What is the connection between prayer and politics for Muslims and Christians? Shadi Hamid and Matthew Kaemingk challenge each other with a series of tough questions, and the results are illuminating. Should a life of prayer make us politically bold and zealous? Or should prayer make us humbler and politically submissive? Should prayer connect us to our national authorities and identities—or should it remind us that we identify with a higher authority beyond the nation? While there are deep differences between their prayer practices, Matt and Shadi leave the conversation deeply enriched. You might as well. LINKS: Shadi on the benefits of not following the news and caring less about politics: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/03/information-news-addiction-liberal-depression/673351/ CDC: “U.S. Teen Girls Experiencing Increased Sadness and Violence” https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2023/p0213-yrbs.html SEND US FEEDBACK OR ASK QUESTIONS: #zealotspod or zealots@comment.org

The caliphate is the traditional form of Islamic governance. Ever since the abolition of the last caliphate in 1924, Muslim thinkers have debated the revival of an Islamic state. In this episode we talk with one such thinker. Ovamir Anjum is the Imam Khattab Endowed Chair of Islamic Studies at the University of Toledo, and in 2019 he wrote a controversial essay in which he boldly called for the establishment of a new caliphate. Needless to say, Shadi and Matt had questions. LINKS Dr. Ovamir Anjum’s essay, “Who Wants the Caliphate?”: https://yaqeeninstitute.org/read/paper/who-wants-the-caliphate Anjum’s book, Politics, Community, and Islam in Islamic Thought: https://bookshop.org/a/65404/9781107687110 Mohammad Fadel’s article on Islamic perspectives of salvation: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1712972 Ummatics Colloquium, the Muslim research collective that Dr. Ovamir Anjum is part of: https://ummatics.org

What do we mean when we call someone “religious”? Is there such a thing as “religious” power or “religious” violence? The answers to these questions appear simple and straightforward. Not so. In his provocative book The Myth of Religious Violence, William Cavanaugh argues that modern distinctions between “religious” and “secular” forms of violence are not only arbitrary and unhelpful, they’re damaging. He submits that the very concept of “the religious” as something distinct from “the secular” is an invention of the modern West. Shadi and Matt discuss and debate the way the term “religion” is wielded and weaponized in the modern West to destructive effect. LINKS • The Myth of Religious Violence by William T Cavanaugh: https://bookshop.org/a/65404/9780195385045

Christianity in the West has grown soft and effeminate—or so says a growing groundswell on the right. These agitators argue that values like diversity and tolerance are signs of weakness and moral decay: Christians no longer stand up for the truth. They call for a muscular and “masculine” public voice—a religious and political movement that won’t make nice with secular liberalism but rather crush it. The controversial former kickboxer Andrew Tate argues that Islam fits the bill for this kind of rejuvenation and recently switched faiths to make his point. Others believe that an unapologetically orthodox and strident form of evangelicalism or Catholic integralism can point the way to a new Christian future. Still others think that a “muscular liberalism” is the cure for what ails Western democracies. Can “muscular” faiths such as these be reconciled with a pluralistic ethic? Are they in fact actually invested in Christianity’s revival, or something else disguised as such? Links: • Andrew Tate explains why he became a Muslim: https://youtu.be/vnTiTg0Ouhs • Andrew Tate’s discussion of his conversion to Islam and his critique of Christianity (explicit): https://youtu.be/FT8tiMK3aRE?t=218 • The Guardian on how Andrew Tate’s arrest for alleged sex trafficking could bring down “toxic masculinity”: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/06/andrew-tate-investigation-could-bring-down-king-toxic-masculinity • David Cameron’s on why state multiculturalism has failed: https://youtu.be/z3xsnEzA8Fw • Shadi’s podcast conversation with Sohrab Ahmari: https://wisdomofcrowds.live/sohrab-ahmari-part-one/ • The Economist “Who is the misogynist Andrew Tate”: https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2022/12/30/who-is-andrew-tate-the-misogynist-hero-to-millions-of-young-men • Shadi's book "Islamic Exceptionalism": https://bookshop.org/a/65404/9781250135131 • Shadi's article for The Atlantic on "Islamic Exceptionalism": https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/06/islam-politics-exceptional/485801/ • Twitter fight between Andrew Tate and Greta Thunberg: https://twitter.com/gretathunberg/status/1608056944501178368?s=46&t=QsYTGmmyVBbxv5vfIZ2aXQ • Rod Dreher’s “Islam: The Last Badass Religion”: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/islam-the-last-badass-religion/ • Latifa Abouchakra on “muscular liberalism”: https://youtu.be/1F6_0xM0xQQ?t=27

