Healthy Wealthy & Smart

On this episode of the Healthy Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Dr. Sarah Haag on the show to discuss pelvic health for the non-pelvic health PT.  Sarah has pursued an interest in treating the spine, pelvis with a specialization in women’s and men’s health.  Sarah looks at education, and a better understanding of the latest evidence in the field of physical therapy, as the best way to help people learn about their conditions, and to help people learn to take care of themselves throughout the life span. In this episode, we discuss: -Intake questionnaires to screen the pelvic floor for patients with low back pain -Pelvic health red flags -How to address pelvic floor health with a conservative population -Assessing the pelvic floor muscles without doing an internal exam -And so much more! Resources: Oswestry Low Back Pain Disability Questionnaire: http://www.rehab.msu.edu/_files/_docs/oswestry_low_back_disability.pdf Sarah Haag Twitter Entropy Physio Website Home Health Section Urinary Incontinence Toolkit Rehab Therapy Operational Best Practices Forum For more information on Sarah: Sarah graduated from Marquette University in 2002 with a Master’s of Physical Therapy. Sarah has pursued an interest in treating the spine, pelvis with a specialization in women’s and men’s health. Over the years, Sarah has seized every opportunity available to her in order to further her understanding of the human body, and the various ways it can seem to fall apart in order to sympathetically and efficiently facilitate a return to optimal function. Sarah was awarded the Certificate of Achievement in Pelvic Physical Therapy (CAPP) from the Section on Women’s Health. She went on to get her Doctorate of Physical Therapy and Masters of Science in Women’s Health from Rosalind Franklin University in 2008. In 2009 she was awarded a Board Certification as a specialist in women’s health (WCS). Sarah also completed a Certification in Mechanical Diagnosis Therapy from the Mckenzie Institute in 2010.  Sarah has completed a 200 hour Yoga Instructor Training Program, and is now a  Registered Yoga Teacher. Sarah looks at education, and a better understanding of the latest evidence in the field of physical therapy, as the best way to help people learn about their conditions, and to help people learn to take care of themselves throughout the life span. Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy:                   00:01                Sarah, I was going to say doctor Sarah, hey, it just feels weird because we’ve known each other forever. But Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk about pelvic health for the non-pelvic health PT. So there are a lot of physical therapists who I think are interested in pelvic health, but maybe they don’t want to like dive in literally and figuratively. So what we’re going to do today is talk about how we as physical therapists can treat people with pelvic conditions, with pelvic issues without necessarily doing internal work. What are the functions of the pelvis, really important for bowel and bladder health, right? Sarah Haag:                  00:49                I mean, it is very important for survival, sex, very important for quality of life and propagation of the species. So these are all things that matter. But also when people come in with low back pain, when people come in with hip pain, I always find it very interesting that people say, but I don’t do the pelvis. You know, the pelvic floor is only a musculoskeletal structure. We’re not trained in most programs to palpate or to touch. It’s just skeletal muscle. That’s all we’re assessing for really as pelvic floor PT’s. So I just think it’s interesting. It’s like a blurry void when you’re looking at a body diagram.  Oh, there’s your knee. So it’s really important I think to understand what’s there and you don’t have to go there, but you have to know what’s there and know that some people need help there and help them find the help. Karen Litzy:                   01:34                So if someone, let’s take this person that has low back pain because that’s a diagnosis that we can all agree that we see on a regular basis. So what are a couple of questions you can ask during your initial evaluation? Sarah Haag:                                          So the subjective part of the initial evaluation that perhaps a lot of people are missing or that can take in that pelvic area. There’s a couple of ways that you can kind of like cheat your way in where you don’t even have to think about what to ask to begin with. If you have a red flag questionnaire, there is a bowel and bladder question on there. So, it’s really interesting because people will sometimes circle yes on those and then never discuss it. Like, wait a second, we asked the question, they said yes, it’s a thing. Sarah Haag:                  02:22                So there’s your in, it was like, I noticed you, you marked yes on the bowel and bladder changes. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Most of the time it is not truly a red flag. Most of the time it is not a sign they need to be referred to a physician.  Most of the time it’s like no one’s ever asked me that. Yeah. Stuff is different. There’s your in. And then also if you use the classic Oswestry. So it was modified I think in 2001 or 2002 to take off a sex questionnaire. The second question of the questionnaire and it was revalidated and all of those things, but if you use the original, it’s pretty awesome because now they’re like, Huh, nobody’s asked me about sex. And then you’d be like, ah, I see that this is an issue. Sarah Haag:                  03:06                One of my favorite Twitter stories is I get a direct message from someone asking me about a patient who was having pain with intercourse and I was like, thanks for reaching out. Absolutely. Can you tell me more about when they’re having trouble and where it hurts? Would you like to know where it hurt their knees in one particular position? And I said, fantastic. You can help with that. So, so it’s not always, it might be a sex problem, but it’s not necessarily that problem. So we have to not be shy about asking those. Low back pain is the most expensive health care problem we have in terms of multibillion dollar, probably millions and millions worldwide. And so of course addressing back pain, we’re still working on the best way to do that. Sarah Haag:                  03:52                But there’s a high prevalence of urinary incontinence and people who have low back pain. So if you’re seeing people who have low back pain and after, if anyone else went to the pregnancy talk this morning, after vaginal deliveries, the prevalence of incontinence goes ways up, goes way up. So if you’re seeing someone with back pain, if someone has had babies, all you can eat what you can do. So we were like, well I see this in your history cause that’s pertinent history for back pain. Correct. And then it’s like, Hey, I noticed this, any issues with this? And here’s the reason I’m asking because you can’t just go, do you pee your pants? Because people like, do I smell like what happened? Like, so if you’re just like, you know, there is a really high prevalence and the nerves in your back go to your pelvis and all of these things. Sarah Haag:                  04:32                So I’d be really curious to know are you having any issues in this area? Cause there’s help if you are. And then kind of go from there. Karen Litzy:                                           And I want to backtrack for just a second. When you were talking about red flags and said some are truly red flags and some aren’t. So just so that we’re all on the same page, what would be those truly red flags? Sarah Haag:                                          Truly in the pelvic world or in the entire rest of your body world is any unintentional weight loss or weight gain, 10 or 15 pounds over a short period of time. Also like fever, like temperature issues, loss of appetite when you have those other constitutional symptoms that go along with it. So just having some quirkiness with your bowel and bladder, it’s really no reason to panic. But if you have also a fever and also a recent traumatic event, no, no, we want to just make sure everything’s okay. Sarah Haag:                  05:26                And the cool thing is that if you go to the doctor, it’s like you don’t have a UTI. Everything else is looking fine. Awesome. Then I can help with that. But the red flags, there’s been a couple of great papers that have come out where it’s like, it’s not like if you have pain at night, freak out. No, no. If you have pain at night but also a sudden bowel and bladder change and also, okay, now we need to check in for it. But don’t panic if it’s the only one. Karen Litzy:                                           And now let’s say you’re using these questionnaires and someone puts on bowel, bladder or someone circles sex as something that they’re having difficulty with. And I love this question because this was something that was brought up last year at CSM. So there was a physical therapist there who said, well, I live in the south and these are not easy questions to ask because people are more conservative or they don’t want to talk openly about their bowel and bladder issues or about sex with their partners. Karen Litzy:                   06:28                And so what do you say to those people? Those therapists that, are dealing with a population that’s maybe much more conservative and they’re not sure how to approach those subject matters. Sarah Haag:                                          I always say just always with kindness and with a good intention and with a good explanation. So you can’t not do it because it’s awkward for you. You should be asking for a medical reason, right? So quality of life is in our wheelhouse, right? Like we’re doing all sorts of quality of life questionnaires. Pee in your pants is a huge detriment for your quality of life in many cases, not being able to have sex can impact your relationship with your partner, your feelings of ability to even have a partner, having babies. All of these things that end up being huge stresses, which is gonna make a lot of other things not as good either. Sarah Haag:                  07:28                Just start simple if you’re asking questions. So if someone comes in with like straight forward knee pain, I’m like, how sex, no, that’s not how, that’s not where we go with that. But if someone’s coming in with low back or pelvic issues, the way I usually approach it is to bring it up anatomically. So this is the anatomy. This is what we’re doing. These are where the muscles go. Most people don’t think about them. And when they’re, if they’re having issues like incontinence or have had babies, those pelvic floor muscles are muscles. Like everything else. We’re going to work in PT. So I’m going to ask you some questions and I try to do it in a spot where you have some privacy. I know some PT places you’re like in the middle of a gym. Sarah Haag:                  08:06                If you can find a quiet corner, do everything you can to put them at ease. But just to be like this is why I’m asking. And if you can see that resistance be like all right, like it’s not necessarily the number one priority for this treatment anyway, but if those things happen to be issues there is help, it can get better and you just let me know if you have any questions. Cause not everybody wants to talk about it and it’s not my job to convince you to deal with it. It’s my job to help you if you want help. Karen Litzy:                                           And if you’re a physical therapist that isn’t specializing in pelvic health, it’s a little bit different. Cause if you’re specializing in pelvic health and people are going to you because you specialize in pelvic health it’s way easier, you know, these questions are going to come up.  But for those of us who don’t specialize in pelvic health, then those questions can be a little bit more sensitive. So I just want you to make that distinction there for people. Sarah Haag:                  08:48                Yeah. And also if you’re going to ask if you’re going to take that step and be like, all right, I’m going to ask about the incontinence. I mean cause sometimes you’re in situations where it is an obvious issue. Other times it’s like, well, based on their history they’re actually at risk for it. Then you can talk prevention, which has always been kind of fun. But just if they give you some information, especially if you got up the guts to ask them, then please, please do something with it. Don’t just be like, oh yeah, so great incontinence noted in the chart. I’ll put it on the diagnosis list, like how the plan and there are some things you can do without doing a pelvic floor exam that can make amazing changes. Karen Litzy:                   09:49                How can you evaluate pelvic floor muscles without having to go internally? I think that’s a question everybody wants to know. Sarah Haag:                                          Great question. I’ll be honest, some people don’t want you to touch him there like full stop. And so I will actually give people, I would say it’s kind of like a choose your own adventure. So we can actually, we can all check our own pelvic floor muscles right here. And I would basically talk you through it. You would tell me what you felt. I keep an eye on everything else to see what else you were doing. But it would be very honest that my assessment is going to be, I believe you, it seems you’re doing it correctly. Right? But I have to believe you, but you can actually palpate externally. As a clinician you can actually do it and you can do it in sidelying. Sarah Haag:                  10:33                You can do it in hooklying and some people will do it in prone. I’m not a super big fan cause I can’t see their faces. And also it can be kind of a vulnerable position. Basically if you just palpate, if you find the ischial tuberosity, you know about where the anal sphincters are. Okay. There’s normal human variation. So I always say move slow and make sure you’re asking for feedback. But you know, mid line is where the sphincters are going to be. We’re not going midline. So you just kind of find that ischial tuberosity and palpate your way around to the medial part of it. And that’s where the pelvic floor attaches. So then you can kind of talk them through, like I’d like you to squeeze and there’s a bunch of different cues. Sarah Haag:                  11:22                One of the most common cues, especially for the back end, is to like squeeze. Like you don’t want to pass gas and that’s awesome. But if you’re a main problem with urinary incontinence, that’s the back side, back side, not the front side. So how do we get it up there? So another cue that has been found to be very helpful, it’s only been studied in men, but it is, shorten your penis. But what’s interesting is ladies, I know we don’t have them, right? Imagine that feeling, right? So like just imagine like pulling in, right? It totally changed where hopefully if this is a class, it would have asked where did you feel it? But like it, it changes it from the back and biases it towards the front of it. So find a cue that gets them to go, oh my God, I felt something. Sarah Haag:                  12:07                You’re like, awesome. So if you’re doing a Kegel and like this happens, you’re probably not doing it right. If that’s happening, you’re probably not doing right. But if like I’m Kegeling now and then I let go, you shouldn’t have seen me get taller or tensor or breathe funny. It should be very sneaky. So as you’re palpating on the medial side of the ischial tuberosities your feeling for those muscles to contract. So it’s kind of like a gentle bulge and you can totally feel this on yourself here if you’re comfy or somewhere else. But when you feel it, it’s almost like when you’re feeling like if you have your biceps slightly bent and you kind of like contract and you feel at tensioning and like a little bit of a bulge, that’s what you’re feeling for. Sarah Haag:                  12:51                Okay but it can always be tricky cause I use the word bulge. Some people will have people push down. So we should also be able to like relax your pelvic floor and push down, like having a bowel movement. That shouldn’t happen when you’re trying to contract. So like when I say bulge, you should feel like a gathering of the muscle. That’s what you’re feeling. If you feel your fingers get pushed down in a way they’re doing the opposite of a contraction. So there they’re relaxing.  It would kind of depend on what they were doing and the cues you were giving. So it could just be like, I’m pushing down like doing a Valsalva. But it is basically a lengthening into the pelvic floor. I don’t know if it’s always a relaxation, so to speak. Karen Litzy:                   13:33                It’s kind of lengthening. And what is the difference between that Valsalva or lengthening and that small bulge? Like why is that significant? Sarah Haag:                                          When you feel it, you’ll know it’s significant because if they’re pushing down in a way that’s not a contraction. So if you’re going for strengthening or more closure to hold things in, yeah, you want that kind of like tensioning and bulge. But if you’re actually the problems, constipation, I can’t get things out, you want them to be able to relax and link them. Karen Litzy:                                           Got It. Okay. All right. So now we know how we can kind of feel our pelvic floor muscles without having to do an internal exam. So once you figure out, and kind of what you said sort of leads right into the next question is if you have someone that’s coming in with incontinence and you are looking for that sort of tightening or gathering up of the muscle, which I think that’s a nice cue for people to understand because bulge can sometimes be a little confusing for people, but I liked the cue you’re feeling the gathering of that musculature. Karen Litzy:                   14:45                Is that something that you are then going to add into a home exercise program or like once you find that the pelvic floor muscles working or it’s not working, what next? What do you do? Sarah Haag:                                          Well, so I’ll be honest. It’s always I like him and people are brave enough and the patients were brave enough to be like, sure you can have a feel like let’s figure this muscle thing out. I usually try it in a normal active kid in a normal setting. So not a public one. No pelvic settings are normal too. But in like just a normal like say outpatient therapy, be it or orthopedics or neuro, I would actually have them ask more questions about incontinence before even checking the pelvic floor muscles. Because the different types of incontinence are going to kind of tell you a little bit more about what you should do. Sarah Haag:                  15:35                So some people have incontinence when they tried to go from sit to stand or when they cough or when they go running. So I want to know a little bit more about when is it happening because if it’s only ever when you’re putting your key in the front door or when you’re running into the bathroom, that’s more urgent continence. Would pelvic floor muscle exercises help? Maybe, but also probably looking at their overall bladder health, which is where a voiding log would come in very handy. And actually a shout out to the home health section and they have an incontinence urinary incontinence toolkit. It’s free for members for sure, but I think it might be free for everyone. Sarah Haag:                  16:15                So it’s a pdf that actually talks you through the different types of incontinence because the most common form of incontinence urge incontinence, which is you’re an urge incontinence is proceeded by a strong urge to go. So this is one of those things where, so there’s a bathroom at the end of the hall. So if you’re like, I’m totally fine, but then your eyes wander, you’re like, oh, I could go and I didn’t have to go. And then I would get up to go and I got to the bathroom and all of a sudden it’s like, oh, where did that come from? Like all of a sudden it felt like your kidneys did a big dump, but they don’t, that’s not how kidneys work. Sarah Haag:                  16:59                It’s just how it feels to you. So what that really is, is your detrusor muscle kind of going, I’m so excited. I imagine a puppy, like have you ever like gone to let a puppy out the door? Like, so they’re like, hey, I want to go out and you get up and you make a move for that door. And they’re like so excited. Your bladder is like that sometimes. So that’s more of a behavioral thing because what would you do with the puppy who’s now like, wait, every time I do this, she lets me out. Pretty soon you’re letting that puppy out every 10 minutes because yeah, because that’s what the puppy trains you to do. So that’s kind of more of a behavioral thing. And so that’s proceeded by a strong urge. So it’s not just when you’re going to the bathroom, but if you get a strong, unexpected urge and leak, and that’s usually a lot of people also experience some urgency and frequency. Karen Litzy:                                           So if you feel like you’re not getting to the bathroom in time, what would be a really logical plan to that? Sarah Haag:                  17:52                You’d go more often, you’re like, Ooh, maybe I need to not wait so long. But the thing is that then you’re training yourself to go more often, your bladder is perfectly capable of holding more that kind of sensitivity and those signals you’re interpreting or like, ah, no, I should go now. And then pretty soon you’re that person who can’t make it through a movie. You’re that person who can’t make it past a bathroom without needing to go. And you’re the person that no one wants to go on a road trip with because you’re stopping every like hour on the hour and every rest stop. But now is that because your brain is interpreting this as such? I know that there’s a physical manifestation obviously, but is that like have you trained your brain and to feel that way to interpret that as such? I would say yes because most of the time, even if it wasn’t intentional, like it’s kind of like a slippery slope. It’s like I almost didn’t make it that one time. I’m going to plan ahead. And then what starts to happen, especially if you’re like, all right, Sarah Haag:                  18:54                your bladder is filling up. You kind of feel like you need to go and you go to the bathroom and it came out and it’s like, all right, so that was nice and normal. But then imagine that time where you’re like, hold on, I almost didn’t make it, but you were stretched this much. You’re going to start going when the bladder stretches this much. And then pretty soon if you let it so you’re like, Ooh, now I’m going down here. Now I need to go sooner. And this is one way you can tell this is happening. And it can happen sometimes without ending up with a diagnosis of urgency, frequency or incontinence. But where you get to the bathroom and you feel like you’ve got a goal, but then nothing happened. Goals, like it’s the smallest tinkle and you’re like, I thought it wasn’t gonna make it, but that’s ah, that’s all that’s in there. And so that was like big urge little output. That’s kind of a mismatch. And that’ll happen sometimes. Sarah Haag:                  19:48                But like if you’re paying less than that, that’s not much more than your poster board then a nice healthy post void residual. So you don’t have to empty at that point if you’re bladder’s saying, empty me now. And that’s all that’s in there. Yeah. So it’s kind of like you’re the sensitivity of your bladder has turned way up. Just like how we would compare that to the pain. So the sensitivity is turned way up so that it takes less of a stimulus in the bladder itself to trigger that feeling of you have to go, even though the bladder is barely full. Sarah Haag:                                          And there’s actually some interesting conversations with urgency and frequency in that feeling of extreme urge, can that be considered a pain? And so it’s kind of interesting conversation because there is normal, there is a normal sensitivity of normal urge, but when that urge becomes pathological, yeah. Sarah Haag:                  20:47                Too bothersome. Does that crossover into it? Distressing emotional experience? I would think so. Like can you imagine if you’re like on a train or something like that and you have to really, really, you have, you’re having that urge. I mean, that’s very distressing dressing. That’s very distressing. That’s like you’re suffering. So if you have someone like that what do we have them do? So they keep a diary, which you can get on the home health section and we’ll have a link to that in the show notes. You basically ask them to keep track of things for a couple of days. I tend to keep it simple with what are you drinking and when and when, when are you going to the bathroom? If people are willing to measure, that’s the best, but not many people are willing to measure. Sarah Haag:                  21:37                So what I try to have them do is to kind of come up with their own plan. And I tell them this is not an exact science because you’re not measuring, but that’s okay because if you have a strong urge, which is kind of a lot, but you have like a little tinkle, that’s kind of a mismatch. If that only happens after your third Mimosa, okay, that might actually be like a normal bladder thing. Do you know what I mean? So we kind of look at things that they’re bringing in that may or may not be irritating to them. We look at are they getting enough fluid and bladder loves, loves water. But the first thing most people cut out if they’re having urgency, frequency or incontinence is water is they cut out their water. It’ll almost always backfires. Sarah Haag:                  22:19                So don’t do that anyone watching. It also makes you constipated, which you can increase your urgency and frequency. So, so yeah, so surprise. Everything needs to work well to work well. Okay. But yeah, so you kind of look at that and I just look for patterns and then I have people try to change one thing at a time. If all you’re drinking his coffee all day, but actually you have good data, good parts of your day and bad parts of the day. Is it the coffee? Because if you’re drinking coffee all day, you’re probably not going to be very nice to me if I say, how about you stopped drinking coffee? Um, emotional response up. So you just kind of look at it. It’s like, Oh, when does this happen? What do we need to change? And it can really help you narrow down. Is it really urge incontinence? Is it actually just frequency and they’re not leaking like they thought they were or you know, is this primarily a stress incontinence issue? Karen Litzy:                                           Well, so it sounds to me like there’s not a lot of hands on work there. Sarah Haag:                                          No, no, it’s more behavioral. Susan:                          23:27                Do you ever use pelvic tilting to get the posterior versus anterior pelvic floor? Sarah Haag:                                          So that’s a neat work with from Paul Hodges Group. So however you’re sitting, most of us are Slouchy, just do a pelvic floor contraction, however your brain tells you to do that, do it and just feel where you feel it. But then if you get yourself in a situation where you like get more of that Lumbar Lordosis, and so like you stick your tail out, you get more lumber lordosis and then you do the exact same thing. So you’re not changing your cue. For most people it’s cuts to the front. And it’s kind of neat because one of the things, one of my pet peeves is when we were talking about earlier is my pelvic floor therapist get tunnel vision and are just doing pelvic floor exercises, but not reintegrating it into how they’re, they’re using their body. Sarah Haag:                  24:18                So if you have a runner who’s a chronic but Tucker and she’s leaking out of the front, obviously, how would it feel if you like got those glutes back a little bit? Because you can’t run and Kegel at the same time. You can’t, you can try. It’s not going to go well. And certainly not for like a 5K and let alone not a marathon. So changing how that is biased because most of us don’t think about the pelvic floor until you have a problem, right? But they’ve been working, right? They’ve been doing their thing. You’re using them when you walk up those stairs you’re using them when you’re getting up off the floor. So they do something, the key goal is like your bicep curl. You want a stronger bicep, you’re going to do some curls, you want a stronger pelvic floor, you’re going to have to do some pelvic floor exercises. Sarah Haag:                  25:07                But that’s not your management plan. You kind of want to, someone said it yesterday, kind of like the core muscles are there like automatic, like when you get ready to do something you don’t think, okay transversus were good. Like it just all happens and you want to kind of get the pelvic floor back into that system and make sure it’s strong enough and coordinated enough to do its part. So you don’t think about it. Dave:                            25:37                So along those lines then, would you say that if somebody is more lordotic, they’re more likely to engage the anterior floor and then flat back more of the posterior floor? Sarah Haag:                  25:47                That tends to be what they’re finding on like EMG studies and what I will see clinically with people if they do a ginormous buttock. It’s really interesting if you’re like, how’s your breathing when you do that and, and how good is your squat, let’s say when you do that. And it’s like, Eh, it is what it is. I’m like, okay, so what if we do kind of take it into where some people, especially if they’ve been told by other practitioners to like watch your Lordosis, it’s kind of huge. Which isn’t really a thing. But you know, they kind of, they’re kind of like going in there, they’re like, I’m so scared but it kind of feels good and then you have them do that movement or try that exercise. Usually they’re like, that was way easier than I thought it was going to be. Sarah Haag:                  26:30                But again, if it’s not working, then we try something else cause everyone’s anatomy is different. Sometimes if they have a lumbar issue, getting into the ideal position for their pelvic floor, may or may not be easy for them, at least at first. But I think you need to play around with how it feels and how it’s functioning as opposed to, I mean, I’ve been guilty of it in my career of like, ah, you need more or less of what you’re doing with your spine and were just different. So it’s where it works best is where it should be. Jamie:                          27:03                So for a lot of the outpatient conditions and orthopedic setting, there’s still an emphasis on giving some kind of qualitative documentation to the muscle contraction, whether it’s a manual muscle test or something like that for payment purposes. So what are some strategies or tips for clinicians to be able to take that palpation externally and then relate that into their strengthening documentation? Sarah Haag:                  27:29                So if you’re just checking externally, like just palpating outside, it’s like a plus minus like, Yup, I felt it. Uh, they couldn’t find it. So kind of plus minus, cause you can’t give it more than that. We also have to remember, so when I write about pelvic floor strength in my documentation, I have a number I can put and you can grade it. You have to do that internally, which is why if you’re like, ah, we need to know more, refer him to a friend or go to the training. But I usually give a lot more information. So like, all right, so they, you know, they had like a three out of four, three out of five squeeze. The relaxation was not very coordinated and kind of slow, but then their subsequent contractions were five out of five. Sarah Haag:                  28:09                All right. Do you know what I mean? We have to, because of payment and insurance and all of those things, we have to write something down. So what I do is I write down what I find and I’m happy to talk about it. So if you want to deny it, I can talk vagina all day with you. And I have, and their questions usually get shorter and shorter. Um, because really they’re asking for information that isn’t necessarily the most helpful. So if you’re checking an externally plus minus, but also I’ve had people who five out of five but still incontinent, Sarah Haag:                  28:41                So then they’re like, well they’re not weak but you put down, you’re going to do strengthening. I’m like, well yeah, because it’s more of a strengthening, not just a strengthening with a functional goal attached to that, if that makes sense. So sometimes it’s more words, but don’t be shy about one. Well, first of all, please be honest, be as accurate as you can be, but also don’t be shy about doing the best care and be willing to stand up for it. If it gets denied. It’s not cause you gave crappy care likely. I mean, do you know what I mean? I’m like, I dunno how long you practice, hopefully. Good. But if you get denied, it’s not necessarily key because you gave bad care or even did a bad note. It’s because they decided they weren’t going to pay based on something. Hopefully logical that you can talk about. You can always appeal. So don’t let payments scare you away from giving the best care. Sarah Haag:                  29:36                Sorry. Another soapbox of mine.  