking.com/FAQBrideshead revisited Goodreads.com/book/show/30933.Brideshead_RevisitedIdentity Crisis: Amazon.com/Untitled-Book-2/dp/0593073584Psychological Flexibility: Workingwithact.com/what-is-act/what-is-psychological-flexibility/  Extended NotesSasha and Stella talk about their plans for 2022 and their upcoming “Pioneers Series.”What were the criteria they considered for their list of pioneers? Sasha and Stella share their thought process.They also talk about their reflections of the previous year and their New Year’s resolutions.Sasha and Stella went to New Orleans together. How was it for them to work and spend time together in person?Sasha tells about her weight lifting program and how that relates to her New Year’s resolution.They talk more about the 10 New Year’s resolutions they are offering to the listeners. Which one would you most relate to?Stella shares about her 100 Days of Walking, a habit she wants to get back into.They also share the different ways we can lovingly communicate that are beyond just words.How can you move valuable connections from online to real life? Stella and Sasha share their thoughts.What is digital hygiene? They share their definition and how they incorporate this now in their routine.Sasha also talks about dancing and how she wants to make it more regular in her life.Stella shares about the book Brideshead Revisited and how it helped her understanding of life.Being able to disconnect is just as important as being seen or your pain being reflected somewhere.Stella recommends another book, something funny this time, called Identity Crisis, by Ben Elten which is about gender issues through comedy.How can we become more aware of our biases and the traps we fall into when talking about controversial political and personal issues?Stella shares more on Psychological Flexibility, being the hallmark of well-being.Staying in the moment vs. worrying about the future. Stella shares her realizations on this topic.Enjoying the little pleasures in life also reflects on how you can genuinely enjoy your children. And when you do, they will feel enjoyed, welcomed, and wanted.Lastly, Stella and Sasha talk about their invitation for everyone to get our minds out of gender and think big-picture! Let’s try to understand what is really going on.Quotes:“I know a lot of people crap on New Year’s resolutions; oh, New Year’s resolutions don’t work, the research shows nobody sticks with them, I get all that. But the New Year is this really important marker of what might offer a fresh start or an opportunity to build a new... This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com

Lisa Selin Davis is the essayist, journalist, and author of Tomboy: The Surprising History and Future of Girls Who Dare to Be Different. Like many other open-minded, liberal Americans, she has undergone a familiar arc in her understanding of gender issues. She has experienced, first-hand, the current trend of silencing those who seek a deeper understanding of childhood gender nonconformity. In this conversation, Lisa describes how she came to write her book, examines the current state of journalism, and recounts how our understanding of gender rebels has evolved in society. Lisa reminds us that we are not done learning, and we must keep the conversation going on how to best support those who question their gender or exhibit gender nonconformity.Links:Tomboy: The Surprising History and Future of Girls Who Dare to Be Different Amazon.com/Tomboy-Surprising-History-Future-Different/dp/0316458317Future-Different/dp/0316458317WPATH Standards of Care, Version 8 Wpath.org/soc8 Some selected articles of Lisa Selin Davis: Salon.com/2020/04/23/how-researching-tomboys-and-gender-helped-me-prepare-for-a-pandemic/Salon.com/2020/08/08/going-back-to-school-dont-forget-to-ditch-gender-normsBusinessinsider.com/how-gender-and-sexuality-standards-changed-views-on-tomboys-2020-8?r=US&IR=TNbcnews.com/think/opinion/think-baby-s-gender-determines-personality-s-dangerous-ncna814841Theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/03/identity-theft-racial-justiceExtended Notes:Why did Lisa decide to write her book, Tomboy?Lisa received a lot of backlash and she was called a child abuser for the way she decided to parent her child.Tomboy helped young girls experiment with masculinity.However, there isn’t a male version of tomboy. So what do the boys do?The word tomboy seems to have been phased out and it has now been replaced with the word, “trans.”What happens to Lisa’s reputation after she publishes her book?Lisa talked to a lot of successfully transitioned trans people, but in the back of her mind, she knew things were going wrong.Lisa noticed that the trans people she spoke to were no different than the butch older lesbians she had spoken to. The only difference is that this younger generation had access to a newer technology.Anyone writing about trans kids should know that we do not have good research on this topic.We have to ask: Does everyone have a gender identity or is it only those with dysphoria that do?Lisa knew if she were to write more about these topics and actually have them published in the New York Times Magazine, there would be consequences for her and her family.In 2013, gender dysphoria and trans children were not big topics. However, this exploded in 2017.It’s crazy to think that a doctor or a therapist can come between a... This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com