If Muslims are committed to shariah and liberals are committed to individual freedom, can these two worldviews really coexist? Our guest, the Islamic legal theorist Mohammad Fadel, argues that Muslim citizens can accept, live in, and even flourish in a liberal society. Shadi Hamid and Matthew Kaemingk have questions. LINKS Mohammad Fadel on Islam and the liberal philosophy of John Rawls https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=977206 Matthew Kaemingk’s article on the clash between public Islam and liberalism https://comment.org/the-headscarf-islams-gift-to-western-democracy/ John Rawls, Political Liberalism  John Rawls, “The Idea of Public Reason Revisited”

We have ourselves a disagreement. A debate breaks out as our hosts discuss Shadi’s new book, The Problem of Democracy. Shadi argues that we should see democracy as a mere form of governance, a systemic way to resolve ideological conflicts peacefully. Matthew argues that in order for democracy to endure, it must be more than a mere mechanism—it must be a way of life, something we practice, treasure, and even revere. As ideological conflicts threaten to divide countries across the globe, the stakes could not be higher. LINKS • Shadi Hamid’s new book: The Problem of Democracy • Matthew Kaemingk’s article on learning democratic habits in pubs and coffeehouses. • Matthew Kaemingk’s book on the future of democracy amidst deep difference: Christian Hospitality and Muslim Immigration

Around the world, democracy is in crisis. Should Christians and Muslims work to protect and revive it? Neither the Bible nor the Qur’an mentions the word “democracy.” At no point did the early followers of Jesus or Muhammad advocate for a democratic form of government. And yet Matthew Kaemingk and Shadi Hamid insist that Christians and Muslims should defend the wavering institution that is democracy. Why? Links: Shadi Hamid’s new book The Problem of Democracy Islamist thinker Rachid Ghannouchi’s Public Freedoms in the Islamic State, translated into English for the first time Sayyid Qutb on freedom, excerpts from Milestones  See David Koyzis’s chapter on democracy in Political Visions and Illusions See Luke Bretherton’s chapter on populism and the voice of the people in Christ and the Common Good

Diverse democracies are filled with “heretics”—citizens outside our religious and political tribes who dispute our vision of the good life and challenge all that we hold sacred. As democratic citizens, how should we respond to the heretics who contest the things we hold dear? Shadi Hamid and Matthew Kaemingk discuss the ways in which Muslims and Christians have historically made space for, listened to, and even learned from the heretics in their midst. Links: Rousseau quote is from The Social Contract: https://bookshop.org/a/65404/9780140442014 Shadi recommends The Study Quran for English speakers: https://bookshop.org/a/65404/9780061125867 Shadi's Muslim rock band: https://shadihamid.substack.com/p/when-i-was-in-a-muslim-rock-band

Our most “combative” episode yet. Progressive secularism is on a winning streak. It has scored a number of significant political victories over those who hold traditional Christian and Muslim understandings of the moral life. How should people of faith respond? Our guest worries that we might be playing a little too nice. James R. Wood is one of the most exciting and controversial Christian thinkers writing today. A theologian, professor, and ordained minister, Wood argues that people of faith need to actively contest, dispute, and sometimes even mock the political ideas of their secular opponents. What do you think? Should Christians and Muslims ready themselves for rhetorical combat? Is a “winsome” approach to persuasion naive?   LINKS Referenced essays from James Wood: https://comment.org/the-church-against-the-ideologies/ https://americanreformer.org/2022/05/this-article-is-not-about-tim-keller/ https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-limits-of-winsome-politics/   James Wood’s critique of Christian civility and “winsomeness”: https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2022/05/how-i-evolved-on-tim-keller   Shadi explores how an Islamic approach to politics was “swallowed” by the modern state: https://www.firstthings.com/article/2022/10/how-modernity-swallowed-islamism

Democracy is suffering from an overabundance of ideological certainty. Few citizens are willing (or able) to honestly express their doubts about their tribe. We can only project ideological certainty, purity, and strength—no wavering or weakness allowed. How might we begin to doubt ourselves again? How might we take ourselves and our political ideas less seriously? While Islam and Christianity are often labelled “dogmatic” and “fundamentalist,” Shadi Hamid and Matthew Kaemingk explore the unique ways in which their faiths actively help them to doubt. Related links: Shadi’s article on the dangers of religious certainty in politics:https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/how-resist-making-politics-theological/578851/ Matt’s discussion of Christian political humility can be found in chapters 4, 6, and 7: https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Hospitality-Muslim-Immigration-Fear/dp/0802874584 Andrew Tate explains his conversion to Islamhttps://twitter.com/Raaaatiba/status/1586293661360193537 Rod Dreher on Islam: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/islam-the-last-badass-religion/ Zizek Devours Hotdogs:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YamAsbzPKA