So that was urge incontinence. Stress Incontinence. Karen Litzy:                                           So let’s talk about that because I think that gets the more airtime, so to speak. So that’s when you see the crossfitters are the weightlifters or there’s a great gymnast pitcher yesterday going backwards where you there backwards over the pommel horse, not the pommel horse. It’s the worse just a horse. A spurt. Like it was, yeah. And you’re just like, that could be photo shopped, but also it probably isn’t. Yeah. Or like we’ve all seen like the crossfit videos where women are peeing and then everyone high fives them because they worked so hard that they peed, which, you know, not normal. We know that that’s been addressed by a lot of a pelvic health physical therapists. Karen Litzy:                   30:32                So I would like to know first I think we just gave the definition of stress incontinence, but I’ll have you give the definition quickly. But then I’d like to go back to something that the question that Dave had asked about the positioning and how that works within weightlifting or within, you know, waited or loaded movements. But go ahead and give the definition of stress incontinence first. Sarah Haag:                                          So stress incontinence is basically when there’s an increase in intrabdominal pressure that is greater than the closure of pressure of the urethra. And you have some sphincters as well as the pelvic floor helping keep all of that closed. But if you increase the pressure enough on the insides, and that’s why you hear, and again, it’s primarily women, but also a lot of men after prostate surgery, they cough and you get a spurt or you know, you jump and you feel it come out. Sarah Haag:                  31:21                Those are usually because the closer pressure has gone down or the intra abdominal pressure has gone up. Karen Litzy:                                           Okay, great. So now what does that look like? For the average physical therapist who’s not a pelvic health therapist. And let’s say they are seeing someone for hip pain and you ask them, are you ever incontinent? Or if they are, you know, heavy lifters are, they are adding load and they say, oh yeah, but that’s normal. Or they have low back pain and they say, yeah, but that’s normal. Everybody does it at my crossfit box or whatever at my gym. So how do you then, if you’re not you, you are someone who’s not a pelvic health therapist, how do you address that? Sarah Haag:                                          Well, first of all, what all of us should know while incontinence is super common, it is not normal. Sarah Haag:                  32:16                Not ever being dry is normal. So we need to get away from this idea that like, well, everyone’s doing it. It’s like does that make you want to do it? Like I feel like, no, I feel like no is the answer. So first of all, just, and sometimes they don’t know that. Like, I know that in some like young girl gymnastic teams, like the color of their leotards are chosen to like, not show the pee because they’re incontinent that young. Yeah. And I see a lot of women as adults sometimes before they’ve had babies sometimes after, right? So like what’s the, what came first? But they’ve had lifelong issues with what’s essentially public flourish. She’s with incontinence, sometimes pain with intercourse, all of those things. Competitive gymnasts, competitive cheerleaders. Dancers tend to be probably the biggest, runners or another group. Sarah Haag:                  33:12                There’s been some studies, there’s one study and I cannot recall it. I mean, it’s probably like 15 years old now. We’re 100% of this division one female track team reported urinary symptoms. 100%. Like every girl. So common. Heck yeah. Normal. So many girls. Yeah. So the biggest thing if you’re not a pelvic floor therapist is to check out their function. So if they can identify when they’re having issues, it’s when I get to this particular weight or it’s when I get to mile 17. Okay. And I usually throw in, like if I ran 17 miles, I’m not really sure what my body would do. Like I dunno, but it still shouldn’t leak. But if you can find out where that breakdown in the coordination in the endurance and the strength and whatever it is happens and look at what’s happening there. Sarah Haag:                  34:04                Because if you can run 17 miles or you can lift 200 pounds without leaking, but then you do, you’re not, you’re not weak. Right? Like if you can do all of that, something’s happening there to make this happen. Cause if you can lift 200 pounds in that league, something’s working, it’s just not still working when you try to live 210. Okay. So let, let’s look at what’s changing or number of repetitions. Right? That’s what you’re looking at. Sarah Haag:                  34:52                So if you collapse your chest and which I would probably do after running 17 miles and I’m like this. And now what happens when I collapse what happens to my bottom half when I collapsed my shoulders? Well my butt just tucked. Cause I’m just trying to get through now. The funny thing is the breathing is also harder. So while I’m doing this as kind of a mechanism to keep going, it’s harder to breathe because nothing’s working diaphragm to have a full excursion, right? Yeah. So, so I like to look at if you’re running fine for 17 miles, I want to see you at mile 16. I want to see what’s changing over that mile. I want to see what you looked through my team. And can you, when you start to get to that point, can you make an effort to change something? Sarah Haag:                  35:32                Do you notice a change in your breathing when you’re lifting 210 instead of 200 and kind of look at it from that way cause you’re not going to kegel why you do that. What do you mean? Oh well say to like precontract and prime and all these things and, and that’s fine, but it’s like if we go back to the running, you’re not kegeling and all that time your pelvic floor after like 30 seconds is like, dude, you don’t want me to get that tired. Like it’s going to be like, we’re going to stop that now. So yeah. So the way I would approach that, if you’re not me, yes and not going to do a vaginal exam, is you look at their performance. So if they said, I have knee pain when I do this, when I go from 200 to 210, they’re my squat. Sarah Haag:                  36:13                How they do, they’re looking at the mechanics. You would look at what’s happening, what is different? Cause you know, the joint can do it, you know, the muscles can do it. What’s changing. And you would address that. So it’s really no different if they can tell when they’re leaking, you’re just looking what can, what are the things that can change it? Usually the tail lift and looking at their breathing or two really easy ways to go about it. Karen Litzy:                                           Okay. All right. That’s great. And, and, and that goes with that. Does that also work with, let’s say instead of you’re not a runner weightlifter, but you’re like a new mom or something like that and you’re okay, but then by the end of the day after you’ve been maybe lifting the baby or you know, doing whatever you’re doing it, it doesn’t necessarily have to be sport related is what I’m saying. Sarah Haag:                  37:06                I think about like function, but definitely, I mean, you asked about, but no, just everyday if getting out of a chair makes you leak, that’s, but then it’s basically a squat. So you are, you’re looking at the activity that they’re having difficulty with and making small changes got in most cases. Karen Litzy:                                           So I think the biggest takeaway here for me is that not everything is solved by doing a kegel. Sarah Haag:                                          I think a lot of non pelvic health PT’s may have that, that misconception that if someone has incontinence, well Kegel time. Right? And that’s all you gotta do. That’s what most people do. If they go to the doctor and they mentioned it’s like, ah, you know, that’s pretty normal. It’s not, it’s common. And then they’ll be like, do some kegels and, and a lot of women and men don’t know how to do them. Sarah Haag:                  37:53                So then they’re just, I’m squeezing stuff and it didn’t work. And it’s like, Oh, before we get too far, can we check and see how you’re doing them? And I think that’s kind of a beautiful segway. So let’s say you have your new mom or you have your athlete or whatever and you are, you’ve tried some stuff, right? Cause none of this is life or death, right? I mean it’s fine to try some things. So already not doing anything about it. So trying to change up a couple of things is perfectly within your purview, especially again, you’re seeing them for hip or low back. It all, it’s all together. You’re good. But if it’s not changing, if it’s not getting better, if when you ask them, you know, can you contract your pelvic floor, what do you feel? They’re like, I got no idea. Sarah Haag:                  38:33                And they’re like, but please also don’t touch me there. Or are you touching there and you’re like, yeah, I don’t feel anything either. And I’ve used all my cards but I don’t know what to do. That’s when you refer. Because just like any other things, somebody coming to see you as a physical therapist, you’re going to do some things. And if those things are not working or they’re getting worse, you’re going to try something different. Or call the doctor or refer to a friend. Right? So if you change some things and you’re like, I’m amazing, they’re all better. Awesome. Do they need to go to pelvic floor therapy? I’d say no if their incontinence resolves or their pain resolves. But sometimes with especially we see it a lot more in I would say the more active athletic population is a pelvic floor that’s more like this. Sarah Haag:                  39:19                So it’s like tight and there’s a hundred people call it hypertonic or high tone or short pelvic floor and all these things and basically in my brain, the way I categorize it is like you should be able to contract your pelvic floor and you should be able to let it go. And we can all get better at that. But if you’re like, I’m here, how good is my contraction going to be? Because I’m not showing you my pelvic floor. Like it’s not going to, it’s going to taste like it’s going to not move very much. But if you get them to relax more or they’re like, oh, I didn’t know that was there, that’s better. Then you all of a sudden you have a good contraction. Karen Litzy:                                           How do they relax? Do you just say relax? Sarah Haag:                  40:01                Before somebody tells him to relax, the worst thing to do is be like, can you just relax? So I try to have them feel the difference between contracting and not contracting. Because what will happen and people use what the traps all the time is like. So like, ah, so much tension. All right. Again, telling you to relax your shoulders. Things I didn’t think of that. But if you squeeze and let go like as a little bit of like, Oh, I feel that, oh, oh there’s some more space there. So I start with that. Okay. The pelvic floor. But again, if they’re like, I just don’t know, that’s something that is so easy to feel with a vaginal or rectal exam. So that’s where it’s like, ah, you’re having some trouble. I would recommend, would you see my friend for one visit have this exam, they’re checking out your muscles and just see if he can feel that relaxation and then come up with like cueing or a plan that works for them. Sarah Haag:                  40:54                Cause it’s not just about like slacking everything out. It’s really feeling that that relaxation, that lengthening of the muscles there and being intentional about it. You don’t want to lie there would hope like maybe it’ll let go at some point. Audience member:                               So you talked about kegeling and what about dosage or prescription and quality versus quantity and how you prescribe that to your patient. Sarah Haag:                                          There is no hard and fast rule as to like how many, how much. So that’s where, again, I would have them do some and see how the coordination goes. Cause if they’re otherwise neurologically intact and they’re kind of getting it, how many do they need to do? Sarah Haag:                  41:57                I would say it’s not unreasonable to go kind of basic strength and conditioning principles of, you know, like I know eight to 12 reps three times a day. That’s an okay starting point. And actually, I don’t know if you know this, so I’m writing a book on incontinence and the PT people have it, but it’s the editor just asked me, she’s like, well, since we don’t have like a hard and fast number, do we, should we put that in there? And I said, I think we do. So that’s a good starting point. Not everyone would be able to do that right off the bat, but also some people be able to do that and they’re not getting better. So it’s kind of like let’s start here and see what happens. And then you can kind of titrate it up and down. If I do an exam on somebody and they can’t contract for 10 seconds, they can only contract for five, I’m not going to have them contract for 10 seconds at home. I would probably honestly in that case, have them go, I need you to make sure you can feel the good contraction. So you actually also asked about quantity and quality. I want quality, because all of us can do 100 crappy ones. I’m not sure how much it would help. So really looking to be like, okay, so I feel that contraction and I’m breathing Sarah Haag:                  43:10                and I usually actually have stopped counting seconds. I’ve had people go by breath, so if you, let’s do it. We’re going to squeeze our pelvic floors and you’re just going to keep squeezing as you breathe in and breathe out normally. Nothing, nothing fancy. And then keep squeezing while you breathe in and breathe out and let go. And what I hope you felt was a squeeze to start with maintaining the squeeze. Some people will feel kind of like a little, a little wave as they breathe, which is not unusual. But then when you stop the breathing and you let go, you should feel that let go. So if you didn’t feel that, let go. I usually say that’s one of two things without feeling right. I can’t tell without feeling is that you got tired and you lost it or you forgot to let go. Sarah Haag:                  43:51                So that’s okay. Have a wiggle reset and try again. Because if you’re not feeling the contraction, what are you doing? Like you might as well take a walk because then you’ll actually be using your pelvic floor. I like going with the breath because a lot of people like to hold their breath when they’re like, they’ll do like they’ll just suck at it and it, you’ll feel a lift, but it’s just a vacuum. It’s not really your muscles doing their thing. So by doing the breathing, if you breathe in and out twice nice and slow, it’s 10 seconds. You don’t have to count. So if I have you do four of those, you just have to like count on fingers, two breaths come and arrest for two breaths. So much easier to keep track of. And then people actually do them. Cause if I could tell them to do ten second holds, one, two, three, four, five, six, nine, done. And that’s not really helpful either. So like the too slow breaths. Now you’re breathing and don’t have to count and you’re going to stay honest. Audience member:       44:57                So trying to bring this into the neuro world for someone who’s post stroke and has stress incontinence or they’ve had neural damage of some sort and have stress incontinence, Are there any PNF techniques where you can incorporate the pelvic floor to help with that? Sarah Haag:                                          I haven’t had PNF stuff since college. And I’m old. So what I would say is, is if I’m recalling that they go through movement patterns and as you’re doing those things, there are things will be happening on the pelvic floor. It seems to make sense. What specifically, I don’t know, but if you’re kind of working more with that tone in general, I’ve only had a couple of patients come see me like post CVA and feeling their pelvic floors is amazing because while it makes perfect sense that one side might be like hypertonic are nonfunctioning until you feel it. Sarah Haag:                  45:49                It’s like, wow, that’s so cool. Like once I totally normal springy, they can contract and relax the other side just like they’re, they’re hemiparetic arm. It’s cool. With stuff like CVA or neurological involvement, you really want to make sure you’re on board with the physicians and you know that bladder function is still intact because depending on where the stroke is and what exactly happened or where the spinal cord injury is, you don’t want to mess around with screwing up the bladder or the kidneys. So if they’re not going to the bathroom or they’re only leaking during transfers, that could be stress incontinence or it could be overflow incontinence because their bladder is so distended with the effort. So that’s something you would really want to make sure you talk with their nurse or their attending physician and make sure, so how are things working? Sarah Haag:                  46:38                Because the other thing we need to remember is a lot of things we’re still working on people who have had neurological insults, right? So once you’re like, okay, bladder is relaxing as it fills, contracting, as it empties, it’s emptied fine. We’re not worried about this being overflow incontinence. I would actually start to incorporate stuff like blow before you go. Where you’re managing it the same way you would for someone not having a stroke, but half of that, the beam continent and actually going to the bathroom it seems, I can make it sound very simple, but I have a slide and of course that I teach where it has all the like the tracks up to the brain and all the tracks who, the spinal cord to the bladder. But we got the sphincters, we got the detrusor, all of this stuff just happens. Sarah Haag:                  47:25                And when I click the slide from this beautiful simple picture, it’s just font about this big, explaining all of the complex things that are happening so far as we know. So again, as long as they’re, bladder is functioning on that basic level where it knows when to empty and it can empty, I would treat him like a anyone else and not assume that it’s just because of a high tone pelvic floor on that one side. That’s the issue. But if you get that person and you do your PNF, please tell me what happens. And if it changes their incontinence, I would really like to know. Karen Litzy:                                           And when you’re looking at the bladder function, that is something the physician is doing through an ultrasound, is that how that works? How did they do that? Sarah Haag:                                          They can do it through an ultrasound so that that they are, they can look mostly at like post void residual. Sarah Haag:                  48:12                But then also there’s a test called neuro dynamics. And this is a test that involves, a catheter and there you’re a threat. And then a probe and another orifice down there to help measure for intra abdominal pressure. And it’s kind of a neat test. If someone wanted to do it on me for free, I would probably do it. But they’re also looking at an EMG the whole time. So they start to fill up your bladder was sailing so you know how much is in there and you’re awake for this test because they go tell us when you, when you feel the first urge to go and they mark where that is. And so you can see how much fluid is in there. And I’m like, tell us when you get like the, I should go to the bathroom now urge. And they mark that and then they’re like, okay, tell us when you can’t take it anymore. Sarah Haag:                  49:00                And they mark that. So then they know how much your bladder can truly hold. But also looking at what’s your detrusor doing, which is the smooth muscle around your bladder, what’s happening to your pelvic floor, where is the weakness? And usually when they’re full, sometimes they’ll have people cough to see if anything leaks or if any sphincters happen or sphincters what they’re up to. But it’s, it’s involved. But there’s a lot of good information. And interesting side note is that if you do so, that’s really I think really helpful for like a neurologic population just to make sure. I did have one patient I was lucky enough to work with a PT who became a physiatrist who specialized in neurogenic bowel and bladder and she let me come down to watch  urodynamics of one of my patients who was really against cathing. Sarah Haag:                  49:46                He didn’t want to cath. So she came down, she brought him down to the urodynamics and as it and cause he’s like, I am voiding 400 to 600 milliliters every time I have a bowel movement. And like that’s pretty good. I mean like most are four to 600 CCS and turns out it was only under very high pressure. He was already getting reflects into his kidneys and after he voided four to 600 CC’s, he still had four to 600 left, which is too much. So even though he was having some output, that was the test that really made it clear to him like, oh, it’s coming out, but it’s not healthy. Like I need to cath. Jamie:                          50:41                What are some of the considerations that you might go through in your thought process when you’re dealing with a male versus a female pelvic pain or incontinence issue? Sarah Haag:                  50:53                That’s a lot. I could talk for days on that. Well I’m not sure. When you’re talking about considerations. We need to take into consideration our patient preference and what they’re comfortable with. We can tell when our patients are uncomfortable or we should be able to but then kind of try to work out, they might not want to talk to me about this, but who can I get that they would, cause a lot of people would assume that men aren’t really comfortable talking to females. But a lot of the men who come to see me, just want help, and we’ve had several male students come through and you know, they run into like women not wanting a male therapist to do it. Sarah Haag:                  51:36                It’s just finding that, right? Just like any other body part, finding the right person to help. But then if we go to, you know, bringing up those subjects, I don’t know that in my brain it’s so, so different. Male to female, you’re going to take into consideration their history for sure. I feel happy saying that because now with we have kind of like a gender spectrum, right? We have people who, who have transitioned in varying degrees and we have people who haven’t transitioned but totally identify with the gender. They weren’t assigned at birth and all of these things. So basically I take it functional. So can you just walk me through the issues you’re having, your questions, concerns when it’s a problem, if anything makes it better, does anything in particular make it worse? And then we problem solve from there? Sarah Haag:                  52:26                So I guess I didn’t really have a good, a good answer, man. Male to female. Their situations are usually different, but it’s kind of different across one gender or the other. Anyway. Is that kind of answer it? Yeah. Great question. Karen Litzy:                                           Well, thank you so much. Thank you. I think we covered a lot and I thank you guys for being here and I hope that you guys got a lot out of this and can kind of take this back to your patients now. So last question that I ask everyone and it’s so knowing where you are now in your life and your career, what advice would you give to yourself as a new Grad? Sarah Haag:                                          Ask more questions. To be honest on, I came out of school pretty much like, like the teachers know best and what I learned is right. Sarah Haag:                  53:16                And then when you get into the real world, I ended up thinking I was not very good at my job for awhile because like you would do what you were taught to do but it wouldn’t work. And then, you know, some things happen and I got older and more comfortable and when you start asking questions you realize there isn’t one answer. So if you start asking those questions, you’re part of, you’re part of the solution. By kind of pushing those boundaries and not like, I wish I would’ve just asked more questions sooner. I’d be so much smarter than I am now. Karen Litzy:                                           Where can people find you on social media if they want to get in touch with you? Sarah Haag:                                          Sarah Haig, PT on Twitter, you can find me on my website, www.entropy.physio and um, I mean Facebook, Sarah Hague. Sarah Haag:                  54:07                I don’t know what my picture looks like right now, but I’m friends with Karen, so if it says I’m friends with Karen, that’s probably me. Karen Litzy:                                           Awesome. And just so that everyone knows a lot of this stuff that Sarah spoke about, we will have links to it. We’ll have links to the home health section. We’ll have links to the testing, the urogenic testing. Is that neurodynamic testing? You could just send me a link or something about it. So we’ll have it all in the show notes. Thanks everyone for watching the live. We appreciate it and everybody, thanks for listening. Have a great couple of days. Stay healthy, wealthy, and smart. Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on iTunes!