In this conversation, Lisa joins the show to talk about the difficult task of finding appropriate therapy for a gender-questioning teen or loved one. What is it like working with indoctrinated clients or those under the influence of a partner, belief system, or ideology? Lisa highlights the parental expectations of what therapy should look like, contrasted against the complex and subtle relational dynamics between therapist and client. Stella, Sasha, and Lisa examine some of the common traps therapists fall into: either being too affirming or too challenging before sufficient rapport and exploration have taken place. The three also make an exciting announcement about GETA, a new Gender Exploratory Therapy Association.Links:Jonathan Shedler on This Jungian Life: Podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/does-analysis-work-a-conversation-with-jonathan/id1376929139?i=1000538533899Gender Exploratory Therapy Association: Genderexploratory.comExtended Notes:What does good therapy look like for an adolescent questioning their gender?Parents often assume the therapist will explore all the options available to their gender-questioning teen. Instead, they are shocked that they pushed medicalization right away.There isn’t a biomarker for depression. Lisa explains how professionals really determine if someone is depressed.Why aren’t we doing the same process for gender-questioning teens?Therapists are being trained to not think of gender dysphoria as an unhealthy coping strategy. Instead, they’re being trained to go straight to helping them find “the cure.” If someone comes to a therapist for anxiety, the goal is to reduce that anxiety. If someone comes to a therapist for questioning their gender, the goal isn't to reduce their inner conflict.What is the true job of a therapist?Lisa talks about multiple personality disorder and how therapists handled it in the ’70s and ’80s.Patients who were diagnosed and labeled with multiple personality disorder were more likely to commit suicide than those who exhibited the same symptoms but didn’t have a label to it.However, sometimes by giving people a diagnosis, that revelation gives them relief.Lisa talks about the problems the Vietnam veterans were running into when they came home from war. Everything from being spat on at the airport to suffering from PTSD.Therapists are working with indoctrinated clients, and how you approach it is an incredibly sensitive topic.It’s one thing to explore everything going on in a teen’s life beyond their gender. However, these clients are watching hours of YouTube transition videos and trying to educate themselves. The approach has to be different.When you have an indoctrinated client, they split off their ambivalence and feel 100% sure in their decision to medically transition.Lisa talks about the Gender Exploratory Therapy Association and how it aims to help parents, therapists, and de-transitions.There are many teens who are not good candidates for therapy. Lisa explains what she means by this.Lisa shares her WAIT acronym: WAIT = Why Am I Talking. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com

Sometimes parents come to realize that the affirmative approach hasn’t worked out for their gender-distressed child and they could benefit from alternative approaches. In this episode, Sasha and Stella discuss the many complicated reasons some parents reluctantly affirm their child’s gender and how difficult and brave it can be to rethink the strategy. Parenting styles are explored, and Sasha and Stella point out the importance of finding your confident voice and parenting authority. They also offer tips and suggestions for steering the ship in a better direction once a family has gathered more information and observed an unfavorable outcome of the affirmative approach. These strategies include mitigating powerful influences on your child, broadening the family’s perspective on what overall well-being looks like, and modeling that it’s OK to change your mind once you get better information.Links:High Warmth, High Expectations lead to the best outcomes: Developmentalscience.com/blog/2015/6/28/the-only-parenting-model-you-needBook Recommendation for parents: Hold on to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers Amazon.com/Hold-Your-Kids-Parents-Matter/dp/0375760288 “4 Types of Parenting Styles and Their Effects on Kids” Verywellfamily.com/types-of-parenting-styles-1095045“Diana Baumrind’s Parenting Styles”: Iastate.pressbooks.pub/parentingfamilydiversity/chapter/chapter-1-2/Extended Notes:Is affirming the best way to support a gender-questioning teen?Affirmation is often a bandage approach to a much bigger underlying problem.Do you think you made a mistake with affirming your child’s gender? Let’s discuss this openly.Parents have been steered wrong on this issue and it takes a certain level of strength and rebelliousness for parents to go against doctor’s orders.Some parents give in because they’re so tired of being called transphobic.Sometimes children are just trying to test the boundaries, and saying they’re transgender is one of those “boundary-pushing” things.Stella admits we’re in no man’s land. It can be tough to know what’s right and what’s wrong.What do you do with the whole pronoun issue? What should parents use?Are you afraid of your child’s distress and their tears? Does your parental instinct kick in to do everything in your power to make them feel better?What happens if you have a more authoritative parenting style? How does that work in a gender-questioning teen?How do you tell your friends and family you have a gender-questioning teen? If you tell half of your circle of friends and the other half you don’t, your teen will perceive that as transphobia instead of “this is a complicated issue.”Sasha explores whether being honest about your distrust in this “gender-questioning thing” is a good thing or not.It’s okay to change your mind on your approach to this tricky process. Sasha breaks down how you can communicate this to your child.A young person is constantly searching for their identity and what makes them who they are.If you want to slow things down, take the focus away from gender and then see what happens.Do you want a pause or an undo on the medical process? Stella talks about interventions with your child and how to best approach... This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.widerlenspod.com