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Steve Anderson on the show to discuss leadership coaching. Steve is an Executive Coach with Orange Dot Coaching and the host of the Podcast, Profiles in Leadership.  He is a former Board of Trustee for The Foundation for Physical Therapy and was the President of The Private Practice Section of APTA for 6 years between 2002-2008.  In this episode, we discuss: -Why you should invest in a coach -The importance of outside perspective when you’re pursuing excellence -How to be open-minded and gracefully accept constructive criticism -Redefining your daily operations with purpose and vision -And so much more! Resources: Steve Anderson Twitter Steve Anderson Facebook Steve Anderson LinkedIn Orange Dot Coaching Website Episode 197: The Graham Sessions with Steve Anderson Profiles in Leadership Podcast Optima: A New Health Company   A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode!    For more information on Steve: Steve Anderson is the ex-CEO of Therapeutic Associates which is a physical therapy company that consists of 90 outpatient clinics in Washington, Oregon and Idaho and a major hospital contract in Southern California.  He currently is an Executive Coach with Orange Dot Coaching and the host of the Podcast, Profiles in Leadership.  He is a former Board of Trustee for The Foundation for Physical Therapy and was the President of The Private Practice Section of APTA for 6 years between 2002-2008.  He was awarded the most prestigious award the Section gives out annually to a physical therapist, the Robert G. Dicus Service Award in 2010.   Steve received the APTA Leadership Advocacy Award in 2006 for his efforts in Washington D.C. and Washington State in the legislative arena.  In 2012 Steve received the Distinguished Alumnus Award from Northwestern University Physical Therapy School.   In 2016 Steve was awarded Physical Therapist of the Year by PTWA, APTA’s Washington State Chapter.   Currently Dr. Anderson works with business executives and their teams to improve their leadership skills and coaches them to improve communication skills and working together better as a team.  He lives on Hood Canal in Washington state near Seattle with his wife Sharon. Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy:                   00:00                Hey Steve, welcome back to the podcast. I am happy to have you on. So thanks for joining me today. Steve Anderson:            00:07                Well, thank you Karen. I'm very happy to be on and I'm looking forward to our discussion. Karen Litzy:                   00:13                Yeah. So last time you were on, we talked about Graham sessions and we'll have a link to that in the show notes to this podcast so people can kind of go back and learn more about that. But today we're going to be talking about the importance of having a coach. And first I'll swing it over to you if you want to kind of describe what you do as a coach and maybe what is your definition of a coach because there's a lot of coaches out there. Steve Anderson:            00:45                Okay. So what I am is I'm an executive coach and so that means that I deal mostly with leadership training and communication skills and things like that. So what I do specifically is I work with people that are running companies, CEO types, and executives that are in leadership roles. And so helping them develop their leadership and communication skills. But then I also like to work with teams. And so I have clients that I work with, the CEO and their executive staff on how they can communicate together and how they can work better as a team when they're trying to run their business and grow their business and so on. So that's pretty much what I do. You know, but the definition of a coach is just somebody to help you, you know, figure out. Steve Anderson:            01:40                I think what happens is we are in a very complex world and in our businesses and so on that they get very complex. I think a coach can help you simplify, look at things and simplified a little bit, help you kind of get out of your overwhelming rut, so to speak, and how you can start to look at things that are the smaller pieces and put that together and then just learn how to communicate with others and grow your business. And in a sense that doesn't seem so overwhelming or overpowering. I see a lot of my clients in that mode of, they're just, they're just overwhelmed and they've just got so much to do and so many things to look at that they don't really know what the next step is. Karen Litzy:                   02:27                Yeah, I hear you there. I definitely feel like that on almost a daily basis. Now before we kind of go into a little bit more about coaching, just so the audience gets to kind of understand where you're coming from. So you are a physical therapist and you owned a multisite practice, but let me ask you this. You could have retired and just kind of spent the rest of your retirement hanging out and you know, relaxing. So why make that shift to being a coach? Steve Anderson:            03:04                Sure. So I was a physical therapist and came up through a company called therapeutic associates where I started out as a staff therapist and then I became a clinic director and eventually became the CEO of that company. And it had a very unique ownership structure in the sense that every director of every clinic in that company is an owner in the company. So I was certainly not the only owner in the company. I was one of many owners in the company. And so when I retired, you know, I retired fairly young, I guess when you look at what age people retire these days. And so I thought, well, you know, what do I want to do from here? I don't feel like I'm ready to just do nothing. And so I kinda did the soul search and say, what are things that I really like to do? Steve Anderson:            03:54                And when it comes right down to it, what I really liked to do is I just really liked to grow leaders and work with people as they're going through their journey. And so, I went and got certified in a program called insights discovery, which is a communication system or style and started reaching out to people and I've got some clients and worked with them and learned, you know, how to improve and get better at what I was doing. And so now I do it on, you know, certainly a part time basis. I'm not doing this full time by any means, but it brings me joy. It feels like I have a purpose and it's something that I just really look forward to doing. Karen Litzy:                   04:39                I think that's such a great transition from the work you were doing as a physical therapist to the work that you're now doing as a coach. And for me, it gives a lot to think about because oftentimes, especially as a physical therapist, I know I felt this way when I graduated from college was, okay, I'm going to start working for a company and then I'm going to work there until I retire. And then that's it. So oftentimes, you know, it's hard for us to think far ahead, but being able to hear stories like yours I think can inspire a lot of people to say, Hey, wait a second. Like there's more to retirement or there's more to when, maybe whenever it is, you feel like your clinical work as a physical therapist is maybe run its course that you can use your physical therapy degree and you can use information, you can seek out new information in order to start a whole new career, but you're still firmly rooted in the physical therapy world. Steve Anderson:            05:43                Right. I think you bring up a really great point in the sense that, you know, you don't, when you come out of school and you start your profession, start your career, you know, you can't see often that thing that you want to do. In other words, it's hard to visualize what exactly I want to do and what exactly I want to be. And I see new professionals coming out kind of tortured with that a little bit. Like they wanted to do something but they can't see it other than just the day to day. You know, we're working with the patient. So I can just share my journey a little bit in the sense that, you know, I was an orthopedic physical therapist and I worked hard at being good at that skill and then I became a director and I realized that I really liked working with the team and working with people and people don't always, they think I'm just messing with them when I say this, but I was kind of a reluctant leader. I didn't go in thinking that this is what I want to do, this is how it's going to look. And, I just kind of evolved into that leadership role. And then as I took steps going through my career, all of a sudden I was voted to the CEO of a very large company at 41 years old. And to be honest with you, I was scared shitless. Karen Litzy:                   07:03                I mean, I would be. Steve Anderson:            07:06                Yeah, I was excited to be in this position, but I'm like, Oh my gosh, I mean, you talk about imposter syndrome and I was like, what do I do now? Everyone thinks I'm going to have the answers. So at that point I didn't really know what coaching was or what coaching services wasn't. As a matter of fact, it was fairly a new concept to have a coach. And so I didn't have an opportunity to reach out to one and I didn't really know what to do. And so when I look back on that time, gosh, I could've really used a good coach. And so what I did was I looked for other ways to try and improve my position or my skills. And so I took a few college level or I mean graduate level MBA courses and they were okay, but they weren't really, you know, just resonating with me too much. Steve Anderson:            08:01                And so then I eventually found this group called Vistage and you may have heard of that, but that's an international group where they have CEOs that work together usually 12 to 15 in a group. They meet on a monthly basis and they basically just learn from each other and help solve each other's problems. And so it's like a group coaching, so set up and I was in that for seven and a half years and really, really learned a lot from that because I had, you know, peers to bounce things off or like could get vulnerable with you. Got to know him really well. And, I think when you can trust somebody and work with someone to get to that level of vulnerability, I think that's where the learning really takes place. Karen Litzy:                   08:50                And that group that was multidisciplinary group, that wasn't just specifically for therapists or even just for health care, is that correct? Steve Anderson:            08:58                Exactly. In fact, I was the only CEO in that group from healthcare. And then they make sure that there's no competitors or you're not competing with anybody in that group. And so you start out kind of with people you don't know. And over a period of time you start to know and trust each other. And, and over a longer period of time you can really, you know, really get down to things that you have a tough time talking to most people about because you've really gotten to know these people. So I look at that as kind of a coaching relationship and the fact that my clients that I work with now, once they get to know me and once they trust me, you know, they can tell me the thing that they're afraid of or they can tell me the things that they don't know, without looking weak to the people they lead or without, you know, being their fear of, you know, people thinking maybe they don't really know what they're doing, but they can share that with the coach. And then we can get down to the real nitty gritty of that and what that means and how to work through that. Karen Litzy:                   10:08                And it sounds like you were able to take what you learned there and combine it with what you learned through your career and then the extra courses taken after retirement to kind of hone your individual coaching skills in order to better grow your clients. Steve Anderson:            10:30                Right. And I think the emphasis on that scenario you just discussed was the experience. I think the experience you can't buy experience, you can't, you know, like when I look back on mistakes I made when I had less experience, you know, I wish I could go back and do those again cause I think I would do them a lot better. But yet that's how you learn. So hopefully a coach has the experience to help you, say this happened to me and this is how I went through it. And, and this is how I can see you maybe, you know, getting there. I do question or scratch my head sometimes when I see, cause I do see business coaches that have never run a business. Steve Anderson:            11:18                So that always kind of makes me feel like, well, you know, I want somebody who's been in the trenches. I want somebody who has worked through this before and can help me see some ways through it as opposed to someone who's just read a lot of books and knows all the catch phrases and the authors and so on. But I think the experience is the key there. And if we look at it from the clinical side, you know, if on the clinical side as a physical therapist, we probably refer to it more as a mentor, maybe then a coach. But same thing there. You want somebody who has experience and who has seen, you know, tens of thousands of patients and has that experience that you don't have that can help you maybe see through some things from their experience. And to me that's what makes it a really good mentor and a really good coach. Karen Litzy:                   12:12                Yeah, I would agree with that. 100%. And you're right, there's nothing worse than seeing coaches advertise their services and they've had a business for less than a year. So, let's talk about pros and cons of having a coach. Let's get practical here. So what are the pros? So if someone's out there looking for a coach and they're on the fence, what are some pros to having a coach? Steve Anderson:            12:43                Well, again, I think I said a little bit earlier, but I think a good coach can help you simplify what you're trying to accomplish. You know, I think a good coach can look at a complex situation and help you make it simpler. You know, coaches can be your external eyes and ears and provide a more accurate picture of your reality and recognize fundamentals that you have and that you can improve on. And then just breaking down some actions that you do to make them more practical. To me, one of the things that I work a lot with my clients with is it seems so simple, but communicating with others is so powerful. And if you really know how you communicate yourself or what motivates you and how you come across, and then you really get to know the people that you're communicating with and what resonates with them, then you construct your language and you construct your behavior in a way that connects with them. Steve Anderson:            13:51                Because I can think that maybe my approach is I totally get it and I totally understand what I'm saying and I can look at the person across from me and they're looking at me like, you know, so I'm not connecting with them. So I have to know how to communicate that. And, you know, as we talk about it here, it seems simple, but I think there's a real skill to that. And I think there's a real ability to kind of craft your message in a way that connects with people. Karen Litzy:                   14:26                Yeah. And I think whenever you talk about relationships, whether it be a personal relationship, a business relationship, the thing that tends to break it down more than anything else is lack of clear communication. Right? Steve Anderson:            14:47                I was just going to say, and it's like if you look at your family or you look at your people in your business, I've always believed that you don't treat everybody the same. I mean, you have to be fair, but when we're talking about communication, in other words, the way that I would approach one employee could be very different than another depending on who they are, and you know, how they communicate. And so I think a really good leader is able to go in and out of these different styles, I guess, of communication that resonate with that person. And it's not the same for everybody. Karen Litzy:                   15:29                Yeah. And it's funny, I was just about to bring that up because I was going to ask you a question of, let's say we'll take a scenario here. You're the CEO of your physical therapy business and you've got two people working in your front desk and you've got four physical therapists, and let's say you, I don't know, you notice that you have an unusually high cancellation rate with your patients unusually high. And so you kind of want to get to the bottom of it. So how you would speak perhaps to the people working at your front desk may be a little different than how you would speak to the therapist because they have different roles in your business, right? Steve Anderson:            16:18                Absolutely. You have a different message for them. And, even when you look at your four physical therapists, let's say, out of those four physical therapists, you have an analytical person who thinks in very analytical terms. Well then the way to approach that would be to talk about the cancellations and no shows from a data perspective. You know, here's the numbers. Here's what it used to be. Here's what we want it to be here. You know, so you talk in very analytical ways. You may have someone else that has a real, you know, that they have more, they have a real caring about people in their feelings approach. And so you might talk to them about that situation and don't talk about analytics, but you might talk about, look at what our patients are missing. Look what we're not, we're not reaching their potential. We're not, you know, touching their hearts, you know, or whatever. So you talk more in those terms and then, other people, you will have different approaches. So I think that you have to know your people well enough to know that sitting in a meeting with six people, I'm giving the exact same message and expecting all of them to embrace it and have it resonate with them all at the same time is probably unlikely. Karen Litzy:                   17:35                Gosh, it's so much more complicated than it seems at the surface, isn't it? Steve Anderson:            17:40                Well, it is, but I think that that's what most of us feel. And that's where I think a coach can come in and say, okay, it’s complicated, but we can make it simple. It's a step by step, day by day thing that we can break down. And then it's just like anything else, once you understand kind of the process, then it's practice and you just practice and you practice and you get better and you make some mistakes and yet you do some gaps. And yet, you know, you put your foot in your mouth. Sometimes you learn from that. And over time that's where experience starts to build and improve. Karen Litzy:                   18:17                Yeah, I guess it is. Once you have that framework, can it become sort of a plug and play kind of practice thing? Steve Anderson:            18:28                It's good to break it down as simple as possible, but you're also dealing with humans. So just when you think that you just wouldn't, you'd think you've got it figured out. Someone will throw you a curve ball that you didn't see coming and so then you're going to have to, you know, readjust. But, it can be done much better than I think most people do it as just a general statement. You know, there's a great if I can put a plug in for this, a great Ted talk by Gawande, who most of us know who to go on deals and the title of the Ted talk is want to get good at something, get a coach. And he goes through the scenario of how, you know, he is a surgeon was thinking that he was doing pretty well and he improved and he improved. Steve Anderson:            19:20                And then he got to a point where he just couldn't, he felt like he'd hit his limit. He just wasn't improving much after that. So his question was, well, is this as good as it gets? Is this how I'm going to be? And I'm pretty happy with that, but you know, does that mean this is where I'm at? And then he decided to go back to Harvard medical school and hire a retired professor who was a surgeon and had him come in and watch one of his surgeries. And as he's doing the surgery, he says, Oh man, I'm killing this. This is going so well and I probably just wasted the guy's time and the guys and my money. Cause what's he going to tell me? This was going great. And then the guy came back with a whole two full pages of things that he could work on. Steve Anderson:            20:09                And he was kind of taken aback from it at first. But then he started doing that and he said, and I broke through that limit. I mean, he said, I'm a way better surgeon now. My infection rates are down, my outcomes are better. You know, and that just proved to him that anyone has a coach. And then he looks at the sports world and says, why is it that the number one tennis player in the world and the number one golfer in the world, they still have coaches. If they're the best, why would they have a coach? Well, because they need that extra eyes and that extra set of ears and so on to kind of help them break through the next level and the patients. And so I do think that that all of us could benefit from a coach or on the clinical side, a mentor. And I just think it's a really good way to spend your time and money to get to the next level. Karen Litzy:                   21:01                Yeah. And, I love that you brought up that Ted talk. I'm familiar with that Ted talk. And you're right, it just shows that even when you think you're at the top of your game, to have that external eyes and ears on you because you don't know what you don't know. And so to have someone there to point that out in a constructive way and in a way that is going to make you improve, I think is the key. I think opposite, but as the person. So if I'm looking for a coach, I need to be mentally prepared for that person to maybe tell me things that are going to make me feel uncomfortable or that might hurt my feelings. I say that in quotes. But I think you have to be mentally prepared for change. Would you agree with that? As far as the people that you have coached in the past. Steve Anderson:            21:55                So, yes, you're exactly right. You know, as people that educate and all different ways, we know that the person who's going to learn something has to be in a position that they're ready to learn. In other words, they have to be open to the fact that they have to look at themselves and be willing to realize that there's things to learn and they need to be open to suggestion. And so, yes, I have had some clients where, you know, they kind of thought they were just doing really great and, you know, our discussions were more like them reaffirming, you know, that they did it right and that this is how it should be and whatever. And you're kinda on the other end of the lines, like, I'm okay, so then why am I on this call? Steve Anderson:            22:49                You know, so it's almost like they're using you to reaffirm to themselves how great they are. That has happened. But, it's rare. It doesn't usually happen. Usually the people that I work with are people that want to work with me because they want to get to the next level. They know that they and I don't really have any clients that are horrible at this. You know, it's kinda like Gawande said is it's people that are really functioning at very high levels but just want to get to the next level. And so, I think the people that are really bad at it are so bad that they don't even recognize that they need a coach or they can improve. I think the people that are the best clients are the ones that are functioning at a very high level. But no, they could maybe just get a little bit further, a little bit higher, if they had a boost or if they had somebody that could help them get there. Karen Litzy:                   23:48                Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And now we spoke about the pros. Let's talk about the cons. So I think maybe we might've just said one con that if you're not ready for a coach, then it might not work out so well for you. And that's coming from the person who's seeking. Right. So, yeah, I think you have to be really ready for it. And if you're not, then maybe it's not the right time, but are there any other potential cons that you can see? Steve Anderson:            24:19                Well, I think that, you know, the, the obvious one is it costs money, you know, and it takes time. You know, so, the way that I would answer that is yes. But then also, you know, look at how much money PT’s spend on con ed and going to conferences and things like that. That takes a lot of money and a lot of time too. So it is just a priority. And, you know, I believe that the return on investment, so to speak, is very high in coaching. Because you really are getting that one-on-one approach. So, and then the other mistake that I see people make sometimes is, you know, I work with a client for awhile and then they kind of say, Oh, okay, this is great. Let's stop now and I'm going to go work on this stuff and then I'll get back to you when I've had time to work on it, practice it. Steve Anderson:            25:15                And, I think that that's okay. But I do think that sometimes, just having a person continually working with you, even if it’s a lesser frequent time interval, I think it is good to reinforce that because it's hard to just take all this information and then drop everything and then just work on that without step-by-step approaches along the way. You know, it's kinda like I would make a reference to working with a patient that if you gave them a whole bunch of exercises and then say, okay, when you get all these exercises perfected, then come back and we'll go to the next one. Well, you can imagine what those exercises look like without some coaching along the way. If you returned in three months and said, okay, let's look at the exercises, you likely wouldn't even be able to recognize cause they changed them or they haven't done them. Right. And then they kind of, you know, one thing leads to another. Karen Litzy:                   26:12                Right. Or because they don't have the accountability, they don't do them at all. Steve Anderson:            26:17                Yeah, that's true. Karen Litzy:                   26:18                Right. So I think that's the other part of the coach. Steve Anderson:            26:22                Coaches will help you, you know, be responsible to help you, or be accountable is probably a better word. Karen Litzy:                   26:32                Yeah, absolutely. Cause I know like I have certainly done continuing education courses and things like that and you learn so much and you're all gung ho. Then a couple of weeks later you're like, what? I haven't been doing everything that I learned at that course or I haven't been as diligent let's say. Steve Anderson:            26:58                Yeah, exactly. Right. And, I think the other thing that's kind of scary when you start any new thing is that you've probably heard of the J curve. You know, whenever we change behaviors or we try and improve on something, we kind of go in this J curve, which is, if you can imagine what a J looks like, a capital J,  you start at a certain level and you dip down into the bottom of the J because you often sometimes get worse before you get better. And so it's that struggling time and that fumbling time and you just can't quite, you know, get it then, then you kind of come up on the other side of the right side of the J and then you reach a higher level. And so some people are unwilling or don't want to get into the bottom, bottom end of the J because it's frustrating. Sometimes you struggle and so, I mean some people would just rather, you know, go with the mediocrity and just keep going solid without the struggle. But sometimes you need to jump off the cliff and then get down into that lower J curve a little bit before you can really improve. Karen Litzy:                   28:09                And I think it's also sometimes if you've had this level of success, let's say the, you know, high level executives or entrepreneurs who have multiple six figure businesses, you know, they have this certain level of success and I think you can get a little complacent and you can think to yourself, well, I am doing well, I'm already successful. What do I need a coach to help me get more? Like I'm there already. I've made it. So what do you say to that kind of comment? Steve Anderson:            28:41                Well, it just depends on what you want to do. You know, earlier in my career there was this Harvard business review article that was kinda, I used it as my management Bible cause it was, it just resonated with me so much. And the story was about the owner of Johnsonville sausage. This was in the day of Johnsonville sausage was only a Wisconsin company. And people who's constantly knew about it, but no one else knew about it. And he described how he was making ridiculous amount of money. He was really successful. He was just, you know, kinda on the top of everything, but he couldn't leave the factory without people calling them all the time. He was working horrendous hours, you know, all these things were happening. And so on the outside you would look at him and say, wow, he's so successful. Steve Anderson:            29:37                And then he went through this whole series of changing how he did things. Then in the title of the article is how I let my employees lead. And he grew leaders within the company and they took on the security responsibility and accountability. And so, you know, the end of the story is, is that now Johnsonville sausages, there across the country and probably international, he works less hours, makes more money and is happier and he's ever been. So, you know, I sometimes, as you said earlier, we can't always see what the other side looks like, but we just have to realize that there could be a better way. And then there could be a bigger prize at the end if you’re just willing to go down that road. Karen Litzy:                   30:22                And I don't know many people who would argue against that. I think it's right. I mean that seems like it makes a lot of sense why to have working a little bit smarter, maybe still working hard but at least working smarter and making a better impact on the world, making a better impact with your patients. You know, being able to grow your business or your practice and seeing more patients help more people. So I think that another misconception when it comes to I really need a coach is that the coach is just for you and that no one else is going to benefit from it. Right. But that's not true, is it? And on that note, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor and be right back. Karen Litzy:                   31:13                Are you interested in a free opportunity to check in with the latest thoughts of other rehab leaders? Well, I've got one for you. There's a new online rehab therapy community designed for the intersection of the clinical and business sides of rehab. It's the rehab therapy operational best practices forum, catchy name, right? It's all about habits and initiatives that juice up your attendance, revenue, workflows, documentation, compliance, efficiency and engagement while allowing your provider teams to keep their eye on the prize. There are patients and outcomes. I personally believe that a better connected rehab therapy profession has the power to help more people jump in, subscribe and join the conversation. Today. You can find the rehab therapy operational best practices forum @ www.nethealth.com/healthy. Steve Anderson:            32:06                It's certainly not true that your influence and who you work with and who you touch on a daily basis will greatly, you know, benefit from you being better at your job. And a lot of times it comes down to just helping you see, helping you find ways to resonate with what you're doing. I'll give you another personal example. So do you know who Seth Goden is? He's kind of a marketing guru guy. And, so, you know, I was in my CEO position and I'm overwhelmed like everybody else and there's so much to do and whatever. And so people used to always ask me, well, what do you do as a CEO? And I would always hesitate because it was like a kind of, what do I do? I answer emails, I talk on the phone, I go to meetings, I go, boy, is that, how boring does that sound? Steve Anderson:            33:04                You know? And so I happened to be hearing Seth godin and going at this lecture and he said that you have to find a way to even identify within yourself, what do I do and why do I do it? And he gave out some, some ideas and it really resonated with me and I got excited about. So I went home and I worked at it. And so now people say, when I was a CEO, they'd say, well, what do you do as CEO. And I go, I'm an ambassador for my company. I'm a storyteller and I grow leaders and that sounds a lot better. Karen Litzy:                   33:42                That sounds so much better than I go to meetings and answer emails. Steve Anderson:            33:48                Exactly. And so you know, so now when I'm doing, I'm sitting there trying to get through my emails. I say, okay, what am I doing? Oh, okay, this email was because I'm being an ambassador for my company. Or this email was cause I'm helping this leader grow. This phone call was for this. And so now those things seem to have more meaning and more purpose. And it just changes my mindset. And so I think that's what a good coach can help you see sometimes. Karen Litzy:                   34:18                Yeah. What a wonderful example. And I often wonder that I would even say to my patients sometimes who are like executives and CEOs, I was like, well, what do you do all day? And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, you get into work. And then what happens? And it's amazing how many people are like, I dunno, I mean I go to meetings and I answer emails and I'm on the phone quite a bit, like telling me what they're physically doing at their job versus what is the meaning behind the job. And I think that's the distinction that you just made there very well. Steve Anderson:            34:56                Yeah. And I'll give you another example. On the other end of the spectrum, I talked at a PT school once, gave a lecture and a young man came up to me and said, God, I was really impressed with what you were saying and it was a talk on leadership and I was really impressed with it and it seems like you really know what you're doing. And he goes, could I come and just shadow you for a couple of days? And I said, you mean just my CEO job? And he goes, he goes, yeah, I'd love to just follow you and see what you're doing. Whatever. I said, Oh yeah, you're going to be bored to death. I mean, what am I going to be able to show you? I mean, you know, I'm sitting at a desk, I'm doing that. He says, why? And he wouldn't drop it. Steve Anderson:            35:37                So I thought, well, what the heck? So here, this a PT student came and shadowed me for a day and a half and he went to meetings with me and he sat there when I was on the phone and he watched me get caught up. I mean, it was just, you know, he just hung out with me. And when he left he said, Oh, this was really great. I'm kind of thinking, God, I hope I didn't bore him to death. And I got an email from him about six years later and he said, Hey, you remember me, I followed you in whatever. And he says, I just wanted you to know that that day and a half set me on my course roots and my career and now I'm doing this and now I'm doing that. And so it had a huge impact on him. It was very gratifying and it made me feel really good, but I had no idea. So through his eyes, he saw things that I, you know, thought was mundane and day to day, but he saw things that he remembered and helped him, you know, find the career position that he wants. So that was a good story. Karen Litzy:                   36:38                Yeah. That's great. Yeah. And again, like you said, it's that external eyes and ears, you know, we often don't see what others see and you never know who's looking. You never know who's listening and you never know who's watching. Steve Anderson:            36:50                Right. Karen Litzy:                   36:51                So what great examples. Steve Anderson:            36:56                Yeah. And that's another great point is when you are in a leadership role, people are looking and watching and everything you do and everything you say, matter. And, you shouldn't take it lightly. You shouldn't be afraid of it, but you should realize that you probably have a lot more influence than you realize. And so recognizing that and being aware of that and trying to make that message better, benefits everyone in life. Karen Litzy:                   37:26                Yeah, totally. And now before we kind of wrap things up here, I have a question that I ask everyone and that's knowing where you are now in your life and in your career. What advice would you give to yourself as a new grad right out of physical therapy school? So pretend you're coaching yourself back in the day. Steve Anderson:            37:52                You know, I told this story earlier because I remember it like it was yesterday and I came out of school. I wanted to be, this good, you know, manual physical therapist as I could possibly be. And so I was doing a lot of extra study and study group work and so on. And I can remember driving home from one of those sessions, I was probably about two or probably two years out of school. And I remember almost becoming overwhelmed with how can I possibly be as good as I want to be, an understand all this information and hone my skills and see the diagnosis and so on, how I was just overwhelmed with it. And, so I look back and I got through it somehow, but I would have loved to have had a coach then or a mentor that said, no, you're doing exactly what you should do. Steve Anderson:            38:52                You're working on your craft, you're putting in the time and effort and then you just have to go step by step, day by day. As I said earlier, because I would never imagined I would someday be the CEO of a large private practice physical therapy company. It just had never entered my mind at that stage in my career. So instead of being overwhelmed with, you know, this knowledge I have to get in whatever, I just need to start my journey, keep going and keep, keep moving and putting in the time and effort and where I end up in or I evolve into, I may not be able to predict, but I just know, I just know it's going to be something exciting and fun. And as long as I make the right decisions along that journey, I can reach a level I would have never imagined I could reach. And I do see that in new professionals today and they're struggling with that, you know, a few years out of school. And so my advice to them as it would have been to myself is just keep moving forward, step by step. Take some risks, find some things that resonate and excites you and don't be afraid to try them and see where it leads. Karen Litzy:                   40:15                Great advice. And now before we go, let's first talk about your podcast and then where people can find you. So talk about the podcast. Steve Anderson:            40:27                Okay. Well, I just want to say on this podcast, how inspirational and how helpful you were to me. Because as you probably remember, I thought, well, maybe I should do a podcast and I believe I called you and asked you some questions and I had not a clue how to start it and what to do. And, I really, I commend you and thank you very much for helping me answer some of those early questions and so on. So my podcast is called profiles in leadership and I just try and focus on leaders and then how they lead and just learn something from discussions with each one of them. I've been doing it about a year and a half now, a little bit longer. It's great. I mean, I've gotten some really fun, fun interviews, some inside the professional physical therapy profession and some are outside. I'm doing more outside the profession lately, which is fun. And, again, people ask me, why do you do the podcast? And, I say, because I learned something every time I do one, you know, every time I talk to somebody, I've been around a long time and with my experience, I still learn something every time. So it's like that, that gets me in the jazz and I'm inspired by that. So that's why I keep doing. Karen Litzy:                   41:58                Yeah. And I also heard you say several times that it's fun, so why wouldn't you want to do something that's fun? Steve Anderson:            42:04                Exactly. And, and you improve. I mean, I heard somebody might've been Joe Rogan who said, you know, if you think I have a good podcast, you should listen to my first few. Karen Litzy:                   42:15                Oh my God. Steve Anderson:            42:16                I think we all start at a certain level and if you're not improving, then you probably need to get out. Karen Litzy:                   42:23                Yeah, probably Steve Anderson:            42:26                I'm doing it. I think mine are much better than my first ones were. So, you know, that keeps me going too in the sense that I, you know, we all like to get better. We all like self-mastery. If we're not improving, we're probably not not having fun. Karen Litzy:                   42:42                Yeah. I mean, like I look back at like the first couple of interviews that I did and it was like a straight up boring interview for a job that was not good. It was like, I was not showing my personality. It was very much like, so Steve, tell me about your job and what you do. And it was so, Oh my gosh. Yeah, it was not good. But you know, you got to start, like you said, you got to start somewhere. And I just took courses on public speaking and improv courses in order to help me improve because I knew where my limitations were and what needed to be done. But yeah, I can totally relate to that. The first couple are no good, not good, and it's not because the guests weren't great. It was because of me. Steve Anderson:            43:33                Well, but look at the risk you took. I mean, to me that's how you reach a higher level of excellence is you're willing to take the risk. You are vulnerable. You were willing to be on camera and on audio and stick your neck out there and, you know, struggle through it a little bit and you improved. And then now you're, you know, you should be very happy with where you're at now because you do a wonderful job. So that's to me what it takes. And if we relate it back to coaching, it's the same thing. It's yeah, I need to take a risk. You need to be vulnerable. You need to realize that, you know, with work time and effort and practice, you're going to get better. And that's what it's all about. Karen Litzy:                   44:19                Absolutely. Very well said. And where can people find you, find more about you and find more about your coaching business? Steve Anderson:            44:27                Sure. So, my podcast it's on all of the podcast platforms, but, probably the easiest way to find it is through iTunes. You just search for profiles with leadership, with Steve Anderson. I did some as I did with you early on. I was doing the videos. And so, I do have the video gallery. You can search YouTube for profiles in leadership with Steve Anderson and then also all my podcasts and all the videos that I've done are on my coaching website, which is orangedotcoaching.com and that's orange, the word dot coaching.com. And you can see my services there for coaching. And then if you go to click on the media center, that's where the podcast and the videos are stored. Karen Litzy:                   45:18                Perfect. And just so everyone knows, we will have all of that information on the show notes at podcasts.Healthywealthysmart.com. So one click, we'll get to all of Steve's information. So Steve, thanks so much for taking the time out today and coming on the podcast. I appreciate it. I appreciate you. So thanks so much. Steve Anderson:            45:37                Well, thank you Karen. And again, I just thank you for your early mentorship to me when I was trying to figure this all out and I haven’t forgotten that and I'm very appreciative that you're willing to help me. Karen Litzy:                   45:50                Anytime, anytime. You are quite welcome and everyone else, thanks so much for tuning in. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.   Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on iTunes!

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Ryan Estis on the show to discuss excellence in business. Ryan Estis has more than 20 years of experience as a top-performing sales professional and leader. As the former chief strategy officer for the McCann Worldgroup advertising agency, he brings a fresh perspective to business events. As a keynote speaker, Ryan is known for his innovative ideas on leading change, improving sales effectiveness and preparing for the future of work. In this episode, we discuss: -Three actionable tips to constantly reinvent your business -How to stay relevant and achieve excellence with changing customer expectations -Four key practices you should adopt to thrive and avoid stagnation -Why you need to reframe problems in order to produce lifetime customers -And so much more! Resources: Ryan Estis Website Ryan Estis Facebook Ryan Estis LinkedIn Ryan Estis Twitter Ryan Estis Instagram   For more information on Ryan: Ryan Estis has more than 20 years of experience as a top-performing sales professional and leader. As the former chief strategy officer for the McCann Worldgroup advertising agency, he brings a fresh perspective to business events. As a keynote speaker, Ryan is known for his innovative ideas on leading change, improving sales effectiveness and preparing for the future of work. He was recently recognized as one of “the best keynote speakers ever heard” by Meetings & Conventions magazine alongside Tony Robbins, Bill Gates, Colin Powell and Mike Ditka. Ryan delivers keynote speeches, courses and online learning with an emphasis on actionable content designed to elevate business performance. His curriculum emphasizes emerging trends influencing leadership effectiveness, sales performance and customer experience. Ryan helps participants prepare to thrive in today’s ultra-competitive, hyper-connected business environment. Ryan supports the world’s leading brands, including AT&T, Motorola, MasterCard, Adobe, MassMutual, the National Basketball Association, the Mayo Clinic, Honeywell, Thomson Reuters, Ernst & Young, Lowes and Prudential. Ryan and his team publish original research featuring client case studies to expand the live event experience. He is also the author of a popular blog on business performance. His writing has been featured in Inc., Forbes, Entrepreneur, FastCompany, SmartBrief, Business News Network, Crain’s Business, and Yahoo Business.   Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy:                   00:01                Hi Ryan, welcome to the podcast. I'm excited to have you on. So thank you so much for joining me. Ryan Estis:                    00:07                Thanks Karen. It’s great to be here. Karen Litzy:                   00:09                Yes. And so like I mentioned in the introduction, Ryan was one of the keynote speakers this year at the private practice section annual meeting in Orlando, Florida. And I really loved the keynote, which is why I reached out to you. I took action now like you suggested and we'll get into that as part of my tan plan. We'll get into that a little later. I reached out to you via social media. And so here we are, but I have to say I really enjoyed the keynote and yeah, and it took a really like emotional interesting turn in the middle and I feel like in speaking with other participants that was unexpected and welcomed and really got people to sort of grab onto your words and take it to the end. So well done from a speech blueprint standpoint. Ryan Estis:                    01:06                Well I appreciate it, you know, and I think an experience like that a little more emotional resonance is a good thing because I think that helps. Helps the tan plan, which I know we're going to talk about get a lot of attention. So that's always the goal. Karen Litzy:                   01:20                Yeah, it was great. So thanks so much for that. But now let's let the listeners who weren't at PPS get a little bit more information from you. A little taste of that keynote. And one of the things that you know we were kind of talking about before we went on the air is at the private practice section. There are a lot of small business owners, a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of my audience are yes, maybe work in healthcare but are also entrepreneurs. And we were talking about kind of customer expectations and how those expectations has changed over maybe the past couple of years. You probably have better research than I do on this, but can you talk a little bit about customer expectations and how they are kind of changing the small business or entrepreneurial landscape? Ryan Estis:                    02:09                Right. Well, customer expectations are skyrocketing. They're changing fast because the world around us is changing so fast. I mean, I'm actually sitting at home right now and you know, when we get off this podcast I can turn to my lap and say, Alexa, paper towels and then an hour paper towels are at my front door. And that experience and experiences like those are elevating my expectations of everything. So as a consumer, I have a whole new set of standards with respect to customization, personalization of efficiency, expertise, sense of urgency and how I spend my time. And for those small business owners and entrepreneurs that are astute, aware of that and have evolving their customer experience to meet customers where they are, the future looks pretty bright. Karen Litzy:                   03:03                And let's say, okay, we'll take me as an example. So I'm a small business owner and I really liked the way my business is running. I'm successful, I've been in business for 10 years. If it ain't broke, why fix it? So what kind of advice would you give to me? Ryan Estis:                    03:23                I'd have some real thoughts about that. I would say if it ain't broke, it's the perfect time to break it because success breeds complacency. And complacency is the ultimate recipe for disruption. And the reality is for so many small businesses and small business owners, they don't change until there's a crisis, or they're experiencing some significant pain. And so, at that threshold, it's too late and you're on the verge of losing market share and getting commoditized, having your margin squeeze. And I know this from personal experience, if you remember from the keynote, my opening story was about exiting the advertising agency I worked for. And the reality of that situation is we had just deep pockets of resistance to change. You know, we wanted to kind of continue to do what we've always done, follow the playbook. And when the world around you changes and the marketplace changes, that's just such a recipe for disruption. And so having lived through that, I vowed personally, I am never going to experience that pain again. So the mindset of a small business owner today has to be continuous reinvention. Change is no longer an event. It's simply a way of existing. If you want to reign, remain relevant, thrive into the future. Karen Litzy:                   04:51                And can you give some examples of maybe what you do with your own business to constantly reinvent? Because I feel like we can say you need to constantly reinvent and I feel listeners out there going, okay, great. Well what does that mean? Ryan Estis:                    05:07                Yeah, yeah. So I'll get real, real specifics. Because here's the reality. If things are going pretty well and like the scenario you outlined, I had my business for 10 years, it's going well and I'm just going to continue to do what I'm doing. I don't see a real need or I have an appetite for change. And when things are going well that's true because change is uncomfortable. But, I've forced myself to get uncomfortable because that's where I'm evolving, stretched and growing. So we'll see a few things that I do. Three things, three very specific actionable tips. I am always in my business conducting what I refer to as three little experiments. I could be experimenting with my marketing on partnership, new software and the goal of the experiment isn't necessarily to have wild success. Ryan Estis:                    06:03                The goal of the experiment is to learn and iterate forwards. So I'm trying new things that I think could help our business. And a part of that is it puts me in a position where I'm expanding my knowledge, acquiring new skills, getting education feedback, and then pantsing the business forward. So I would say some successes iterative, but you want to get out of your comfort zone and into the learning lane. So we have three very specific experiments that we're running in our business right now and there are tasks and we're getting feedback and evolving as a result. So that's one thing that I do. A second thing that I just really encourage or recommend is that in addition to working in your business, like you do, like probably a lot of your listeners do, and I do as a practitioner and a small business owner, you have to make time to work on yourself and on your business. Ryan Estis:                    06:59                So for me, we just came out of a two and a half day meeting that I refer to as our 2020 growth summit. So this is literally shutting down emails, shutting down the phones, two and a half days with my team and some of our partners. There were eight of us attending in a room for two days with a very buttoned up agenda talking about the future of our organization. And you know, we're tearing apart the business and challenging ourselves to think about growth into the future. What are our priorities, budget assessment, looking back, looking forward recommendations, competitive intelligence, I mean all of it. So you know, that type of time kind of out of the business to working on that I think is imperative to having kind of a good solid plan and direction ahead. So that's a second recommendation is make you know, take time out to strategically work on your business. Ryan Estis:                    08:03                Well, the third recommendation I have, and this is something I may have talked about it in the keynote, but I'm a big fan for small business owners of having what I refer to as a personal board of directors. And I have eight people that I've invited formerly this, that on my board of directors. And I invited people that I had a relationship with. I have a lot of trust and respect for their opinion or what they were doing say in their specific area of expertise. And the invitations were fairly informal, but what it's done is it's given me access to these eight people who have competency and skills perhaps to shore up some of my gaps. And I am able at inflection points when facing a critical decision or a juncture or I'm considering making an investment. Ryan Estis:                    08:58                I had a group of people that, you know, I can reach out to and schedule a time with to use as a sounding board. And I think entrepreneurship at times can be very isolating. And you know, you feel you can get to a point where you feel like you're making decisions in a vacuum. And having an advisory board is moonshine option and valuable part of my growth, particularly over the course of the last couple of years. So those are three very kind of tactical things that I think everybody listening to can think about as it relates to their own business. Karen Litzy:                   09:29                And, all of those three examples are things that are pretty doable for everyone. You know, it's not like there are things that are so outrageous. Like when you say three little experiments, you mean small, not like I'm going to restructure my entire business, but you know, you constantly throughout the year are doing this. Do you say I'm gonna do three little experiments a year or is it like every quarter or six months? Ryan Estis:                    10:00                No, these are good questions. I would say I'm always running three experiments simultaneously. So let's say we're working on a marketing project that's a bit of an outlier, an experiment, something we wanted to do, try it. Sponsorship around some of our content branded content. And I'm not sure where this is going to go or if it's realistic. And so what we're testing this, I've reserved a little bit of budget, a little bit of investment, a little bit of capital. We're going to go down this path and then evaluate it. But through this process we'll learn things, we'll uncover things, we'll get customer feedback. We're working with, you know, our marketing partner. And so it's those, they're small tasks that, you know, if there's traction and the evaluation is, yeah, this is beneficial and we could build it then, you know, that we may expand an experiment. Ryan Estis:                    10:57                So, that's the idea. They're small because I'm a big believer in that. Success is iiterative, you know, you want to be doing little things. There’s been a thought about that. It's like the minimum viable effort. There's BJ Fogg, he wrote a book about tiny habits and small changes and his ideas that to create these, he's a professor at Stanford. And his idea is that you create a new habit, you need to simplify the behavior and then make the change so tiny, so little, so ridiculous that it's just something that's easy to do. So no, you don't want to and you want to take calculated risks, you know, not something that's going to jeopardize your core business. So that's when I think of three little experiments and then you build on those things based on your expanded knowledge, experience, exposure, you know, you can start to iterate your business forward. Karen Litzy:                   11:59                Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So like in my world, in the physical therapy world, for me, I can think of changes that I made over the last year. And we're joking before going on air, like I went into these changes with like white knuckles. Like I did not want to let go of the things that I was doing because like you said, it's very uncomfortable so that it works. So for me in the healthcare world, something that was, it was just simply switching my electronic medical records from one company to another and it was very uncomfortable. But now that I've been doing it for, I don't know, eight months or so or nine months, I think to myself, this is so much better. What was I thinking before? Things are better. My patients are getting reminders that they have appointments, the platform's easy, or I can do it on my phone. I don't need a computer. So you know, that's an example of something small and at least in the healthcare world that you can do. And like you said, I was getting feedback from my patients and they were like, I love this new system. This is great. I love getting these reminders. I love that I can pay through the system. So it worked. Ryan Estis:                    13:14                It works. But I also think it illustrates a very, very relevant point to our conversation that, you know, it's the psychology of change, right? So our brains are wired for safety and survival, not innovation and change, the mechanism in our psychology is trying to keep us safe and alerting us when danger is near. And that's trying to keep us away from these unknown elements. And that was pretty useful in times where there were reptiles running around trying to meet us. But in the modern day society, when you're running a small business, you have to condition yourself to navigate those feelings. So the discomfort, the uncertainty, the trepidation, the anxiousness that you felt upon making this change, that's a sign that you're in the learning lane, that you're expanding, you're growing, you need to kind of learn to welcome a little bit of that tension because that discomfort means you're on the cusp of a breakthrough and you broke through in an area of your business that elevated the client experience that's better for you, that's better for your team. And you just had to navigate that tension inside yourself. And you know what, it's like a muscle cause the next time then you invest in new software or taking intelligent risks or conduct an experiment, you'll recognize that tension of assignment. Yep. I'm in that. I'm in the learning, I call it the learning lane of your comfort zone and into the learning layer. And that's where growth happens. Karen Litzy:                   14:51                And it's not easy, but it's not easy and it's a little scary. But you know, I guess I love the third point you made kind of having a personal board of directors and I guess I do have this without even kind of categorizing it as such, but I do kind of run things by people and it's interesting even when you run things by this group of, let's say you have eight people to shore up your ideas with, what do you do when they come back to you with feedback that doesn't align with what your thoughts are? Ryan Estis:                    14:52                Yeah. So ultimately I would say I'm the decision driver, but if I'm out of my comfort zone or I'm entering unchartered territory, then it's useful to gain some outside perspective. And so I'm taking their advice under advising and helping it shape my decision. Ryan Estis:                    16:04                So if I get feedback or advice or counsel that's counter to what I anticipated and my own opinion, then that means I'm probably going to have to do a better, more thorough job of convincing myself that I was right in the first place. And, then taking that step forward. The other thing about the advisory board, I would just also recommend is I hand selected these people for their particular skill or competency. So I have a technology entrepreneur that's an expert at scaling a business. I have a good friend who owns a research business that's complimentary to mine and he built and scaled that business and sold it. And so he has a lot of expertise that's related to my business. We partner together, but I value the way he ran his business and the organization he'd built. Ryan Estis:                    16:56                I have my business manager who's known me for 20 years and is a good friend. And I also have my life coaches and spiritual advisors. So, my point in kind of sharing some of that context is, you know, I reach out to the people that I think would have relevant context based on the decision I'm navigating. So, if it's a financial decision, I'll probably reach out to my good friend who's worked in finance on wall street for 20 years and say, I'm thinking about borrowing money to do this and what's your perspective and how does this look good? And these are the terms. And so I have kind of carefully vetted these people based on their experience, exposure and the competency and thinking they could bring to support mine, if that makes sense. Karen Litzy:                   17:43                That makes perfect sense. And did you do any sort of like self evaluation to see really where your gaps are, whether conscious or unconscious gaps? Ryan Estis:                    17:54                Yeah, I've gone through coaching programs and have done some assessment work and then I also just recognize, you know, after having been in this business for a decade now, what some of the things that I'm really good at, some of the things that, you know, I'm not strong in. And so I just, I think in this kind of point on the journey, I have some exposure, I have some exposure to that. And some of it's based on my previous experience too. You know, I'm not a finance expert. I've never scaled the business and sold one. And you know, I'm not a technology expert. I've never launched an app. So these are things I'm like, Oh, these are things that, you know, as I move forward and navigate these waters, you know, it'd be good to have people that occasionally can jump in the boat and row with me and that elevates my confidence too. Karen Litzy:                   18:47                Sure, sure. Yeah. And I'm sure it gives you more confidence in your decisions. And you know, I'm thinking of those like brand new entrepreneurs who feel like completely overwhelmed with absolutely everything. What advice would you give to them to kind of really hone in on what their zone of geniuses or greatnesses if you will, and then what may be they need to fill in the gaps? Ryan Estis:                    19:12                Yeah. You know, a new honor, first of all, new entrepreneurship is overwhelming. So the best advice I have is be patient with yourself and be honest with yourself and you know, because everyone talks about entrepreneurship and freelancing and the gig economy. And you know, I guess when I quit my job, people thought I was crazy and I don't know, we weren't, entrepreneurship is so celebrated in our culture today and it's really happened in the last 10 years. You know, we've got magazines like fast company and we're putting, you know, these YouTube millionaires on the cover of ink. And I don't know, I think there's all this pressure to succeed and scale and get and just I would say just remember, focus on the next most important thing. Ryan Estis:                    20:09                Build what you'd want and make and you know, achieve some semblance of success before you move onto the next thing. Focus is so critical for an early stage entrepreneur. It's so easy to get distracted and trying to do seventeens that we try and do 17 things at once. Well, and then you want to be networking. So you're meeting with people in a coffee shop that did it before you and you're just slow down, focus, get the next thing right, be patient, success of build. So that kind of perspective I think is so important. Karen Litzy:                   20:47                Awesome. Thank you for that advice. That was great. I'm trying to take notes as quickly as I can here, but I'm going to have to go back and listen to this again. Now, you know, before you said you were kind of built to survive, you know, our nervous systems are built as human beings for us to survive. But something that you had mentioned in the keynote was, yeah, it's great to survive, but we also need to adapt and thrive. And you had sort of four keys to this breakthrough for poor performance are four keys to really help us adapt and thrive. So, can you kind of go through those for the listener? Ryan Estis:                    21:27                I can. So the first one is very related to kind of where we started, which is about change. And the first one's initiate continuous reinvention. So you want to be an agent of change. You want to look at change in challenge through the lens of opportunity. And you want to be invested in this idea of successes that are rid of them to constantly be conducting experiments. And really I'm going to disrupt myself before the marketplace or competition does it for me. So stay in the learning lane, push yourself, get uncomfortable. That's the first one. The second one is really about customer experience, the idea of brand, the customer experience. We're in the experience and kind of, we touched based on how fast customer expectations are changing. The actionable recommendation around that as audit your own customer experience. Ryan Estis:                    22:20                Look at every customer touch point your app online, offline, and look for opportunities to elevate it and add more value and make the experience better for your customers, meet customers where they are. Then the third one was it's related, but it's really about kind of, you know, the internal operation of your business, which was be a culture champion. I think culture is a catalyst for, you know, employee engagement, discretionary effort and contribution and culture is merely a reflection around how you lead. So think about purpose, vision, values, why are you doing what it is you're doing and what are the people who join you on this journey? Gonna get out of it. And employee experience and customer experience will always be directly correlated. And then the last one was take action. Now you talked about a Tan plan pan is, that's the acronym. Ryan Estis:                    23:16                Take action now. And it's that, you know, great leaders, entrepreneurs, small business owners, they have a healthy action orientation so they don't get paralyzed. They're able to make decisions. The idea that you take in new information and then you immediately take action on those ideas, right? So, just like this, your listening to this podcast, you invest 30 minutes, 45 minutes or reading a new book, it's then taking a pause after you've taken that information in and say, what can I decide and commit to doing and doing differently that's going to create some momentum or advanced my clots. And that's, you know, really successful people they have, they're hungry for information, but then they back it up with action orientation. And those were the four tips. Karen Litzy:                   24:04                Great tips. And I want to go back briefly to where you have branding the customer experience or patient experience in the healthcare world. Often times people use the B word, I call the B word branding to be all encompassing, right? Like you just have to, Oh, you just did your work in your branding, or B, be a better brand. But Ryan Estis:                    24:32                Yeah, that's not really it. Karen Litzy:                   24:34                It's sort of this term, you know? Ryan Estis:                    24:37                Yeah. I have an ad agency background, so I'd probably throw that word out too much. I liked how you call it, the B word that's actually good for me. But let me clarify. So I guess a more specific way to describe what I mean by brand. It's establishing an identity, standards of excellence right away you go to market, tell your story, engage customers, deliver service, follow up and follow through that differentiates you from the competition. And that delivers value or resonates in a compelling way with customers, right? It's how you do things and if that, you know, look every touch point with the customers and opportunity to add value in advance or relationship. And it's just imperative in the experience economy that we're carefully thinking about that and looking for ways to elevate. Karen Litzy:                   25:36                Yeah, and I love the example that you use. Where were you at? A Ritz Carlton or something. Is that where you were? So if you want to like briefly tell that story because I think, you know, when people hear Ritz Carlton, I mean, I know the first thing I think of is expensive, very elevated sense of customer service and is the same thing with like, a St. Regis. And you know, this is what I want to do real quick. I'm going to tell a story about my stay at st Regis and then we can contrast to your stay at a Ritz Carlton, which I would say are on par, right? So I was at a st Regis, I went out, it was like in a very warm part of the country and in the middle of the summer, came back, the air conditioner in the room, not only broke, but flooded the room and like you walked in and it was steamy and it smelled and it was like the carpet was all like squishy with water. Karen Litzy:                   26:46                So we called down and said, Hey, you know, our air conditioner broke, there's water everywhere. And you know this just like one in the morning, I realize it's like the seed team on but still, so the guy knocks on the door with a mop and a bucket and I was like, Oh no buddy, you're going to need more than that. Like this is not good. So we have to call back down. Say, yeah, no, like we can't actually stay in the room. It's really bad. So someone came up, knocked on the door, handed me a key and said, you're in room three 47 and walked away. I was like, boy that wasn't very st Regis of them was it? And then the next morning I went to the front desk and I was like, well maybe cause everybody was like real tired and like I was with my boyfriend at the time. We just wanted acknowledgement and maybe like have breakfast on us, have a drink at the bar. I went back down and said, yeah, my room flooded last night and they just came up and handed us a key and now we're in this room. The girls like, yep. Got it. Karen Litzy:                   27:46                And that was my experience. So I wrote a letter and what the st Regis did is probably more along the lines of your experience at the Ritz Carlton. I wrote a letter, I didn't make a big deal while I was there. Wrote a letter, said what happened to general manager, came back and he said, thank you so much for not ranting and raving and making a big deal of things. Any weekend you want. No blackouts. It's on me. So we took him back and they gave us a whole redo. And now I'm like, I would stay at a st Regis again in a heartbeat. They were fantastic Ryan Estis:                    28:25                There and that's the ultimate lesson for any entrepreneur. It's the last sentence. You just say, cause here, here's the key. And it's similar to my Ritz Carlton experience and their philosophy is that problems are our best opportunities in business to deepen a relationship and that. So it's a real reframing of the problem, opportunity and customer relationship. It's so interesting. The best customer service stories always start out with a problem. My room got flooded, I lost my Ray-Bans in the Bay and was, you know, frustrated. And then some heroes steps in and resolves the problem beyond our wildest expectations. And it deepens our affinity, loyalty and evangelism for that particular brand. And so it's just, it's important to remember, it's never the problem, it's the way it gets resolved that people remember. And that ultimately shapes how they feel about doing business with you and Ritz Carlton leaving keys like PR. Ryan Estis:                    29:38                It's almost celebrated. We have a guest that has a problem. Here's our moment to shine, to be magic, to create that wonderful, memorable feeling. And you know, so often I think in business and small businesses, you know, we get aggravated, Oh, customer's upset. Oh there's a complaint. And just next time that happens, pause and say, how can we turn this problem into an experience that creates a customer for life? And you'll reframe it. And you know, it's just interesting it's when problems come up for me. Now I have some of my, God, there it is. Now we've got a real opera, a magic moment as arrived. Karen Litzy:                   30:16                Yeah. Ryan Estis:                    30:17                How are we going to raise, how are we going to respond? Karen Litzy:                   30:20                Exactly. And, you know, for the listeners who weren't at PPS, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but you were like paddle boarding and the Bay, you lost your sunglasses. And like some guy that worked at the Ritz Carlton went snorkeling down and got them for you and returned them to you. And you were like, what in the hell? Ryan Estis:                    30:40                Yeah. And keep in mind, I never said, Hey, I mean I lost it. It was my fault. Karen Litzy:                   30:47                Yeah. Ryan Estis:                    30:48                And he just overheard me talking about it. I never, you know, I never went and said, Hey, this happened to me, you know, so it was just totally my thing. And the fact that they picked up on that and did what they did. And I was just, you know, I was dumbfounded and the more I researched and unpacked it and learned and actually spent some time with one of the executives at Ritz Carlton that runs a leadership Academy, you learn how based in their culture that is, right. So it's their values, it's their service standards. I mean, one of the great things at Ritz Carlton is that, you know, they have these very simple standards for how they greet and interact with guests. And part of what's great about that is that it creates consistency across all Ritz Carlton properties, right? So there's a way they greet and interact with the guests and they train on that, not what I mean by brand and things standard of excellence that's repeatable, that differentiates them, that resonates with the customer. So it's just a great takeaway from that is do you have standards? You know, you say customer service excellence that may mean something very different to me than it does to you. And that's my point is you don't leave customer experience up to the subjective interpretation of each individual. You standardize it, create protocol around it, process discipline around it so you can deliver a world class experience every single time. That's the idea. Karen Litzy:                   32:20                Yeah. So really get specific. Ryan Estis:                    32:23                Yeah, get specific. Karen Litzy:                   32:25                Yeah. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. All right, so before we wrap things up here, I just have a couple more questions, but first one is, is there anything we missed? Any key takeaways that you want the audience to get? Ryan Estis:                    32:41                You know, I think to just, you know, and this isn't new, but I think really spending some time as a small business owner, looking out, being forward thinking, you know, spending a little time, this is a great time of year to do it. We're coming up on the end of the year and I know it's an exercise I'm going through. I'm asking myself, you know, why am I doing this, first of all, and then what do I really want this to be a few months from now, but even five or 10 years from now? And some of that forward thinking and visioning and purpose, solidification. It helps reconnect me to why I got into this in the first place. Why it still matters to me. And the solidification and the articulation of that can really be beneficial to a culture and connecting your people to it and being able with clarity to say, this is where we're going, this is what we're building and this is why we're doing it. This is the impact that it's having. And I think for your listeners in your industry, some of that work could be, so useful and so, so meaningful. So I would think that's another, you know, Simon Sinek did the great Ted talk. He wrote the book and starts with why. And I think that's true. Karen Litzy:                   33:55                Awesome. Well, thank you for that. And then the last question, I probably should have prefaced this question, but I forgot. So here we go. It's a question that I kind of ask everyone at the end of the interview. And that's knowing where you are now in your business and in your life. What advice would you give to yourself straight out of college? Ryan Estis:                    34:19                Yeah, I would say, relax, have fun and enjoy the ride because it goes by pretty quick and you know, if it's not something that is going to matter five years from now, don't give it more than five minutes of your time and attention. I think for a lot of, you know, achievement oriented, entrepreneurial type a people, which I am one of, we can tend to get perfectionist and stress about the details and kind of, you know, that creates low grade anxiety and overwhelm when things go wrong. And it's just, as I've gotten a little older and wiser, I think just relaxed and letting some of that stuff go and really making sure that, you know, yeah, hard work is great and building something that you care about and are proud of matters, but just really make sure that you're enjoying the moments and the journey your on, you know, while you're moving through it. Ryan Estis:                    35:14                I think that's just so critical. I think we project outward and delay our happiness until, you know, I call it the if when happiness travel, if my business gets to this point, you know that then I'll take a vacation or once I get here, then I'll finally be happy. That's a real, a real miss. And so I let some time go by. I think it's certain phases of early phases, my career and my life where I would have been a little more relaxed about things and that's important. Karen Litzy:                   35:46                Yeah. I know I'm guilty of everything you just said for sure. And now totally guilty. Oh 100% guilty of everything that you just said. And I'm trying to work through that myself. So that's wonderful advice. Now, where can people find you if they want more information and they want to connect with you? They want to hear you speak, all that fun stuff. Ryan Estis:                    36:11                So I would say that the website's a great place. We do a weekly newsletter called prepare for impact. It comes out every Sunday and it's just kind of a couple of actionable tips to help you get ready to be the best version of who you are and the week ahead. And then social media. LinkedIn, I'm pretty active on Instagram. We have a company Facebook page, pretty pretty active YouTube channel. So all of the social properties. But I'd love to connect with any of your listeners. This was a lot of fun. Karen Litzy:                   36:45                Fabulous. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. And do you have anything coming up? Anything in the works Ryan Estis:                    36:55                And I do. So, you know, we're working on a book. Karen Litzy:                   37:02                Yes. Ryan Estis:                    37:04                I think we're at the point now that we're at the point now where I think it's actually gonna be a pretty good book and it's about sales, service and leadership. I think it'd be very relevant to the, you know, small business owners and practitioners listening and that'll be out sometime next year. So for anybody listening that's interested in, you know, if they subscribe to the newsletter and stuff, we'll be sure and do promotion on it. Karen Litzy:                   37:32                Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time out and coming on. I appreciate it. Ryan Estis:                    37:36                Yeah. Thanks for having me. Karen Litzy:                   37:38                And everyone, thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.   Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on iTunes!

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Dr. Elaine Lonnemann on the show to discuss the impacts of being diagnosed with degenerative disc disease.  Elaine Lonnemann has served the public clinically as a Physical Therapist for over 30 years practicing in a variety of settings in Tennessee, Florida, Kentucky and Indiana. Her early clinical interests in treating patients with low back pain evolved into a clinical academic career with a focus on best practice in orthopaedics, teaching and leadership. She lives in Southern Indiana and is the mother of four boys with her partner and husband Paul Lonnemann who is also a Physical Therapist. In this episode, we discuss: -The American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists position on the opioid crisis -Patient health outcomes following the diagnosis of degenerative disc disease -The use of Clinical Practice Guidelines for low back pain in physical therapy practice -Pain science education and the treatment of low back pain -And so much more! Resources: Email: elonnemann@usa.edu Elaine Lonnemann Twitter AAOMPT Website AAOMPT Position Statements Battie et al. 2019: Degenerative Disc Disease: What is in a Name? JOSPT CPG: Low back pain      For more information on Elaine: Dr. Elaine Lonnemann received a BS degree in PT from the University of Louisville in 1989, a MSPT from the University of St. Augustine (1996) and DPT (2004). She is the program director of the transitional Doctor of Physical Therapy program for the University of St. Augustine. She has served in several positions for the University of St. Augustine for Health Sciences since joining in 1998 including teaching in the online and continuing professional education divisions. Her responsibilities include oversight of the transitional DPT program as well as the orthopaedic and manual physical therapy residency and fellowship. She is a board-certified clinical specialist in Orthopedics, Certified Manual Physical Therapist and a Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists (AAOMPT). Her clinical experience have been in private practice, home health, outpatient practice, and as Chief PT of outpatient services in a level II trauma center at a university hospital. Dr. Lonnemann was an associate professor for Bellarmine University in Louisville KY and taught in the first professional program for fifteen years. She has presented nationally and internationally on the topics of spinal thrust manipulation, low back pain guidelines and leadership. She authored textbook chapters in orthopaedic physical therapy and has published in the areas of spine morphology and joint manipulation. She is passionate about leadership, postprofessional physical therapy education, manual physical therapy and integrating pain and movement sciences in the clinical management of clients. She is the current President of AAOMPT and has served two terms as Secretary and Chair of the AAOMPT International Federation of Manual Physical Therapists Educational Standards and International Monitoring Committee, member of the OMPT Description of Advanced Specialty Practice Task Force and committee member and author for the 2018 revision of the Manipulation Education Manual. She received the AAOMPT Mennell Service Award and the 2017 President Joseph and Maureen McGowan Prize for Faculty Development from Bellarmine University which provided the opportunity to study the history of manual therapy at Oxford University.   Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy:                   00:01                Hello, Dr. Elaine Lonnemann, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on. Elaine Lonnemann:       00:06                Thanks. I appreciate being here. Karen Litzy:                   00:08                Okay, so today we're going to be talking about degenerative disc disease. But first I would love for you to talk about what it is, why it exists and what do all those letters in AAOMPT stand for? Elaine Lonnemann:       00:27                Absolutely. So AAOMPT stands for the American Academy of orthopedic manual physical therapists and it's an organization, it's an association that started in 1991 basically because some individuals felt like we needed a group that could present scholarly works that could meet, have conferences and also test clinicians based on international manual therapy standards. And so that group, several individuals got together and that's how it started in Michigan actually. So that now we have representing 3000 physical therapists. Karen Litzy:                   01:12                That's a lot of therapists. And how long have you been part of the organization? Elaine Lonnemann:       01:19                I've been a member since actually 1994. So quite a lot of time. I was a resident and fellow in training and became a member of really when it was beginning. So I've been involved as a member and more recently as an officer. Karen Litzy:                   01:37                Awesome. That's great. So now let's talk about AAOMPT position on DDD or degenerative disc disease, which is something that I think is a very commonly diagnosed. I think it makes people nervous when they hear it because they hear the word disease. So can you talk a little bit about degenerative disc disease and the position AAOMPT has on that? Elaine Lonnemann:       02:03                Yeah, so our position is we just oppose the use of that term. It's commonly used as you said, and it's really used to diagnose an age related condition. And that age-related condition shouldn't be considered a disease. It shouldn't be considered degenerative. So it happens whenever on imaging you see changes in the shape or the size of the disks in the spinal column. So that's how it's identified. And, you know, we know several things that nearly everyone's discs change over time. And the interesting thing about that is that not everyone feels pain even when they have those changes in their discs. So, that's why we oppose it or one of the reasons. Karen Litzy:                   02:52                And you know, like we said, it is so highly diagnosed and when people hear that disease, they think of something that like cancer is a disease or Parkinson's is a disease or a syndrome. But I think it's kind of scary terminology and words matter. So what does AAOMPT feel should be a better descriptor? Elaine Lonnemann:       03:19                Well, you know, I don't know that we have a descriptor in terms of a substitute, but I think, you know, patients really have the right to accurate healthcare information. And when, like you said, when they are given that diagnosis, you know, not only disease, disease puts a lot of fear in their mind, but degenerative, I mean they start to lose hope because they degenerative just sounds like, you know, they're gone down a pathway, you know, if it is just described as mechanical back pain or radiating back pain, you know, and our healthcare system really looks at trying to find a tissue or a pathoanatomic cause for low back pain. And the research clearly indicates that and has over time that it's very difficult to find a specific cause for low back pain. So we really need to move away from that model. Elaine Lonnemann:       04:16                And, you know, the other part of that is the patients lose fear, they lose hope. And they also began to believe they can't manage their own pain. So they lose self efficacy. And we know how important that is for our patients. And I think that's the one thing I love about our profession is that we really help patients manage and control their symptoms, their condition, and improve their function. And, whenever they're given that label, it really it can misguide them, you know, because they lose hope. And then they might start choosing, you know, riskier treatment options. Karen Litzy:                   04:53                Surgeries, medications, even less invasive procedures, things like that that maybe may not be necessary. But like you said, if you're the patient getting this diagnosis of degenerative disc disease, it can maybe feel like you're at the end of your rope and you don't have much more to go. Elaine Lonnemann:       05:16                That's right. And patients need to know that their situation is real, that the findings that they have, because most people are diagnosed after they've had imaging. And so I think it's really important that we emphasize, yes, those findings are real, but this isn't a disease and this can be managed. And you know, the other thing is that oftentimes those imaging findings stay, but their pain goes away after they're treated. So, you know, that helps to give them some hope. I recently had a student who was 26 years old who came up to me and said, you know, I'm really concerned. I went to see a healthcare provider and because I was having some back pain and they diagnosed me with degenerative disc disease, what am I going to do? And then she just went in, almost fell apart because she said, you know, I love to run. Elaine Lonnemann:       06:06                I don't, you know, I don't know what I should do. Can I continue to exercise? And I'm thinking about getting an epidural injections because I don't want this to progress. And so I had to kind of step back for a minute and say, okay, it just explained to me why you went, you know, tell me about your pain cause you're not going to, she told me, I'm not even in pain now. She said she had had pain for a week and then went in. Because her sister had structural scoliosis, so she was fearful even though that was at 16, she was fearful that she might have a condition that would be a problem. And now she's fearful because she's been labeled as having degenerative disc disease. So, you know, it really took a while to counsel her and you know, to again, affirm these findings are real, there are changes in our discs but these are normal changes that occur with aging and they shouldn't be considered degenerative. The studies indicate that, you know, there's oftentimes when those findings are present, they don't correlate with the exact clinical presentation of the patient. And that's what we want to get. That's the message we want to get up. Karen Litzy:                   07:16                And as physical therapists we can certainly relay that message to our patients. But if the patient hears that from the physician first, it makes it a little bit more difficult. Our job becomes a little bit more difficult because now it makes it seem like we're giving two different diagnoses. Maybe it starts with us as individuals, but how can we as the physical therapist who is maybe seeing this patient after they were given that diagnosis from the doctor communicate to the physicians or you know, cause this is a medical system wide use of terminology and it really needs to change from top to bottom. And I feel like sometimes yeah we're that point of entry but oftentimes where people are coming to see us after they get that diagnosis. So how do we as a profession advocate for this change to the greater health care system? Elaine Lonnemann:       08:22                Well I think we definitely need to partner with our medical colleagues with APTA and we are already partners but definitely get the word out that you know, this type of diagnosis really does misinformed patients. There is research and AAOMPT has developed a white paper that explains the research related to how this misinformation can potentially guide their treatment or lead them to choose, like you said, riskier treatment options. And you know, one of those, obviously the opioid epidemic is something that we have to think about. And not to say that it's going to lead them directly into that path, but it does. There has been some research that indicates that, you know, the healthcare costs are driven because we aren't following the practice clinical practice guidelines for back pain. So I think the biggest message that needs to come out is we need to follow those clinical practice guidelines. Elaine Lonnemann:       09:22                And I just heard Tony Toledo, do you have his keynote presentation at the interprofessional collaborative spine conference? And there were physical therapists and physicians and chiropractors all together in a room and you know, it was a great opportunity to meet, you know, as partners with them and you know, what can we do for the greater good of our patients? And I think the biggest, yeah, and he actually presented some of the challenges and what can we do from here forward really to improve this situation. And you know, he was talking to all of this. It wasn't just physical therapists, but one of the things that he did address was the continuity of care. And he said it's really important that patients don't wait, that we get them in early and not that every patient would and I don't want to, I don't, I want to make sure this is clear. Elaine Lonnemann:       10:12                Not every patient who has low back pain needs to be seen by a healthcare provider, whether it be a physical therapist or other conservative type of clinician. Sometimes that pain will go away, but if it's very intense and if it doesn't go away, then they should seek care and it should be early. So talking about the continuity of care, you know, in terms of who sees the patient first and whoever does it should follow the clinical practice guidelines that recognize, you know, with some time with some activity, with some coaching, a reassurance and a comprehensive medical exam that really does rule out a systemic cause or something more sinister because that's the other thing. Patients are fearful. My 26 year old student was fearful that this was something sinister. So I think that is a really important message to get out that comprehensive physical exam can really help to rule out some of the medical disorders that, you know, are uncommon in low back pain, but that our patients are concerned about. Elaine Lonnemann:       11:21                So, continuity of care was one thing he mentioned. Oh, and the other thing he mentioned is variation in care. Of course, you know, it's a big problem because you know, whatever healthcare provider you see with low back pain, there's a ton of variation in how the providers performing interventions. So, you know, he highlighted that and I couldn't agree more but one of the things that he mentioned and you know, of course president of the Academy of orthopedic manual therapy, you know, so one would think I'm going to mention manual therapy, but really it's because that is part of the clinic, one of the recommendations of the clinical practice guidelines, is manual therapy for back pain. And again, not every patient needs it, but he mentioned, you know, manipulation, mobilization, those are forms of manual therapy along with exercise. And so I think that following the clinical practice guidelines, trying to reduce our variation in care and also recognizing that, you know, as physical therapists, we need to refer on or we need to know when not to treat and when we do need to treat consistently and follow those guidelines. Elaine Lonnemann:       12:36                So that's probably a long answer to your question, but as far as the message that needs to get out, I really just think highlighting those things are important. Karen Litzy:                   12:45                No, and I don't think that was a long answer at all. I think that was a very good comprehensive answer. And you know, we're talking about clinical practice guidelines. Where can people find these clinical practice guidelines? I know the orthopedic section of the APTA has clinical practice guidelines on their website. Are there other places where people can search for these guidelines? Because oftentimes we talk about clinical practice guidelines, but people are like, I don't have any idea where to find them. I don't know where to look. Elaine Lonnemann:       13:21                Well, so that's a good, good point. In terms of looking at websites, you know, I think the orthopedic Academy, their clinical practice guidelines follow the majority of practice guidelines that are out there. The American family practice group also has clinical guidelines. Ciao, published a group of guidelines and they're all fairly consistent. In turn there are some variations and you know, sometimes people ask what, well, why are there, you know, so many variations. And part of it's because the different groups, there might be some bias in those. Just if you break them down and look at the commonalities, you know, again, at least for back pain, I think those are the things that you have to look at. So I know APTA has some links. And now that you mentioned it, we will put links on our website as well to the clinical practice guidelines that are out there. And we'll have a a link to this white paper as well that the Alicia Emerson led that charge along with Gail dial and, and Dan Roan and other Jason's silver. Now other a PTA members amped members that, um, we're working in this area. Karen Litzy:                   14:38                Yeah. Because I think it's, there is a breakdown from, so you graduate with your PT degree, you start working and if you don't keep, you don't know where to look. You're, you're kind of just sort of floating along using maybe what you learned in school, which is great because hopefully you won't kill anybody or do major harm to somebody. But I think when it comes to diving deeper into treatment paradigms, these clinical practice guidelines, people have to be proactive about that. And so knowing where to look and knowing where to find them is great. Um, and I also want to touch back on the variation of care. And when you're talking about variation of care, are you talking between physical therapists themselves or between a PT versus a doctor versus a chiropractor? Uh, manual therapist versus non-manual therapist? I mean I think there is a lot of variation to care and that can also be quite confusing to the patient. So I don't know in that keynote if he sort of touched on what he meant by variation of care. Elaine Lonnemann:       15:50                Yeah. He met within physical therapists and or within profession and, and really looking at, you know, and all the individuals in the room, many of us are providing very similar [inaudible] at least are able to provide similar treatment options. And so his, his point was that, you know, we really should be looking at more consistent care model following the practice guidelines and not, um, varying to other types of, of treatment approaches that may not have the evidence and, and so variation and care, but also that evidence, um, the care that is supported by the evidence Karen Litzy:                   16:28                of course. And you know, that brings me to, this is going slightly off topic, but, well, no, not really. It's still on topic. It, it reminds me of a, a post that I saw in a Facebook group, a physical therapist, and it was a newer ish grad, maybe out a year or two. And he said something to the effect, I'm paraphrasing. Um, when we advertise to the public about what we do as physical therapists, you know, everyone tends to say, you know, we're evidence-based profession. You said, shouldn't the consumer already know that? And how important is it? Like, don't you just have to do what the patient wants? Because all we're worried about is our job is to make a person feel better. So what does it really matter what you use to get them there? Meaning does it matter if you use something that's evidence-based or not? Elaine Lonnemann:       17:28                Well, and I think, you know, part of that is patient education and having a relationship with your patient so that they do trust you. So you have, you know, I think they have to be able to trust you and you have to develop that therapeutic Alliance with them too. Help them understand that, you know, these are treatment options and it should be patient centered. You know, we want to be patient centered and we want to help them understand that, that these are the best approaches and it's not a one size fits all. I mean there are some outliers, but the extreme variation that has been shown is the problem. It's not the occasional patient who, well yeah, sure. Maybe that PA it's more patient centered to do a different approach, but there's extreme variation. Elaine Lonnemann:       18:16                And I think even if we just reduce that by 50%, I think it would have a huge impact on care and the research that's coming out of university of Pittsburgh that I'm not involved with this, so I'm just, I'm just reading and trying to do the same thing, everyone else's. But there's some big research that's coming out to talk about that will speak to, you know, following the guidelines when there is variation of care or if there is a variation of care. Okay. Yeah. What's different? Karen Litzy:                   18:51                Yeah. And I know there was a study that came out a couple of weeks ago that showed that, you know, with different diagnoses, less than half of physical therapists actually follow best evidence to treat. Elaine Lonnemann:       19:08                Yup. And the thing that you mentioned before too is how do we avoid that? I think as you mentioned, a PTA or being a member of the American physical therapy association really helps. It's made to streamline my direction of understanding so I can go to PT in motion. I can look at, you know, there's a lot of great white papers that they have position statements, you know, on the opioid epidemic. There's just a ton of great resources there. And it was another thing that I would emphasize for clinicians. Karen Litzy:                   19:43                Yeah. Because you know, in the end, you want to treat people using best evidence, you know, and I think it was Jason Silvernail in a comment said something. Again, I'm paraphrasing, but something to the effect of why would I waste my time doing something that I know doesn't have evidence behind it, when I could be spending that time, precious time with our patients. Sometimes you get an hour, sometimes a half an hour, sometimes 15 minutes, right? So why would you waste that precious time on something that you know, doesn't have the evidence behind it when instead you can be doing something that has been shown to help and that goes back to, and then you'll hear the argument against that was like, well, the patient really wanted it. So that's how I'm developing my therapeutic Alliance. Elaine Lonnemann:       20:39                Yeah. But I would still argue against that. Karen Litzy:                   20:43                And that's where like you said, patient education comes in, you want to explain to the patient, Hey listen, I understand that you like treatment X, Y, Z, but right now we know that treatment ABC is more appropriate for you given where you're at. And explain to them why. And I've done that plenty of times and patients are like, okay, so right. Elaine Lonnemann:       21:04                And then there's an opportunity to negotiate, you know, let's just try this. If it doesn't work, you know, this seems to be more effective than, and it is more efficient. And like Jason said, why, why would you waste your time and their time? You know? And that's what I tell the patient, I respect your time and this is what we understand and this is what we know at this point and is best care. So, you know, if you're willing to go along with me on this, you know, I think we can try it out. And if it doesn't work, you can fire me. You can find another physical therapist or, you know, I'll find you someone that it works, you know, or the treatment, you know. So yeah, I think you have to be really, Karen Litzy:                   21:45                And I think, like we said in the beginning and going back to degenerative disc disease, words matter, right? And how you explain things matter. Elaine Lonnemann:       21:55                Yes. Well and Michelle just published a systematic review in spine, she looked at the term degenerative disc disease and the name of the article is what's in a name. And, also found that there's so much variation in what, you know, healthcare providers are calling degenerative disc disease and you know, in summary found that it's just, it's inconclusive and there's not evidence to support this as a disease and there's so much variation in it that they also recommend not using it as a term. Karen Litzy:                   22:37                And so from what we talked about from a sort of 30,000 foot view as to what associations can do to kind of help clean up terminology, this kind of medical terminology and that may, like you said, partnering with our physician colleagues partnering with maybe our chiropractic colleagues to kind of change the narrative. But what can, for all the listeners out there, let's say you're an individual therapist, what can you do to kind of help change the narrative around that term degenerative disc disease? So your patient comes into you, they're fraught with worry, what can you do? Elaine Lonnemann:       23:19                Okay. You know, I think the biggest thing is to get our patients as our advocates. And so taking the time to educate them about it and say, yes, you know, this is real. Your changes are real. This isn't a disease. And to help them to understand that and then give them the tools, you know, say, Hey, you know, when you go back to your physician or your other provider, whoever referred, or maybe they didn't refer, you know, get the word out to these medical providers, get the word out too, you know, senators, legislators and because they're speaking to them as well and support, you know, this aspect of, you know, whether it's conservative care, you know, and also having pamphlets or educational materials, you know, that really do talk about, you know, if you are referred to a physical therapist first, that there's, I believe it's an 89 point something percent less likelihood for that patient to be prescribed opiates in the following year. Elaine Lonnemann:       24:23                And that's a huge statistic, you know, and everybody's concerned about the opioid epidemic right now. So, you know, following practice guidelines and physical therapists should be considered, you know, first primary contact providers, then we can do a comprehensive medical exam, we can screen, we know when not to treat, we know when to refer on. And following those guidelines I think is the other part of what I educate my patients about. So I would say, you know, these are the guidelines and having this material. So if you're interested in sharing this with other people and you know, there are certain patients that are more vocal than others and whenever I hit those patients, I really get them and hit them hard and say, you know, help share this information. If you found this valuable, please advocate for not only yourself but for the next person that comes down the road. So they don't have to worry that there are 26 year old now and they have, you know, this label. Karen Litzy:                   25:28                Yeah. He had this quote unquote disease. That is not all right. So is there anything else that from your perspective or for AAOMPT's perspective that we missed that you're like, you know, I really want, whether it be other physical therapists or healthcare providers, even the general public to know. Elaine Lonnemann:       25:52                You know, I think it's important that I'm clear on this. I'm not saying that imaging isn't useful. Because you know, I've talked to us a little bit on the downside of it, you know, but in the absence of trauma or any other systemic medical concern, imaging studies aren't necessary for, you know, low back pain, a comprehensive medical exam is. So I think that's something that I would like to emphasize, but there are times when imaging is necessary and I don't want to come across as saying that, you know, we're downplaying it all the time because sometimes it certainly is necessary. But I think that, you know, the biggest thing that people don't understand is that these are common age related changes in the spine. They don't correlate with symptoms. You know, that's hard for the patients to understand and providers because we are so focused on finding, you know, some type of pain generating tissue as the cause, you know, so sometimes I'll share stories too with patients and say, you know, because they've now got this disease, they've got imaging, they've got findings and you have to kind of talk them off the ledge to a certain extent. Elaine Lonnemann:       27:14                And I say, you know, if I had a group of 20 year olds, 120 year olds in a group, and then I have a group of 80 year olds, 180 year olds on, on the other side of the room and none of them have back pain. Now they may, probably 90% of us have back pain at some point in our life. But at this point in this room, none of them have back pain. But then if I sent them all into the MRI or imaging room, then 37% of those 20 year olds would come back with degenerative changes in there. There's fine or changes by positive findings and if you then look at the 80 year old group who then goes in and has the MRI, that number goes up to 96% so that kind of gives them a little bit of a balance. So I guess that's the other thing I would share, you know, just that these findings on imaging don't necessarily have to lead individuals to go down a path for riskier treatment options. Karen Litzy:                   28:15                I think that's a great statistic. And thanks for sharing that because now that's something that if there are any therapists listening, they can kind of use those statistics to say, Hey, listen this is common as you get older. And I think, you know, the downfall that I can see from having this conversation with the patient is then the patient's saying, do you think it's all in my head? Elaine Lonnemann:       28:40                Right. And that's what I emphasize. Yeah. Karen Litzy:                   28:42                Oh, real. Yeah. That's why I'm glad that you said like, listen, your pain is here. It's real. You're experiencing this. This is not made up. But let's see if we can, like you said, follow these guidelines get you to move, do exercise, feel more comfortable in your body in order to help reduce your symptoms, reduce the pain. Cause I know, I mean when in my early days of explaining things like that to patients, I've had someone say so it's all in my head and I was like, Oh, that is not what I meant. I definitely screwed that up. And with experience you learn, right? You learn how to do that better. You learn how to relate to the patient. And the best thing to do, like you said, is to use stories and to use statistics and to use metaphors and things like that so that people can kind of understand where you're coming from. But yeah, that's the only downfall that I could think of. That devil's advocate here. Right? Elaine Lonnemann:       29:41                Absolutely. Yeah. And I think as physical therapists we have to kind of get outside of ourselves. Yes, we know that pain is, you know, it may begin in the brain and the synapses and all of that, but do we really have to say that specifically to the patient? Can't we just say, you know, it's a normal, natural physiological response. You've had it, what you have is real and it's impacted by a lot of things. That's a complex issue. But what you have is real. And I have never argued, that was probably some of the best advice I learned in my fellowship training when the patient has pain. And this was way back when before a lot of the pain science research has come out. But when the patient says they have pain is their pain, that is what they have, you don't argue with them about that. You know, regardless of what type of physiological response you're seeing, what they have is real. And so, yeah, I do hear what you're saying about the downside of it. Yeah. They do have physiological changes, but pain is a complex matter. Karen Litzy:                   30:43                Well, thank you for all of that info. And I think that this will definitely give therapists something to think about. It'll give therapists a great way to move forward with treatment. People now know how to access the clinical practice guidelines. And that leads me to the last question for you and that is knowing where you are now in your practice and in your life, what advice would you give to yourself as a new grad, fresh out of physical therapy school? Elaine Lonnemann:       31:16                I would probably recommend to take more time to reflect on my patients. Not necessarily bringing them home, but to take a little more time to reflect on the things that they said personally related to their care. And also reflect on outcomes to a greater degree. Karen Litzy:                   31:44                Great advice. I always say that I would like to go back to my patients in my early days and just, you're like, I'm sorry. Karen Litzy:                   31:57                I mean, you know, I was doing the best I could with the information at the time. But you know, of course as you gain more knowledge, you gain more experience. You look back on things and you're like, Oh man, I could've done that better. But that is part of that reflection process. So you look back on patients and you reflect and you think, Hmm, you know, maybe I could've done X, Y and Z. So then the next patient comes along and you do better. So I think that's great advice. I love it. And yeah, where can people find more information about AAOMPT and more information about you if they have questions or anything like that? Elaine Lonnemann:       32:30                Oh, absolutely. So, the AAOMPT website is https://aaompt.org/ and you can certainly email me. I'm happy to answer any questions or talk to you more about, the Academy of orthopedic manual physical therapy, APTA, where to find guidelines, research on low back pain. It's just something I'm very passionate about and always enjoy talking about and working with patients with as well. Karen Litzy:                                           Awesome. Well thank you so much and thank you for coming on sharing all this info. I appreciate it. Everyone else, thank you so much for tuning in. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart. Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! 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On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Eva Norman on the show to discuss her cash based physical therapy business.  Eva Norman, PT, DPT, CEEAA is the President and founder of Live Your Life Physical Therapy, LLC, 100% of cash-based business since 2013. It is the first mobile medical wellness practice in the country run by an inter-professional team of physical therapists, occupational therapists, speech language pathologists, personal trainers, acupuncturists, massage therapists, health coaches and dietitians dedicated to optimizing health by transforming lifestyles through innovative wellness, fitness, rehabilitative and preventative services. The company’s success can be attributed to standardizing an approach to develop a life-long client, transforming lifestyles through care collaboration, and mentoring and investing in their employees. In this episode, we discuss: -The shocking story behind how Eva was introduced to physical therapy as a teen -How to attract and maintain patient flow with a mobile cash practice -The benefits of virtual assistants for the operational side of business -The importance of maintaining a connection with your network -And so much more! Resources: Live Your Life PT Website Live Your Life PT Twitter Live Your Life PT Facebook Live Your Life PT Instagram Eva Norman LinkedIn APTA Private Practice Section For more information on Eva: Eva Norman, PT, DPT, CEEAA has been practicing physical therapy for nearly 20 years.  She received her B.S., M.S. and Doctor of Physical Therapy degree from Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia, PA. Through the years, Dr. Norman has practiced in different practice settings with patients of all ages with various diagnoses. Early on in her career she developed a strong interest in geriatric rehabilitation. To expand her skill set over the years she has taken numerous continuing education courses and also worked in the areas of neurology, orthopedics and cardiopulmonary rehabilitation. In 2013, she became a Certified Exercise Expert for the Aging Adult. Dr. Norman, an active member of the American Physical Therapy Association since 1994, has served in numerous roles. She is currently serving as the MN Physical Therapy Association’s (MNPTA) Federal Affairs Liaison, MNPTA Delegate, and PT Political Action Committee Trustee Chair. She is a member of the private practice, home health, geriatric, health policy and neurology sections. In January 2013, Eva founded Live Your Life Physical Therapy, LLC in response to her passionate desire to offer to her clients, patients, and the public, services both in home and the community that could help them to experience health, wellness, and a more active lifestyle throughout their life spans, through the creative applications of preventative and rehabilitative physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy, personal training, acupuncture, massage, health coaching & dietary services. Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy:                   00:01                Hi Eva, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to talk to you today. As a lot of people may not be familiar with your story quite yet, but those of my listeners who are know that we have a lot to talk about and we could've gone in a million different directions here from advocacy to APTA membership to the PT pac. I mean on and on and on. But what I really want to know, I'm being selfish here, would I really want to talk about is your business, so live your life, physical therapy. It's a really interesting business model, I think. I think and I hope that a lot of physical therapists will trend into your business model at some point. But before we get to that, can you tell us the story behind it? What is the why behind the company? Eva Norman:                 00:57                Yeah, it's quite a long story, Karen. But yeah, that definitely will help you understand why the model is the way it is. So when I was 13 years old, I was involved in a hit and run accident. And actually this was actually the weekend before I was going to go trial. I was headed to nationals or I was trialing for the Olympics and swimming. And so it was pretty life changing. My coach said, don't just go do something fun. And so, ya know, I just don't really have the best balance and obviously hindsight's always 20, 20, I don't know what crops go roller skating with my girlfriend, but I did. And so I was literally going across this crosswalk and the 72 year old man who wasn't wearing his glasses that day and drinking, unfortunately instead of hitting the brakes at the accelerator right at the left side of my body, I'm pretty much fractured all my major bones in my left leg that I honestly referred to myself as road kill, to be honest, for a long time. Eva Norman:                 01:56                And it was very, very traumatic. I was rushed to the hospital where I was told that we needed to amputate within 72 hours. Cause that's all of my ability that we had the femoral artery. There was just, I mean, just a really weak thready pulse. And I come from a family of healthcare professionals. My father's a physician and my mom's a surgical nurse and my team took me home. They told the doctor that they would respectfully disagreed with his conclusion, obviously the diagnostics that had been made and they were going to take me home and have me heal there. So, which is pretty, I know, right. And I just remember being hooked up to morphine and thinking like in shock, of course I'm still in shock, but I trusted my father, but I just remember thinking, okay, how's this going to go? Eva Norman:                 02:47                And I remember the doctor saying, you realize you're leaving the hospital AMA. And my father's like, I perfectly understand that and I work here. So yes. And so they took me home, they converted our living room into a hospital. And, I was going to the hospital for outpatients though. So the one thing my father did ask, the surgeon is to order outpatient physical therapy because at the time, sadly, there wasn't home care for kids. And even today, as we all know, there's very limited. And so I went to outpatients. You're not even going to believe this, but I had anywhere from two to three times a week at non-weightbearing for nearly four months. This was years and years ago. And so, my parents essentially the range of motion through stretching do it, just retrograde massage, acupuncture, and honestly, incredible nutrition. Eva Norman:                 03:49                So during this time, actually I got very depressed. As a matter of fact, I tried to commit suicide during this time. And so it was really dark hours, I'd have to say during my life. And I got really depressed when my father came home to tell us that our insurance had exhausted. And so you can imagine having two to three times a week of therapy for that long period of time. No wonder we reached our annual cut so quickly. And so, my dad asked the hospital if they could see me privately and they said, no, we don't do private pay. And, then my dad was like, well, do you know any other providers in the area that could do this? And they're like, no, we don't know anybody. Eva Norman:                 04:34                So of course my dad literally opens up the yellow pages. Remember back in the day we had yellow pages and just calling anyone and everybody and couldn't find anybody. I mean he researched high and low. They couldn't find anyone outside of where we were from. We're actually from a little town called holiday for Pennsylvania and couldn't find anybody. And so he took the director of the rehab program there at the hospital to breakfast one day. And he asked her if she would consider coming. And the reason is because, you know, people have often asked me like, who is your physical therapist? To be honest, I don't remember. I still don't, it's very foggy. And I've actually looked into this that it was multiple people, but the person I did remember was Jean. So she was the director of the program. I'm not going to share her last name. Eva Norman:                 05:22                Jean, if you're listening to this, hopefully someday you'll listen to this cause God knows you've heard my story before. But she is very modest and she's okay with me calling her Jean. But anyhow, I would love to share her name. I was interviewed and she said now just by first name and I'm like, okay, I want to share that because a lot of people want to know who she is. And so the person that I remember is her, cause I connected with her, she was in PR. She was honestly, my cheerleader walked in always the high fives would always give me hugs and I left. And so my dad took her to breakfast and begged her truly to come over and she said to my dad, you know, you realize I haven't touched a patient for two years. Eva Norman:                 06:04                Like, why would you ask me? I'm like, the last person you would see your daughter, you know, and my dad's like, but she loves you. She's connected with you. And she thinks that physical therapy, you're the person she remembers. And so she just come over, you know, I don't know, just talk to her. I'm just worried. And, of course my dad shared with her about the fact that I was so depressed and so I think that's really what motivated to come over. And I don't really know that she knew what she was getting herself into, but that day was honestly very transformative. And I use that word there because it truly was, she gave me hope that day. I might get emotional here cause it is very emotional for me. But she came in and it's just this holistic approach that she had. Eva Norman:                 06:49                The first thing she saw me, she said it was just this picture of depression. And she came over and gave me a hug and I honestly didn't want to let go. And, she's like, you know, she said to me, she goes, when was the last time you saw your friends? I'm like, it's been months and you know, it's been four months. My mom has me on isolation here. Essentially you're donning gloved right now because my mom's still afraid of infection. And she goes, no, I'm just, yeah. And she turned and looked at my mom's, of course, my parents are sitting there in the room and she said, you know, she needs social interaction. She needs people in her life and you know, is there any way, I mean, her friends could come over and gown and glove like I am. Eva Norman:                 07:27                And it was at that moment, I think the light bulb went off in my mom's head. Like, what have I done? You know? And so my mom, my mom is like, you know, of course she's like, you know what, I'm going to call your best friend's parents today. We'll have them over for dinner. And of course, my mom's solution, everything was always food. So I had this big dinner that she, of course, Christmas staying for. And then the next thing you know, Jean asks me, she's like, your dad tells me you're not doing your schoolwork. And you know, it's all about like, you know, she's like, you love to read. Your dad says you don't even want to read anymore. And I said, Jean it's the concussion. Cause that's something I forgot to mention earlier that I had sustained a concussion. Eva Norman:                 08:04                I'm having a hard time focusing. I'm still seeing double, you know, I'm just having a hard time concentrating and she goes, but you have the TV on. I said, I can listen. I just can't read. I just am having a really hard time with that. And she goes, well have you been doing your exercises? I think she assumed that the PT that I worked with gave you exercises and like no one's ever addressed it. No one's ever assessed it. I don't think anybody even knows that add one, except for the doctor that told me I had one. She goes, Oh my gosh. Then you could just tell by the look of her face. She was just livid. Like, gosh, how are we not addressed that? And she turns to my dad's, she goes books on tape. Remember back in the day we handle, yes. You know, that will be a great solution. Eva Norman:                 08:45                You know, she's like, go. And of course my dad's like, Oh, library down the street, I will get every book imaginable. Great idea. So moving forward. Then the next thing she says, she's like, she's like, now I understand why I haven't been to church and do you actually went to our church? And she's like, I understand your mother doesn't want you leaving this house, literally these four walls. And because she's so afraid that you're going to, you know, obviously end up with an infection. And she said, but you know, I know sister's been calling here a lot and we've been praying for you. Like, I haven't wanted her to come over. And, you know, and it was just an, and I just remember at that moment, I mean, my parents had asked the same question and I finally admitted, I said, you know, I just feel like a failure. Eva Norman:                 09:25                You know, they had just, you know, four months ago, they had this pep rally for me cause I was heading to nationals or I was going to try nationals again. And you know, I was just so happy about that. And I just honestly felt like I failed my town and my failed my school and who had, okay, there's so much time into me, like coming in, rooting me on everywhere, honestly. And, and so and she goes, no one cares about that. All right, let me be happy that your alive. And an amazing family. And she obviously was telling me everything, but you know, obviously I should be thinking, but I mean, that's really what it was, honestly eating away at me. And so, and I said, you know what, and she made me realize that that's just, that's not important. Eva Norman:                 10:07                Right? And she goes, well, would you welcome communion? I mean, is that something important? And I honestly broke down at that moment because, you know, I really thought God had abandoned me. Just for her, just to even offer that. And so I welcomed it and she's like, well, you know, sister and I were going to have dinner tonight, so how about she come over tonight as well? So like I said, that day was just amazing for me. And so just knowing that sister would come over with really miss a lot. And so as you can tell, I mean, just even just with these few little things I have shared, I mean, it was just such a holistic approach. She hasn't even touched me yet, but yet cared about, social, my emotional wellbeing. And so then this next piece she was like, okay, today for therapy we're going to take a shower. Eva Norman:                 10:54                Cause clearly we need one. And so she's asking me about like, where do you shower? I said, well, my mom washes my hair in the sink and then, you know, I sponge bathe in the bathroom, so where's your shower? And I go, well there's one in the basement. Went upstairs, but I can't do steps. And as she goes, why can't you do steps? And I said, well, my leg is just very unstable. And so, it obviously is very painful still. And, and she said, well, why couldn't you go up on your bottom? And I said, well, I don't know how to do that. Can I do that? I remember my dad, like I just remember he was interjecting was like, wait a minute, does this say for her? And she's not allowed to anyway. She's like, absolutely. And of course rolling her eyes again. Eva Norman:                 11:32                How is it, my staff is not addressed this right? So don't we see that a lot in home care? Clinics don't even ask you like how many steps you have or where your bathroom is and so forth. So Jean shows me how to get up there. She has, my mom had her wrapped my leg, literally had my first shower on the second floor, I mean, in four months. Oh my God. And then I get into my bed for the first time in four months. And so now I'm just crying uncontrollably. I'm just so happy. And it truly, I honestly have hope for the first time. And,I remember her really close to me on the bed and she literally grabs me and like my two arms pretty firmly. And she looks at me like really close and she's like, yeah, Eva do you trust me? Eva Norman:                 12:16                I go, Jean, I love you. Like, and I'm sorry and I'm going to get emotional right now. I'm like, of course I trust you. And she said like, why don't we have you back? She's like, well, we're not done yet. We haven't done exercise yet today. But she's like, I will be back. She's like, I want you to know is that you will walk some day. Do you believe me when I say that? Yes, I do. And this was, I mean, of course I've been told by, I mean we had had numerous specialists now, you know, had okay examined me and it was like conclusive apparently according to them. It wasn't scary. Oh, it was. And so that day was the start of a whole new life for me. And, I mean literally eight months later. Eva Norman:                 13:03                Tell them this is the day I was walking with no deficits like in or anything, it really was amazing. He was coming anywhere from two to three times a week. But who did she bring along the way? She brought an OT. She brought a speech therapy because of my concussion, I also ended up with you have ADHD as a result. And I also worked with a dietician to work on my nutrition. I had massage because I had a lot of pain on my leg. Chris, I had mentioned it's an acupuncture earlier. So good luck even today at live your life. I was just thinking that is all said and done. My mom made. So I made two promises, went to my mom. Okay. My mom promised God that if I lived that we would give back. And so from that day, like literally my mom had me volunteering at every PT location, whether it was adult day program, LPP, clinic, you name it. Eva Norman:                 14:06                I was there when I applied to PT school. I had 3,600 hours of volunteer hours. And that was all with my mom. And, then of course today you could see why it means so much to me to give back to them that I love so much and I'm obviously long story how I got into government affairs, but I think that honesty is the best way that I feel like I have to give back. And then, with regards to the promise that I made my father, my father made me promise it some day I would have a business where I could help others in similar situations. So it's very personal to me and obviously it's kinda been like this healthcare ministry in a sense to me. I'm very spiritual but it's just also just become this. Yeah, just something that I'm just so passionate about. Eva Norman:                 14:50                And so I started out, so the company started with just physical therapy initially. It's because I would do what I knew best and what I felt comfortable with. And just so you know, by the way, Jean is still my life helped me get into PT school, had my first clinical with her. And the time I graduated, she has seven like thriving clinics all over Pennsylvania. I mean she's doing as she's teaching the last that she sold her businesses now teaching on a penny towards retirement but still doing amazing. And so now I feel like I'm somewhat following in her footsteps and so like it took a while though cause people always ask, they're like this is somebody that you obviously had this promise to make and cause I was afraid of failure to be honest. Eva Norman:                 15:48                And it sadly took this horrible job to finally take the plunge to be honest. That's usually how it works though, right? And so, I'll never forget the day that then I left that job, which honestly was great day, but my husband said, you know, good for you because this is literally how the company started. And so we go to Buka is you know how they have like the table nets that are just, you know, okay you could with crayons, right. All over and so forth. And we wrote my business plan downstairs just on crayons and stuff. He wrote like generic little business plan but then coming up with the name. Right. So how did we come up with live your life? So I mean we had another sheet, all these words that were meaningful to us, right as a couple. Eva Norman:                 16:35                We had thought of that cause we don't, we talked about the business for so long and Dan was so supportive of this and so, and I remember like, I mean they're literally words live like these words are everywhere, you know, in physical therapy. And I mean there's was just like live, well I remember there's all these different like verses, you know that I envisioned it so forth. And I'm not even kidding you, but I have to share this. Cause people always ask like, how did you finally come up with that? So we're sitting there and you know, there's music always jam and right. And sure enough, Rihanna comes on the side, live your life. And I'm like, and I literally called Paul walk at that moment, he was like business lawyer. I’m like file it right now. Eva Norman:                 17:16                Like file it right now. We're not changing our buys like you know, and so we filed literally that day. So it's just such a great name. As we're putting the business plan together, of course this is something I had thought about for quite some time, but the common thread, cause I had been doing home care now at that point. I'm sorry for how many years I been doing at point 10 years. Yeah. At that point. That was almost seven years ago. January 2013. Yeah, I would say essentially open our door I think. But at that point, what I was most frustrated is with the, the noncommunicable diseases, right. From an unhealthy lifestyle. Such like retention, that diabetes, obesity of your RDCs, you know Karen, stroke, cancer, some of the things that truly, I mean that are honestly draining our healthcare system and we're going bankrupt as a result. Eva Norman:                 18:21                And I'm like, so much of this can be prevented. And I'm so sick of seeing the vicious cycle again and again, repeat patients over and over and over again. I meant seeing them, you know, or it's the pneumonia with the hip fracture on and on and the multiple falls. So it's just this just crazy. I'm like, gosh, we had to do better. And I've always had such a passion for prevention, hence my background where I kind of brought in right. You know, just that holistic approach and just going well beyond just rehab. And so like every patient just prior to this was always going home with some type of what I would call a wellness program. And so I knew I wanted to go in that niche, but I wasn't sure kind of, you know, who to target. Right. And I should start small initially, but you know, I dunno, can I never go small? Eva Norman:                 19:12                What are those things where you just go big or go right, So yeah, let's do the whole spectrum. Since my head said safe and they're like, okay, how about it? Because this all happened to me at 13 we go 13 end of life. Perfect. Let's start there. And it truly is 13 end of life by the way. Still today. So, okay, so that's our target market and then, okay, so who, and what are we going to target? I'm like everything, everything, every noncommunicable diseases, things that we can prevent, those are going to be, those are going to be like their target things. And so of course they started doing research throughout Minnesota to see where, what towns do we target. I mean it was amazing. Eva Norman:                 19:53                I found out that like the city of Minnetonka has the most falls than any other city, which is not far from here. And I found that out by looking at the emergency room statistics, you know, so just started targeting like different cities based on, you know, some of that I'd been doing and done that was out there obviously for anyone to find. And so then I'm like, okay. And of course it was just me initially. Right. And I was thankful that I was doing my, it’s called a certified exercise expert for the aging adults certification around that same time. And, my lab partner happened to be a PT that wanted to go to cash based business. So it was like my first hire. It was great. And so because I quickly knew right away that I needed to have a backup cause I'm like, I'm never going to be going on vacation, you know? Eva Norman:                 20:43                Okay. Right. And how am I going to be able to, you know, continue to grow and he was willing to be that back up who were great by the way. He is now these actually now in Chicago, and doing amazing things with his cash based business but regardless. So we started small, but then I was able to, through those connections and through the certification I was able to identify like all their physical therapists that kind of wanted to start cash based businesses. So targeted them. And then I started teaching at the different universities to connect with other professors, not necessarily wanting to hire students that the professors, because a lot of times they're paying for a part time work. Right. And I thought, yeah, let's target health and wellness professionals. So it was great to kind of, that's how it started and got made. Eva Norman:                 21:36                So by the end of year one we had four PTs, one personal trainer and a dietician. And so, and it's not that I didn't want to, you know, third discipline, it's just that we couldn't find the right people. Right. That one perhaps like to be out in the community. But also that one to go you mentioned kind of area, right? Because it was NC state. I mean that was, you know, almost seven years ago. So back well defining terms in the house delegates. Eva Norman:                 22:12                For OT and speech was difficult, but sure enough, a connecting. Like I said, it's all been through relationships to be honest. Everyone that I have hired, it's literally a friend. I know someone for your mom that will work well with you and I'll see. It's been great. I was just thinking about that as earlier today. Kind of, you know, just start team. We were just thinking, because I'm planning our Christmas party right now. Like, you know, there's eight individuals that have been with me since the beginning. There's 25 of us now, so seven PTs. We have one OT, one speech therapist, five personal trainers or massage therapists, a health coach, a dietician in for admin staff and myself. So 15 of those individuals are employees and 10 are contractors. Karen Litzy:                   23:10                And so if we can just talk, I love the fact that you said you kind of did your research into different towns and tried to see what each one of those towns really needed. So when you are seeing your clients, you had mentioned your cash based, do you take any insurance at all? And so when you’re seeing patients more towards the end of their life, you know, a lot of them are Medicare beneficiaries and we had a little chat about this before we went on the air. So, and this is, I'm sure you get this question a lot. How are you seeing those people? Eva Norman:                 23:45                Absolutely. Thank you for the question. So end of life would be a lot of patients that are receiving hospice care. So when I can think of end of life, unfortunately a lot of the hospice is in the area only. We'll cover two, maybe three visits at the most of physical therapy so that we have great relationships with all the hospice here in the twin cities. So they'll refer us. Cause a lot of times, you know, people are like, I don't want mom in bed. You know, I don't want her last days to be that. She loves to walk. She loves to, you know, go downstairs and spend time with the grandkids or whatever. Eva Norman:                 24:33                So I want you to keep doing that. But I want a professional to help her do that safely. And given her medical, you know, history, you know, her medical complexities, right. Obviously. So, so they hire us. But of course sometimes it's not just physical therapy they may want, sometimes it's just, you know, sometimes they may want a massage because it's just soothing and comforting and so forth. Because they have, a lot of times they have pain and so forth. But sometimes, you know, they'll stop eating and they'll hire even our speech language pathologist to figure out, like, is there something that we could do perhaps to help stimulate the taste buds or give her perhaps mechanical soft diet or something as different type of diet perhaps to help her with eating. Eva Norman:                 25:20                And then sometimes even to our dietician will get hired as well to pick up, how can we get enough calories? We have, and I'm really happy to say this, we have had 15 at this point, 15 clients outlive hospice due to our wellness program. Yeah. Remarkable. And so, Oh, how does it work? Right? Like how do people get into our system and how do we figure out. These are the disciplines that you need it. So, absolutely. So they'll call, they'll call, they'll call 'em. You know, we can call a number. So my admin by the way, are all virtual. They're all virtual assistants. Eva Norman:                 26:06                So I have one person that literally takes the calls. So there is a series of questions that they get asked and we've actually created an algorithm. So based on how their answers are, you are headed, you know, you're obviously recommended certain different services. Now of course my admin isn't clinical so they don't make ultimate decisions, but they can kind of help start that conversation of where, you know, what they're thinking that perhaps they could benefit from. And so I take that algorithm, the results of that, and then I set up a telehealth free consultation. We do 30 minute free consultation because typically, I mean they have some questions and of course because it's cash, they should. And I open that conversation to like as many family members as they want. You'd be amazed. Like I'm, sometimes I have like the whole family because the family's paying this for mom. Eva Norman:                 26:57                Or, you know, the son that's in New York. And then, another cousin that's really involved in Texas or whatever is, you know, is on the phone is on this call. So, that's why we've started to do tele-health, calls. They want to see who I am and obviously want to meet their therapist. And that's like a great opportunity to explain, okay, so according to our algorithm, these are the services that we feel that you would benefit from. So I kind of explain what those services exactly will do for them. And then prior to that conversation, I'm also packaging something for them, you know, depending on what we think would work best for that individual given what I already know about them, I try to package some things so that they know what it's going to cost them. Eva Norman:                 27:43                They don't have to, there's no, we don't have any contracts or commitments they have to make, you know, it's obviously up to them. They can start in whenever they'd like and see us as frequently or not as frequently as they'd like. So it's really up to them. We make our recommendations, but ultimately they make the final decision. And we based that after assessments. Cause a lot of times like I'll give them kind of a ballpark of what I think it could be just based on, you know, other experiences with similar cases, you know, it's really going to come down to really determine what would be best.  We always think that way. And then at that point is really when we finalize the numbers as far as what that looks like. Eva Norman:                 28:28                And they obviously will make some times their decision as far as what they want to do. But oftentimes they do want to meet. Like who would be the dietician, just want to see if that's a good fit for mom or dad, et cetera. But it's interesting how it's usually the sons and daughters that are hiring us. And you know, we do 13 to end of life, but I'd say the majority of our clients are over the age of 65 so the majority, but yet we have the full, we do like, I mean actually my youngest right now I do, I do have a 10 year old gymnast right now that's actually a professional gymnast that is trying for Olympics. So injury-free they’re amazing. And our oldest right now is 103 and on hospice, you know, people here in Minnesota live a long time. Amen. I'm going to have a hundred year olds for that matter. We have about 15 clients that are over the age of 90 right now. Karen Litzy:                   29:42                So that's amazing. I mean I really liked this business model and I am a huge proponent of physical therapy being the forefront of wellness care because we're educated for it. We understand co-morbidities, we understand surgical procedures, past medical histories and how best to formulate a good plan of wellness for people. And I really, really feel that, you know, what you're doing in Minnesota is certainly something that can be replicated across the country. I mean, I always tell people like, Eva has a home care business in Minnesota. I mean, it's fricking cold there and there's no way. Like if she could do it, like anybody could do it. Everyone always asks, well, I don't know. I live here. Would I be able to do it? I'm like, let me tell you, yes, yes you can. You absolutely can. It just takes a little bit more work, you know, and it's a different mindset, right? Because you're all of a sudden going from in a clinic where people are just coming in one after the other to now you have to make up your schedule. You have to fill that schedule. It's not as, it's not like, I don't know about your practice, but I know with mine, like I got six new patients in the past week. Week and a half. That's a lot. You know, now in a regular clinic that might be like a day, but when you're going out to people's homes and they're paying you cash, that's a lot of new patients. So how do you guys deal with, you know, your new patient flow? Eva Norman:                 31:09                Absolutely. Great question. And so, I have to tell you this year, this time of year, so it's fall and spring are our busiest times and I'll tell you kind of why. First of all, right now they're getting ready to head South for the winter. So they're trying to get themselves as strong as possible before the holidays because they want to go to Florida, Arizona or Texas don't make sense. And then in the spring it's those that had been sedentary on the couch all winter long and suddenly they come out in the spring and sure enough things are not working the way they hope to right. Because they haven't been moving. So that's where high season. So right now it's if a 10 grit, good question to ask. Cause we do have a waiting list. It's it honestly. But what happens with the waiting list? Cause I don't think that's good customer service. Eva Norman:                 31:58                I ended up out in the fields. And so that's because a lot of times people ask me like, when do you add more PTs? Like when do you decide like you need to hire that next person. So when I get to the point where like three quarters of my week, I'm literally spending in the field, it's time to hire. And even just one week of that is like enough for me to say yes, it's time to hire an as a matter of fact work. We have a full time position right now. And I actually, I'm out now part time, but still I would say, but that's still a lot and I've been consistently that now for a while. So, yeah, we're actually down to final interviews. So I hope to have someone hopefully by next year. But that's kinda how we make that decision. Eva Norman:                 32:43                Before, it used to be like three months consistently, but now I've known that if it stays that busy, especially this time of year, it generally stays the same. Oh, and I haven't really had anyone that I've been able to, like I've had to like, you know, go from full time to part time because essentially once we have them, I keep them busy. And that's one thing too. I should probably share what's also help at this model is that it's kind of a level playing field. There's no, I mean I have the bottom up management style. Like everyone has a voice here and so everyone contributes. Everybody has a project and so perhaps developing a wellness program around what they're passionate about. So we have probably about seven projects going on right now and so just the individuals that not everybody has to do it. Eva Norman:                 33:33                But right now there's seven individuals that are developing programs around one is looking at cancer. One is looking at diabetes right now. One is looking specifically at dementia. One is looking at dementia, the other one's Parkinson's. And then we are looking at cardiac disease. Develop your like a cardiac rehab program for the community. Like for people they can't get to like the actual, you know, hospital for their cardiac rehab. And I think there's one other ends. Oh, concussions one on concussions. Huge. So those are kind of, I think that was seven. Does that sound like seven. But those are currently actively being utilized and we have multiple disciplines working on one project. So like for example, for like the dementia program, we have a personal trainer, we have an acupuncturist and a physical therapist working on that specific program. Eva Norman:                 34:28                And so they meet regularly on their own time, might be doing their own zoom meetings as well and meeting so that's sometimes we'll fill in the gaps when we have ebbs and flows. Cause as we all know in cash base world, it ebbs and flows. So that fills in their gaps. And so they know that they're always going to be full. So when they have downtime, they work on their projects, they'll work on research, they'll meet everybody, also has a mentor that which they're required to meet with regularly. So they might meet with their mentor. And also everybody is required to be a part of the professional association and in their professional association. So that might mean, you know, doing committee work might be on their downtime or you might have been asked to put a presentation together. Eva Norman:                 35:12                So they might be working on that. And you know, well up our time in so many different ways so it stays busy. So I share that because a lot of people say, well, what, what happens when there's downtime? So, but you know, all of that helps the business that leads to employee retention, professional growth in the course of the growth of the company. Which has been really one of the, I'd have to, one of the number one reasons why I think it's led to our success and our growth is because, we do empower them to essentially become these young entrepreneurs, right? And so many of them, you know, want to. So, so lot of times we do lose staff because what happens is they learn how to run their business and they go start their business. But I see that as success. Eva Norman:                 35:57                They don't compete with us. As a matter of fact, they end up taking their own little niche and they refer and we refer back and forth, which is awesome. So, really it is hard though. That's so much time and energy into them and to see them as always are, don't get me wrong, but you know, it's always great when I go to conferences and I see, you know, my young, you know my employees, my young mentees, you know, they're doing amazing things. So it's always, feels great to see that. So, but yeah, so hopefully so back to you. I mean, I'm sorry that's like, but in a lot of different directions there, but, as far as you know, we have one of actually answering your question a little bit more specific. Eva Norman:                 36:43                So we have this waiting list. But like I said, we have a dedicated, it actually monitors our schedules. You know, each professional actually has their own schedule and essentially schedules themselves. But when I say one, like if we see gaps, because they'll put, you know, if they want more patients, obviously you know, they'll put it on their schedules. Like I can take three X week. So she'll monitor that so that she knows of people in as people. And we broke up into four quadrants so for those who don't know cities, we essentially break it up into four quadrants. I'm down a new four 35 w and so we just try to keep people into your graphic areas so they're not driving all over because that's a real pain in the ass right when the snow comes down. Eva Norman:                 37:33                Probably a good hour one way. Although you might be traveling that some days, you know, seriously someday. And it has been pretty bad. Like last winter was horrible. It would take you an hour to drive just 10 miles, which is horrible as well. So, she's great about, you know, in keeping me up to date too. So her and I kind of work together as far as making sure that we keep people busy and so forth. So we might need to be reading perhaps referral sources. Oh, some people were starting, you don't, perhaps numbers are lowering in some people's schedules and so forth. But I mean, generally to be honest, they stay so busy. Yeah, I can't say that we've ever had a point where I had to be worried. Eva Norman:                 38:24                Like I always feel like there's more than enough that we can do and so on the projects too, our business and they get incentivized to bring in business so we bonus them and so forth. So, you know, people are, we really truly work very collaborative and well together to grow the business. As a matter of fact, one thing I should've mentioned earlier with this interprofessional team that we have established kind of, okay, how do we decide when disciplines come in? Like I need to have packaged something together for someone, you know, PT health coach or I'm sorry, PT, dietician. I think I mentioned speech therapist earlier with an hospice patient. So we meet once a week through zoom and we actually have a care conference while we go through some of these cases where we'll problem solve, you know, when can we bring in the next system? Eva Norman:                 39:09                Cause sometimes we don't want to throw everybody all, first of all they're paying cash for that. But also it may not be the best, you know, obviously may not be the best approach. And so we talk through that, you know, as far as who would be best right now, you know, and so forth. Like we just, I have a lady right now that the doctor's recommending like steroid injections for her back, you know, and of course we hear that all the time. And so, okay. So my acupuncturist gets on, she's like, tell her all about me. I'm like, Oh, I already have, you know. And I'm like thinking you might be the next thing because she's ready to like literally go with the steroid injection and possibly an opioid because she is so much pain. But let's have you come in. Eva Norman:                 39:46                And so, you know, we look at you, you know, sometimes one discipline may merge quickly just because of something like that coming up. So, you know, but again, we constantly communicate, we're taking notes, we share kind of even, you know, our notes that we take from care conferences. Sometimes I always say we need to eliminate sometimes let it marinate in the brain to see, okay, well Whoa, would work best perhaps or these patients, sometimes we need to really think that through. And depending on what's going on and perhaps finances to it and also the support or lack of support that they may be having. You know, and I think on, I'm very ethical to like, that's the other thing too, like if we feel that they can get a service covered elsewhere, we will share that with them. And we also try to help them figure out ways that they can get this covered. You know, there's a lot of associations out there. I don't know if you guys are aware that, you know, like for example, for a stroke, the national stroke association, both your local and national, they sometimes will have stipends out there for wellness dollars that you can actually apply for. So Parkinson's has done that stroke muscular dystrophy. Eva Norman:                 40:53                Most of them are multiples, so we'll have them tap into those resources. If you're a veteran, sometimes the VA has, well, you know, dollars set aside for that. We've found, we actually worked with a purple heart recently that was given 30 wellness visits being purple hearts and purple hearts out there. Take note that you might have a great deal with your wellness. And then all set. I'm just thinking there's also been just even private insurance plans too that sometimes have dollars for memberships and so forth. We've been able to negotiate with them to get them to use those dollars for our services. So, which has been great. So a lot of times just picking the phone and asking that question, is this possible? So, and you know, they're, you know, they're frequently trying to reduce costs, right? They don't want them in the hospitals. So they obviously appreciate what we're trying to do. Karen Litzy:                   41:44                That's great advice. I'm really glad that you brought that up. That there are resources out there that we can have our patients, we can help our patients tap into for financial resources. I think that's really important. Good, good, good. Very good. And now you had mentioned earlier that all of your assistants are virtual assistants. Where do you find your virtual assistants? Because I know that's a question that comes up all the time. Eva Norman:                 42:12                So, okay. So my virtual assistants are all, let's see, they're either in school or their moms. And they work out of their homes. And so I know that there's been, I've heard that there's virtual assistants that you can get abroad and so forth and things like that. You know, I actually just recently looked into that and she even had an interview ironically today with a woman in the Philippines, which it could be very cost effective. And I was just thinking more for just, there's just a lot of busy work behind the scenes, you know, of course with many different businesses I could save a lot of time and they're very efficient and I was just surprised like how fast they type and put spreadsheets together or actually can update some of our reports and things and wow. Eva Norman:                 42:57                This I think good. So, I dunno, it was actually, and she's very cost effective. So thinking about and haven't taken the plunge yet, but just like I said, learned about it recently and interviewed her today, but how do I find them? As I mentioned earlier that really works for us has come to me kind of handpicked from friends or they've reached out, you know, and they reached out because they heard about our company. And I have to tell you, even one of them is a previous clients, you know, that, you know, needed a job and you know, and it honestly was just the right time, you know, it was one of those things where it was, it was truly wonderful. She call it the right time because I couldn't believe that day I shouldn't say I was desperate, but I was at the point where like I wasn't finding what I was looking for and she literally, I could check off all the check boxes with her and I trusted her and I knew her. She was a client of mine and no longer a client of mine. So, and I knew she had a really strong work ethic and the hours would work perfect with her schedule. So, it just worked out. Karen Litzy:                   44:04                I think it's great cause I think a lot of physical therapists don't think about using a virtual assistant and it can be an economical way to get stuff done. So I think it's great that, you know, we kind of have that conversation around that virtual assistant and how yes, they can answer your phones or yes they can. Do you know, things like that that you would think that no, it has to be in your clinic, but if you don't have a brick and mortar clinic, then you really have to get creative and that's obviously what you've done at live your life PT. Now, is there anything else that you have found in the building up of this company that you would say to someone, boy, if you have the chance to do this to help your company, I would do it. Does that make sense? Eva Norman:                 44:59                Yes. Ah, goodness. Great question. Yeah, so you know, well, I should take you back to, you know, and also just some. Yeah, it definitely. I would say the one thing that I wish I would have done from the beginning that has helped so much since I started the business. So this would be for the new business owners I'm joining and I have to put in a plug here for the private practice section. I joined the private practice session a year into my business and I wish I had joined them prior to that would've been great cause then I, through that network of individuals, I actually ended up with two tremendous mentors that have helped me so much. When I first started out, I didn't really have a whole lot of money for all, you know, contract develop. I mean I had a lawyer and so forth, but I couldn't afford necessarily to have him generating all these contracts for me week after week after week. Eva Norman:                 46:01                Cause I would just, you know, I ended up meeting a lot of contracts initially but was really great. Is that I found some tremendous mentors. And I'll name them Sandy Norby, Mark Anderson and Tim shell. I thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast. You guys seriously helped me. Tremendous. I mean save me thousands and thousands of dollars, just sharing what you already had. And just getting me going and just also giving me the confidence and I wish I had had that. I mean, I wish I had met them prior to starting the business, you know, cause then it would've been so hard because I think I was trying to reinvent the wheel and little did I know, like there was all these people that could help me, so I can't stress enough doing that. But then now, once I started the business as far as kind of what I would recommend is, you know, the Rolodex that I have. Eva Norman:                 46:59                So one thing that I have to tell you, this phone has 7,000 contacts right now. Yes. I know guys. If you can too. All right. 7,000 and I'm not kidding you. And so I have organized it all beautifully. So I mean, anyone that I need, I literally put a profile together in their context. I labeled them based on her state, they're like their profession and how they can potentially help me. And so that has been huge. So because I mean, I go to so many conferences all over the country. I meet so many people and I'll just do that for PT. I do it for other professions that has been my saving grace. I've been able to find quality staff as a result. I've been introduced to, you know, perhaps, you know, corporations that I wouldn't normally have conversations with thanks to those connections. Eva Norman:                 47:51                And so it's almost like, I mean, that's probably been the easiest marketing that I've had. And so, and it's amazing how I'll call up someone five years after the fact that I met them and they'll just remember just based on the little conversation that I wrote, like a little, you know, the little notes that I had. They're like, Oh yeah, I do remember you. You had that cash based business in Minnesota. How's that going? I'm like, Oh my gosh, you do remember me? And so, it's great cause then we'll jump into the conversation and suddenly we're doing business together. So that has helped a lot. And as a matter of fact, sometimes they become even clients themselves. And so, yeah, developing your Rolodex but really organizing it well so that you don't forget those conversations. Use that notes section and write down what that conversation entailed, how you think that person could help you in the future or today, that kind of thing. Eva Norman:                 48:41                So that has helped. The honest thing I have to say to, you know, I'll put in a little plug cause as far as the marketing, you probably want to know too, you know, we don't do a whole lot. I'd have to say our website is one of the main things. But the other thing is, I joined BNI about five years ago. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's business network. At the time, I was the only physical therapist I've aligned to the United Minnesota, which I was really surprised cause when I read kind of what you know I was doing for other PTs across the country, I thought, well this is really hard to believe. And now of course there are more of, it's interesting how a lot of private practice section members have joined because I've also shared this with others. Eva Norman:                 49:25                And that has also been a great network of individuals kind of outside of my profession, but be able to connect to like other dieticians, other massage therapists and have been able to also, get business that way and just develop those relationships. So I guess what I'm trying to say is don't be afraid to like join like, you know, organizations like that or the rotary club, things like that. Potentially you can develop relationships outside of your usual comfort zone to meet, you know, people out there that can connect you to perhaps people that can afford your business or connect you to those that do. So. Yeah. So I would say that that would be huge. And I wish someone would've told me that like until you know, two years my business that I started. Karen Litzy:                   50:09                I mean what great advice and you know, what's the saying like your net worth is your network or your network makes up your net worth or something to that effect. And, that's essentially what, like you said, developing this Rolodex. I love the tips on adding notes into that. I'm going to remember that cause I don't do that and it's a great idea. A friend of mine that I used to play softball with asked me to join his BNI, which I think he's like doing a presentation in a couple of weeks. I'm going to try and catch it, but all amazing advice. And you know, I wanna thank you for being so open and honest about your story. I did not know any of that and that was very, gosh, I can't believe it if I'm being honest what an amazing journey you've had. And especially like, you'd never know it being as every time I see you at a conference, you're out dancing till two in the morning. So how is this possible? Eva Norman:                 51:18                Oh, he's asked me like where does that come from? I'm like, well there's a story behind it. So yeah, I mean I deeply love it and I owe my life to it. So I mean I really can say that I owe my life to physical therapy. Karen Litzy:                   51:28                Oh, what an amazing story. And the practice is great now. Where can people find more information about you and about the practice? Eva Norman:                 51:37                Absolutely. So our website is a great place. Liveyourlifept.com. But we're also on all the various social media facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube, well, a lot of different forms of social media. Let me think if anything else. No. And, and our website too, we actually have a weekly blog. And if there's anyone out there, by the way, that wants to be a guest blogger, please reach out to us. We're always looking for people to be a guest blogger for us, so we'd love that. Karen Litzy:                   52:18                Awesome. And, you know, just for everyone listening, if you go to podcast.healthywealthysmart.com under this episode, we'll have all the links to the website and all the various social media handles and things like that. So, one click, we'll get you to live your life PT, to learn a little bit more about the model and hopefully more PTs can kind of step into this world. And now I feel like I have such a better understanding about what you do and so much more appreciation for what you're doing in Minnesota. I think it's great. So thanks so much, Eva, for coming on. Eva Norman:                 52:56                Karen, thanks for having me. Karen Litzy:                   52:57                And everyone, thank you so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.   Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on iTunes!

LIVE from the Annual Private Practice Section Meeting in Orlando, Florida, I welcome Lynn Steffes on the show to discuss physical therapy consulting.  Lynn Steffes, PT, DPT is President/Consultant of Steffes & Associates a rehabilitation consulting serviced based in Wisconsin. She provides consulting services to rehab providers nation-wide. In this episode, we discuss: -How Lynn’s career evolved from treating clinician to consultant -Common consultation inquiries and solutions regarding private practice -Health and wellness advocacy within physical therapy -The importance of building a strong network of experts within your field -And so much more!   Resources: BrainyEX Website Steffes and Associates Consulting Group    For more information on Lynn: Lynn Steffes, PT, DPT is President/Consultant of Steffes & Associates a rehabilitation consulting serviced based in Wisconsin. She provides consulting services to rehab providers nation-wide. Ms. Steffes’ is a 1981 graduate of Northwestern University. She is Network Administrator for a group of 50+ private practice clinics where her primary responsibilities include marketing, payer and provider relations and contract management. She currently serves as the state-wide Reimbursement Specialist for the Wisconsin & Florida Physical Therapy Assns. In addition to her work as consultant, Ms. Steffes works as an adjunct faculty member in the physical therapy program at the University of Wisconsin, LaCrosse Physical Therapy Program, teaching professional referral relations, marketing and peer review. Lynn has addressed private practices, hospital systems, professional associations and therapy networks in forty states regarding Business Aspects of Physical Therapy. Ms. Steffes is active in her profession as a member of the American Physical Therapy Association (APTA) and the Private Practice Section of APTA. She chairs the PPS Task Force for Educational Outreach, is a member of the Impact Editorial Board & the PPS Educational Institute. She is also active in the Wisconsin Chapter of APTA – serving as the Chapter’s Reimbursement Specialist, and on the WI Medicaid Committee.   Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy:                   00:01                Hey everyone, welcome to the podcast. I am coming to you live from the private practice annual private practice section annual meeting in Orlando, Florida. And I have the distinct honor and privilege to be sitting here with Lynn Steffe's. And I know I have a lot of questions for her and we're going to get to a lot. But first, Lynn, can you just give the listeners a little bit more about where you are now with your business and what you're doing. Lynn Steffes:                                         So thank you so much for having me, Karen. This is really fun and it's especially fun because it's absolutely gorgeous. So we're sitting outside and we have, I know I'm from Milwaukee and we have six inches of snow on the ground, so I am loving this, but, awesome opportunity to communicate with a lot of PT. So I actually, I feel like I kind of do a variety of things, but I have a singular mission and vision for that, which I do. Lynn Steffes:                 00:53                And it's all really surrounding, the promotion of physical therapy as an important health care provider and service, not only in rehabilitation and healing of people, but actually in lifestyle medicine, being healthy. You have a dentist, you have a doctor, you have maybe an accountant or a massage therapist while you need a PT. And that's kind of me. So I promote physical therapy to all kinds of people. I teach at the university level, which I love. I speak all over the country. So I’ve had the privilege of speaking in 43 States, believe it or not. I do a lot of webinars, I do a lot of consulting and I work with practices as small as a guy where his mom does the billing when she feels like it. And I, by the way, don't recommend that. Lynn Steffes:                 01:43                And then I also work with systems as large as Mayo clinic. So I have kind of a variety. And obviously when you graduated from physical therapy school, you were treating patients. And I know a lot of listeners here that are physical therapists. They graduate from PT school, they're seeing patients. And oftentimes, I know this is the way I felt when I graduated as well. This is what I'm just going to be doing. I'm going to be treating patients until I retire. I didn't have the foresight, I didn't have the knowledge to say, wait, there are other things I can do. Karen Litzy:                                           So how did you go from treating patients to where you are now and at what point in your career did that shift happen? Lynn Steffes:                 02:26                Wow, I wish I had some big strategic plan to share with you that I had like this vision, but I really didn't. When I graduated, I really did pediatric physical therapy. I graduated and worked for a private practice and I worked as a contract therapist in a school district and then moved on to a rehab facility and then opened outpatient pediatric clinics in a couple States. And I kind of, I love being a therapist. I always say, you know, I could still be a physical therapist if anyone would take me, but it's been awhile. But as I was treating, I was seeing all these opportunities for physical therapy and kind of just, getting more and more experience opening businesses. And it was weird because I actually worked in a private practice and I love treating people and I love managing, I loved, but really everything I was doing, but there was just a lot of it. Lynn Steffes:                 03:20                And I think I started developing a little bit of an entrepreneurial, just like the sense that maybe I want to do some stuff on my own. I actually left the practice and interviewed with someone to become a pool therapist. And it was a PT I knew. And after I got done talking about everything I'd done, she was like, wow, Lynn. She was like, I can definitely sell you as a pool therapist, but I could, I'd love to sell you as a consultant. And I said, really? And she said, yeah. And I said, is there any reason I can't sell myself as a consultant? And she said, absolutely not. And that was kind of like this big aha moment for me. And I actually thought I would just like do a little bit of consulting until I found someplace I wanted to work and then I'd just take a job. I always assumed I wanted a job. And so I started consulting and it kind of became quickly a multiplier. And then I started thinking, well, I gotta look for a job. And I said to my husband, I gotta start looking for a job. And he said, I'm pretty sure you have a job. And it's consulting. And it's so funny because that was a long time ago, over 20 years ago. And I still love it. Karen Litzy:                   04:27                And isn't it amazing that so often it takes that person outside of ourselves, even maybe outside your family or even personal friend group to say, what are you doing? Like you can do this. So what's interesting is you needed that person to give you the push. And now in your work you're giving other people the push. Lynn Steffes:                 04:48                You know, I feel, I do, I feel super excited when I meet clinicians. And some of them are very young and some are also people who are kind of getting to a point in their career where they're looking for something else. I feel super excited when they want to do consulting. Number one. I think there's so much work to be done in, I don't feel like a sense of competition. I'm just like thrilled that people are getting into promoting what we do and being a multiplier. I think of a consultant as a multiplier. I think like if a practice comes to me and they wanted to start, for example, you know, a running program, Oh my God, I've already worked with seven practices that have started running programs. Somebody comes to me and they want to revise their compensation plan. I can, you know, it's like I kind of become a repository for everybody's experience. I would say I'm a kid in a candy store and as I travel I like gather up wonderful people and just a lot of cool stuff that people do. Karen Litzy:                   05:52                And so what would you say are the people coming to you for your work as a consultant? What are the most common things that you are seeing that people are like, Hey, we really need help with this? Lynn Steffes:                 06:04                Well, I feel like everybody needs help with revenue and so anything to do with like marketing promotion, they need help with payer contracting and dealing with third party payers who seem to want to put up roadblocks all the time. And I just have, I have a unique, you know, perspective on that and I've worked with third party payers and I feel like I just am marketing to third party payers. I feel like people come when they look at, you know, how are we going to grow and how are we going to grow in the revenue? And I tap on the shoulder also and go, Hey, yet look at your expenses too. I feel like that's a big thing. I also think compliance, I think we're so burdened and so I try to work with people on what they need to do, but I do it in a different way than a lot of people. I think a lot of people are like into what I call the scary complaints. Like, Oh, you're going to get in trouble. And I do mention that, but I also look at people and I say, you know what, you need to communicate your value in a better way. And if we did that, we'd be in better shape. So that's kind of a variety. Starting cash programs is super fun. Karen Litzy:                   07:16                And do you mean cash programs within a traditional therapy clinics? So for people listening, there are a traditional clinics, I guess we can categorize them as such that are, they take your insurance. So if you call up a clinic and you say, I have blue cross blue shield, do they take it? Yes. Great. So when you say you help with cash programs, is that within a traditional clinic or within like an out of network or do you help establish a cash practice? Lynn Steffes:                 07:45                Both. So I feel like there are people who do, they're excellent young therapists, consultants who have developed cash based programs and who, that's all they really talk about. And so I definitely work with a lot of hybrid practices. So practices that have one foot on the dock where you know, the third party payment environment is and one foot in cash base and they're developing other programs. Sometimes I'm working with people that are all cash. Sometimes I refer them to people that are focused on all cash. I also think like, I think we've kind of only just begun in the services we're providing that would just third party payer covered is so limited for PT and there's so much we can do if we just are willing to collect money. Karen Litzy:                   08:33                And, you know, I think in a traditional therapy setting, I think because physical therapy is always associated with the healthcare system, with the physician, we used to always need a physician referral. So the public's expectation is we take insurance because no one would ever go to a massage therapist, a personal trainer, Pilates or yoga and expect them to be covered by their insurance. Lynn Steffes:                 08:56                I completely agree. But I have this thought. First of all, I'm just going to say out loud and I hope it’s not offending anyone, but I don't like dentists because I just don't like people messing around in my mouth. But I think dentists have figured it out. They have 100%. I feel like physical therapy as a profession has to grow up to be more like the dental profession. I mean, you know, a hundred years ago, dentists, like basically you saw them when you had to have a tooth knocked out and they were kind of that provider of last resort. They, they really were, a last resort kind of provider. And they have evolved being an amazing healthcare provider. They do prevention, they do treatment, they have specialties, they do cosmetics, they do performance. So there's so many things that are parallel, and I don't know about you, but when I go to the dentist, when I walk in and have something done, they tell me, well, this is what your insurance covers and this is not. Karen Litzy:                   09:49                Yeah. And I don't have any dental coverage, but guess what I still do every year I go to the dentist. And PT is, so some of it is the consumer mentality. Like I paid a premium, it should cover PT, I don't doubt that. But a lot of people have dental insurance and they still pay for other things. I think some of it is awesome. Lynn Steffes:                 10:11                It's a mindset shift that we have to have. We have to say this is what your plan covers and these are other services that would benefit you that we recommend. So a lot of times that I'm promoting a program, like for example, the annual PT physical or I'm very interested in lifestyle medicine and brain health and the kind of things people go, well, which insurances cover it? And it's like, okay, that shouldn't be your first question. The first question should be, would this bring value to my patients and my community? And if it does, is there something that's paid that's an inappropriate question but not like who's going to cover in it and if it's not covered. Lynn Steffes:                 10:44                So some of the mentality shift is our own paradigm. So yeah, and I think there does need to be that shift of this is my expertise, this is what I offer looking around in my community. Would they benefit from XYZ program, a program on brain health, which I know, you have, right? So is this something my community would like because it's not about us. We have to be worried about the end user, which is our client, our patient, however you want to, whatever kind of word you want to put for them. But I do think that from a profession wide standpoint, that that needs to shift. And I think if it can shift, I think you're right, you'd be seeing a lot more hybrid practices where yeah, maybe you take insurance, but you have a brain health, you have a vestibular program, you have a wellness program that can happen. And I think that's where, I mean I totally think there is a 100% place for all cash or all third party. But I think we all kind of went in with more of a hybrid idea. Lynn Steffes:                 11:54                We would be able to leverage what insurance pays for our patients. And honestly, a lot of people don't want to do insurance cause they say, well it limits the number of visits. Well guess what? If it limits the number of visits, you still can do cash outside of that. You know what I mean? Like I'm always like, why can't we see that? And so it's interesting that I study like dental marketing and dental operations as a way of just having insight into a different provider even though they're not my favorite healthcare provider. So yeah, I think it's really interesting. Karen Litzy:                   12:28                And what advice would you have for someone listening who maybe wants to start shifting their practice? Going from being a treating physician, from being a treating physical therapist or physician or nurse practitioner or even a dentist. So how could they go from a full time treatment to consulting? Like, do you have to take extra classes? Do you need certifications? Do you, you know, all that kind of real practical stuff. Lynn Steffes:                 13:00                All right. So really good question. Well, I think first it's a self examination of like what are you good at, passionate about, interested in, and a willingness to share. And, you know, when I first became a consultant I thought I had to know everything and I just realized I just have to like know enough and I have to know, I have to ask you questions so that I can learn what you need and then partner with you to create that to happen. So as a consultant, I did go take additional courses. I took courses through the small business administration through our local college. We have a local women's college that has a business and evening business series. I did some of that. I talked to other consultants and actually I find that, you know, sometimes people come to me and they'll say they want to be a consultant and then I'll have a conversation with them and I'm kind of like, Hmm, okay. Lynn Steffes:                 13:48                There's a couple of things you need to do, and you need to listen. I feel like that's hard. I think some people think they just want to tell people what to do, but you kinda gotta listen to what they want and be able to do some diagnostics. I think, getting hands on experience, as much book knowledge and classes as you take in all of that, unless you can relate to somebody's problems and say, yeah, I was kind of bad at that and I learned how to do it. Or, this is where I was and here are the steps. I just feel like that that would be a struggle. So I think getting hands on experience. If you're working in a facility or practice, Hey, volunteer to run a project, get on a committee, take the lead, asked to be involved in interviews, asked to be the marketing person, asked to work with your billing and payment, get involved in the association because I've gotten a ton of contacts and I also, like, I always say it like if I'm the smartest person I talked to all day, that's not good. Lynn Steffes:                 14:48                So I know so many people that are so smart, I feel like I can pick up the phone and call them. So they're multipliers for what I'm able to help people with. I think there are steps in a big thing is hands-on, firsthand experience. Another thing is goal lists. Go take some extra classes, do some reading, but work with experienced people and kind of stick your neck out. I've been consulting for over 20 years and people will call me and say, Hey listen, I got this project, do you do this? And I'm like, you know, yeah, I guess I do, but I haven't done it before but it sounds like fun and if I'm in too deep I just call people. Karen Litzy:                   15:27                Yeah. That's great. So kind of look for those mentors or friends or like you said, colleagues, people in, I mean we're here at PPS, so it might be people at PPS, it might be your neighbor, it might be, I always say to like, don't overlook your family and your friends because there's a wealth of knowledge there as well. I always tend to look out and I'm like, Oh, what about the person right in front of me who knows how to do X, Y, Z, why am I not asking them? Lynn Steffes:                 15:51                Well, it's funny because I was working with a practice that wanted to work with more personal injury attorneys and those kinds of patients. That was something they were interested in doing. And I'm very skilled practitioner in working on spine and cervical issues. I thought, you know, this is a good fit. And he's like, I just don't know how to do it. And so I was like, okay, I know of someone who knows, you know, was an injury attorney who I respected and I just contacted her and I paid her for a couple hours and I interviewed her and spend time with her. Just going through like, what did you want? What's important? All kinds of stuff. What about communications? What is, you know, what would discourage you from using a provider? How do you decide who's a prefered? And it was weird because as soon as the interview was done, it wasn't cheap, but it was so worth it. And she kind of said to me, she goes, you know, I need some good PTs. The more I ask, the more I talked to you, the more I realized like, I know what I need and I don't know if I know who it is. And so it's funny that you know, there are a lot of resources out there. Karen Litzy:                   16:55                Yeah. And so from what I'm hearing is one, don't be shy, can't be shy. Don't be shy too. Don't worry if you don't know everything right now because you can learn it in a short amount of time. And this sounds so crazy coming from me as I'm interviewing you, but I love the idea of interviewing people, but I didn't, I don't know why I never even thought of that before to say why don't really know this, but I know this person does. So let's have a formal interview. Not just like a one or two emails, but really take, like you said, take the time, pay for the time if you need to so that you can really understand what that person needs to help your upcoming client like as you can. I guess you can always do the research so we don't just have to stick to things that we think we know we can expand. Lynn Steffes:                 17:45                Well, and I think as a PT, I remember as a young PT had a patient once that had a child with osteogenesis imperfecta and I'd never seen it before. I was getting a referral for it and I was like, okay, I don't know what I'm doing. So I just like went on the web and look for a PT that treated that. I found someone out at NIH, national Institute of health. I sent her an email and we set up a call and I went through everything. She sent me her protocols. It was like, and I just realized PTs are such incredibly generous people. A lot of people are generous. PTs are exceptionally generous with that. And that kind of taught me like, Hey, don't be afraid to admit you don't know. I have worked with or had exposure to people have worked with consultants who kind of know what all is. Lynn Steffes:                 18:35                And at some level people are like, Oh, we're really excited about them. But it doesn't create long term relationships if you don't say, Hey, that's a good question, let's figure it out. You know? So I don't know. I don't have all the answers, but I sure love the questions. You know, I love that. Love it. That should be like my motto for life. I don't really have any answers, but I love to have lots of answers. But I think what struck me from what you just said, is that we can use our skills as physical therapists. We know how to research, we know how to look up diagnoses and treatments and protocols so we can take those skills and transfer them into consultancy skills. Oh my God. So what I have as a process, when I work with practices, I call differential diagnosis. Lynn Steffes:                 19:27                For your practice. And I basically do diagnostics and then I have a hypothesis and then I write a plan. Then I work on implementing the plan and then we stop and measure and we figure out what's working and what isn't. And of course there are plans just like there are a few, if you treat a lot of knees, you have certain plans you use that usually work. And so over time you kind of accumulate solutions. But I still customize. I think some people like the canned solutions and it probably is more cost effective, but I still like working one on one. Karen Litzy:                                           I think this is great. Thank you so much. I'm like learning so much here. It seems like your career keeps evolving. Do you have anything coming up that's kind of different than what you're doing? Lynn Steffes:                 20:15                Wow, that's a really good question. First of all, thank you for giving me opportunity to talk about this stuff, but so I have a really big birthday coming next week and I don't need to share the number but it's a pretty big one and a lot of my friends are retiring and I'm always kind of like, what am I going to do next? I'm still, I don't know, I don't know, I just the way I am, but I have been working in the area of brain health for awhile and, and have a signature turnkey brain health program and I have two. I have one thing I want to do with that program and that is to very specifically, instead of just going into the PT market with it, I want to actually start approaching active senior centers and working with their activity people and their exercise and fitness people. Lynn Steffes:                 21:07                Because I think the active senior centers have all the tools. They have all the mechanism, they have this captive audience but they don't connect the dots, which is how cognition and wellness fit. So that's something fun I want to do with brainiacs. And then the other thing is I really want to continue to push lifestyle medicine and PT and I want to connect with other like-minded PTs. There was a young PT that I'm kind of that's just starting out. I want to mentor her. She is very interested in lifestyle medicine and exercise and how it relates specifically to anxiety and depression. I feel like we have so many opportunities we haven't even tried to do. And so this year I came out early to go to lifestyle medicine conference, which was next, which was early. Yeah, it was on the front end. So how perfect. But next year I want to be talking at it. Karen Litzy:                   21:52                Perfect. We'll get that pitch in there and talk at it. That's awesome. And I have one more question that I ask everyone, but before we get to that, if you can talk a little bit more about just the basics of the foundations of the brainiacs program, just because you'd mentioned it and I just want people to understand what that is. Lynn Steffes:                 22:21                Sure. So I have always, you know, as a peds therapist and adult neuro therapists, I've always been into brain neurology and the flexibility and the adaptability and really the plasticity of the human brain. And I've seen back in the day when we didn't think anything could change after childhood, I saw it could. And so I was always kind of like, yeah, we don't know everything. And now we know much more. But unfortunately my parents both passed from Alzheimer's disease. And so when that happens, when you have two parents diagnosed, it kind of scares you. And so I started doing research on brain health and what the literature showed and it's very clear that, you know, prevention, mitigation, and cognitive fitness and health is not just a learning and study and you know, read a book to us to do code. It really is a physiological thing. And exercise probably has the strongest evidence. And so I started a turnkey program and with the basis of it BrainyEx. Lynn Steffes:                 23:24                And prescribed exercise at a certain level of walk around. The block is nice, but it doesn't really do the whole job. And so how to prescribe and train someone to, you know, extra as at a proper level. And then I also added health and wellness education that's evidenced based too, it's nutrition, sleep hygiene, stress management, activity management, socialization. And so PTs, we're constantly doing patient education where we're like perfectly suited to do 100% instead of having people come and sit in a class, I'm like, okay, let's work out and teach. And so it's been pretty fun. I have clinics in 13 States doing it now, which I love. Karen Litzy:                   24:01                Yeah, that's awesome. We'll have a link to that on the website at podcast.healthywealthysmart.com if people want to find out more information because people aren't getting any younger in this country. And so it's really important and you're right, PT's I think are ideally positioned to be the ones to work with that population. So excellent program. Now, the question that I ask everyone, this is the last question. I probably should have prefaced this to you beforehand, but knowing where you are now in your business and in your life, what advice would you give to yourself as a new grad out of PT school? Lynn Steffes:                 24:42                That is such a good question. I honestly, it's weird because I don't think my expectations were high enough as a new grad. I get that. And I think similar to what you said, that everybody graduates from PT school and you kind of think you're going to be a PT and I love being a PT and PT is such an incredible profession, but I never dreamed I would be traveling across the country writing chapters to books, developing my own programs, having an opportunity to speak in front of hundreds of PTs teaching at the university. I never thought of all the possibilities. So I guess as a PT I would say like open your eyes and look not only for what you can do one on one with patients, which is incredibly important, but look for opportunities that multiply our profession. And I think I would've told myself earlier on, like I feel like I started early doing it, but I still think I could have even had the vision earlier and you know, and just ask people for help. I love it when people come to me and say, this is something I want to do. Will you help me? I feel like it's an honor, you know? Karen Litzy:                   25:59                Great, great advice. So great advice for all those students in school and just graduating from PT school or really any programs. So thanks so much. Where can people find you? Lynn Steffes:                 26:09                So I have a website, www.steffesandassociates.com and I also have a website for my brain health program, www.brainyex.com. You can always find me at all the meetings. Karen Litzy:                   26:29                Very true. So Lynn, thank you so much. And just so everyone knows, we'll have links to everything in the show notes for this podcast on the website podcast.healthywealthysmart.com. So Lynn, thank you so much for taking the time out at a PPS and enjoying sitting outside in Orlando before both of us have to go back to our cold places. At least New York doesn't have snow yet. Lynn Steffes:                                         Yeah, we have snow. Hopefully it'll build. Thank you, Karen. You do a great job of, I think sharing a lot of good information and talking to people who are thought leaders and people who have different ideas. And I think that's pretty important. Karen Litzy:                                           Thank you so much. And everyone listening, thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.   Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! 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On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Shelly Prosko on the show to discuss compassion in healthcare. Shelly is a physiotherapist, yoga therapist, educator and pioneer of PhysioYoga with over 20 years of experience integrating yoga into rehabilitation with a focus on helping people suffering from persistent pain, pelvic health conditions and professional burnout. She guest lectures at yoga and physiotherapy programs, presents at medical and yoga therapy conferences globally, provides mentorship to health providers, and offers onsite and online continuing education courses for yoga and health professionals. Shelly is a Pain Care U Yoga Trainer and maintains a clinical practice in Sylvan Lake, Canada. She is co-editor of the book Yoga and Science in Pain Care: Treating the Person in Pain. In this episode, we discuss: -Can compassion be trained? -The six elements of Halifax’s model of enactive compassion -Empathic distress, compassion fatigue and burnout among healthcare practitioners -The five facets of comprehensive compassionate pain care -And so much more!   Resources: Shelly Prosko Twitter  Shelly Prosko Instagram  Prosko PhysioYoga Therapy Facebook Shelly Prosko Youtube Shelly Prosko Vimeo Physio Yoga Website Yoga and Science in Pain Care: Treating the Person in Pain   For more information on Shelly: Shelly Prosko, PT, C-IAYT, CPI, is a Canadian physiotherapist, yoga therapist, author, speaker and educator dedicated to empowering individuals to create and sustain meaningful lives by teaching and advocating for the integration of yoga into modern healthcare. She is a respected pioneer of PhysioYoga, a combination of physiotherapy and yoga. Shelly guest lectures at medical colleges, teaches at yoga therapy schools and yoga teacher trainings, speaks internationally at yoga therapy and medical conferences, contributes to academic research, provides mentorship to healthcare professionals and offers onsite and online continuing education courses for yoga and healthcare professionals on topics surrounding chronic pain, pelvic health, compassion and professional burnout. Her courses and retreats are highly sought after and have been well received by many physiotherapists, yoga professionals and other healthcare providers. She is a Pain Care Yoga Trainer and has contributed to book chapters and is co-editor and co-author of the textbook Yoga and Science in Pain Care: Treating the Person in Pain by Singing Dragon Publishers. Shelly is a University of Saskatchewan graduate and has extensive training in yoga therapy and numerous specialty areas with over 20 years of experience integrating yoga therapy into rehabilitation and wellness care. She considers herself a lifelong student and emphasizes the immense value gained from clinical experience and learning from her patients, the professionals she teaches and the colleagues with which she collaborates. She maintains a clinical practice in Sylvan Lake, Canada and mentors professionals who are interested in pursuing this integrative path. In addition to her many skills as a healthcare practitioner, Shelly is also an accomplished figure skater and has traveled the world with many professional ice shows. She is passionate about music, dance and spending quality time with family and friends. Shelly believes that meaningful connections, spending time in nature and sharing joy can be powerful contributors to healing and well-being. Please visit www.physioyoga.ca for more info and resources.   Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy:                   00:01                Hey Shelly, welcome to the podcast. I am excited to have you on. This is going to be fun today. Shelly Prosko:               00:07                Thank you for having me. Really excited to talk about this. Karen Litzy:                   00:11                So I spoke to your coauthor Neil a couple of weeks ago, talking about your book, yoga science and yoga and science and pain care, treating the person in pain. And I'm really excited to dig into sort of your writing within this book because you are writing about compassion. So before we get into the nitty gritty, what is compassion? How do you define it? Shelly Prosko:               00:41                So believe it or not, there actually is not one agreed upon definition. So that's the first thing is some people describe it as a trait. Others say it's more of an emotion. Some people say it's like a motivation or behavior. But the definition that I use in my chapter is the one that is kind of the working definition that the leading compassion researchers use in the Oxford handbook of compassion science. So that's kind of like the compendium, the Bible of all the thought leaders and researchers around compassion. So that definition, the working definition there is basically compassion is first and foremost. You have to be able to recognize that someone is suffering or struggling or in need. And then the second component is then we have to have the motivation to want to do something about it to alleviate or to help. So basically recognizing the suffering with the motivation to relieve and that is not just us and someone else that's also within ourselves. So compassion also includes the self compassion piece and that is I think really important for us to keep in mind. Karen Litzy:                   01:56                Yeah, I was going to say, and would you say that having compassion for yourself allows you to be more compassionate towards others? Do you feel like it's a prerequisite for compassion as a healthcare provider? Shelly Prosko:               02:13                That's a really good question. From my perspective, I think it helps. The more self-compassion we have, the more compassionate we can be for others. But the research is kind of right now from what I've been reading, actually, I just listened to a recent podcast a couple of days ago and with a couple of the leading researchers. And there still is no really solid evidence that increasing self-compassion translates to increased compassion for others or that increasing compassion for others translates to increased self-compassion. That said, there is some research that shows cultivating self-compassion does seem to help increase compassion for others. So we have a bit of research that says that. And my own personal view would be yes, I don't know if it's a prerequisite, but I have noticed in my own self without making this like a therapy session, I have noticed that I scored quite low on self-compassion and I have traditionally been quite, you know, self critical and hard on myself. But as I've learned more about this stuff and practicing self compassion, what that is and, and exploring it and experiencing it, I feel like I overall am just understanding more of what compassion is. And I feel like maybe I'm, you know, more compassionate. It could be just age and stuff too and experience, but that'd be my answer to that. Karen Litzy:                   03:46                And why is compassion important in the care of people in pain? So how does it benefit me as a healthcare provider to understand compassion? When I'm working with people in pain. Shelly Prosko:               04:02                Yeah. So I just want to be clear that sometimes people equate, you know, just being compassionate, they just equate that to being kind, you know, and it's just should be common sense and just don't be a jerk. You know, a lot of people just say, well just, it's not that hard. But, you know, there it is a little more nuanced than that. And just going back to your question on, you know, what are some of the benefits if we actually look at the, the deeper layers of compassion and which I can get into a little bit there later, but the components that go into offering compassion and also self compassion towards, you know, yourself. Lot of the research shows, I mean, stuff that we're not probably really surprised at. Like it can increase quality of care for our patients, increase patient outcomes, increase patient satisfaction, increase therapeutic Alliance, and increased patient self care. Shelly Prosko:               05:04                So I want to just briefly talk about this cause I think it's really important and we don't think about this part of compassion, but there's this one study that I talk about in the book chapter and it was an entire year long. It was in an integrative rehab hospital and it showed there was a hundred women who are living with chronic pain and it showed that it was only once these women actually experienced what it was like to be loved, cared for, to be seen, to be heard. In other words, to have actually to receive compassionate care. Only then could they take active steps towards their own self care, which I think is really important in pain care because so often we talk about how important it is for our patients to play an active role in their pain care. We're always talking about that. Shelly Prosko:               05:55                The literature says that we're trying to help our patients make healthier choices, et cetera. And now we have some research that says, well, you know what, if we provide this very in depth, nuanced, compassionate care, it looks like people that are patients are then more likely to, you know, better make better choices. And it's neat. Some of the women, what they were saying, things like they felt worthy, they felt loved and yeah, worthy enough to be cared for. And I just think all of that is so fascinating. So those are some of the, you know, the benefits to providing compassionate care, but there's also benefits to us as the healthcare provider. So what some of the research is showing is that it can actually help protect against burnout. Shelly Prosko:               06:51                We can dive into that a little bit later too in some of the myths, you know, around too much compassion. But, you know and also just overall the positive health outcomes are increased in us as the health care provider and even things like reduced anxiety, depression, even stuff like reduced medical costs and errors and malpractice claims. Like this is just what all the research is saying. But then I think the other part of it that I do want to really highlight is the self compassion piece. So there is benefit for the person in pain to practice self compassion is what some of the research is showing us now and there is also benefit for us as the healthcare provider to practice self compassion. And again some of that for us as a healthcare provider is like reducing burnout, reducing excessive empathy, which they're calling, you know, empathic distress or empathy key things like that. Shelly Prosko:               07:49                It helping us improve our emotional resiliency and like we said, potentially even increased concern for others, but in the patient, and this is what I thought was so fascinating as of now, I think there's only about five or six studies out there, but they do show that people in pain that either have higher self compassion or some of the studies actually show people in pain. Doing these self compassion practices actually can show reduced pain severity, reduced anger, reduced psychological distress or things like depression, anxiety and even increased pain acceptance. You know, we know there's some benefits. Especially with the ACT, acceptance commitment therapy research, we're starting to see how that's important and, you know, there's even some links to reduce pain catastrophization and rumination and decreased fear avoidance behaviors. And it's just really fascinating. And I think, just the last bit here on that, on that question is increased self-compassion has been shown to reduce our own self criticism and increase our motivation to actually change our behaviors. Karen Litzy:                   09:02                We're just talking today, Nisha mind who's a psychiatrist. And we were just saying, man, how hard it is to change behaviors for human beings. Cause she was talking, she has a dog. And how with a dog, you know, you can change behaviors by motivating them through food. So they have these incentives or incentivize through food. Humans, it's a little bit harder how difficult it is to change behavior in a human being. So now if compassion and practicing self-compassion can help with behavior change, how do we change compassion? I mean, how do we train compassion? Can we train it? Shelly Prosko:               09:47                Yeah. So the literature says yes, it is trainable and we have quite a bit now and there's different programs and different styles. And I think, you know, there's a lot of different models and I think probably just to make it easiest for us here as I'll talk through this one model that I really like. It's Joan Halifax and she's an anthropologist and a meditation teacher and a few other things. But she has a really nice model of inactive compassion. And what she talks about is, you know how I said the definition of compassion was in recognizing the suffering first and then having the motivation to alleviate it. She actually goes beyond this and she says that definition's a little bit limiting because compassion is actually more of a dynamic emergent process. So it's more of a wisdom that emerges within the context of the environment that we're in, which makes sense. Shelly Prosko:               10:53                If you know anything about systems theory or emergent theory and you know, so if we're in a room together with our patient, you've got the patient not person in everything, they're dynamic, you know, evolving system right there in that moment. And then there's us, we're also a dynamic, evolving system that we come together in the context of the environment. And that even changes the dynamic or influences. So compassion can emerge from that interaction, from a series of elements that are actually non compassionate in and of themselves. So we can train and these six elements, and again, this is Halifax's model, but we can train these six elements and it saw like you just train one and then you train the other. It's not linear there, you know, it's like I said, an interdependent integrative process. But I think it's just really fascinating because this is something accessible and tangible. Shelly Prosko:               11:53                And in the book I go obviously into depth and I'll just try to keep this short. But the first element is the attentive domain. So that's just being fully and wholeheartedly a hundred percent present and you can, we can cultivate our focus or concentration ended up and our attention through a whole host of different ways. Whether it's different mindfulness practices or focused concentrative activities. So that's a whole other way to cultivate that. So just by cultivating and practicing the attention is one way to help the process of compassion. And then the second one is the affective domain. So that is being aware of our emotions and we have a lot of research that shows the more aware we are of our emotions, the more aware we can be of others. Shelly Prosko:               12:52                And then we also have research that shows some interoceptive awareness practices, believe it or not because of the way something with the insular cortex, you know, we don't know if it's that more information is being sent to the insular cortex or it's just changing the way the brain is interpreting this. But when we do enter in an interoceptive awareness practices, it seems that that increases our ability to be more in touch with our own emotions, which is super cool. So an Interoceptive awareness practice might be like a body scan. So you're taking yourself, we're guiding a patient through, you know, a two minute, you know, scan of the body and inside and what are inside physiological state is like, it could be even, you know, a breath awareness practice. Shelly Prosko:               13:47                And just knowing how that feels inside the body. And then the third element is intention. So in yoga, that of course, you know, that's my framework, how I frame a lot of things. But in yoga, there's a saying, you know, where your intention goes, the energy follows. So, from a science perspective, when you can actually focus and concentrate on something that you really put, have an attention to it that can affect the outcome. So for example, the intention when you're working with someone might be first and foremost my intention is to care for myself first. Secondly, to then care for the person in front of me. And then you may just want to keep that in mind throughout the whole session. And your intention may be something really specific. Like, I am here to serve, you know, when you sort of keep repeating that to yourself, I'm here to serve, I'm here to serve and my intention setting can be super powerful. Shelly Prosko:               14:54                I don't know if you've done any intention setting before, but you just set an intention. It doesn't even have to be related to our professional career here. Just even personally, you go into a room or a setting where you're feeling like you don't really want to be there, et cetera. Maybe a family Christmas dinner. And if you go in with this intention, okay, I'm just going to focus on, and you could say anything, I just want to be present or I'm just gonna focus on being kind to myself. And you just focused on that one intention. It's like a theme. So that's the third element. So remember, all of these are now together. They start to accumulate into gaining more insight into the person's suffering in front of you, which then can lead us to have a more compassionate response. Shelly Prosko:               15:40                Then the fourth element is insight. And that's basically just the idea that these first three components together and practice can lead to that deeper insight into what that person is, you know, is really going through. And then the other part to that insight, I just want to add, cause I think it's so fascinating once we start gaining deeper insight into all this stuff, we do start to understand that there's something called therapeutic humility, which is this idea that, you know, we can't control the outcome. So we do the best that we can. We gain as much information as we can. We be the best people we can be and we help the person as much as we can. And then we detach from outcome and we can pay lip service to that and we can all understand that. But when it comes down to it, I think a lot of us are attached. Shelly Prosko:               16:38                And we're invested in making sure that the outcome is a certain way. So we could talk about that for a long time. But this is huge in part of the compassionate response is this idea to have this insight that we have to have this humility that we're not the almighty savior and we can't control. And then the last two are embodied and engaged. And so the embodied domain is really this idea that we are fully, fully present. So kind of similar to the first one, but this one is more that we are dividing our attention. Meaning we yes, we have to listen fully and be fully present for the person in front of us. But we also have to stay within our body and not detach from what we're experiencing and disassociate. So we have this idea that we can still feel if our breath is tightening or if there's tension in our body and that can give us a lot of information as well. Shelly Prosko:               17:37                That's really important. So that's part of the compassionate process. And then the last one, the engaged domain that's really compassion in action. So that's your compassionate. And I think for here, this one, I think the biggest take home message for me has been, it's obviously informed by everything I just said. And it's different depending on the context. So there's no, well there's no GoTo, this is the strategy or this is my response or this is what I say, you know, when my friend is struggling and where someone's giving you some bad news and there's no really go to response, you can have some ideas of course, and then some things maybe that aren't, we want to stay away from saying, but it's really important to understand that compassion is this wisdom that emerges in that situation and the engaged part might be not saying anything or not doing anything. It could be just holding space. And so I hope that helps you and the listeners sort of get a deeper appreciation for this process and that we can train it and that it takes time and it can be extremely helpful for both the person in pain. Karen Litzy:                   19:01                Yeah, I think that's great. And thank you so much for going into a little more detail there on that model. I think it makes it a little more concrete for myself and certainly hopefully for the listeners as well. And now I think something that people may misunderstand or misconstrue is the idea of compassion and empathy as being the same. So my question is there a difference between compassion and empathy? And if so, can you kind of give us the similarities or differences there? Shelly Prosko:               19:39                Yeah. So just like compassion, empathy does not have one agreed upon definition either. So this makes it challenging to talk about this stuff because you know, people have different ideas as to what these things are. So some, you know, of what I've read about empathy, it depends if we're talking about cognitive empathy or emotional empathy, behavioral empathy. So that makes it a bit tricky. But I'm going to stick with the empathy that I find most people resonate with and that is more that the empathy where it's our capacity to be able to share the feelings of another person. So what it's like to be in the other person's shoes, right? To resonate with their experience, even to share that emotional experience. So if we use that definition, then we know we can see that empathy is really more of a competency. Shelly Prosko:               20:43                It can be a motivating force for compassion. But what the literature shows is that empathy is neither sufficient nor required for compassion. And you think about that for a moment. It makes sense because we can have empathy for someone. So we may emote, be able to, you know, really understand and emotionally share that same experience or share that same feeling because we've had a similar experience. The response may not necessarily be a compassionate one and there's lots of different reasons as to why we would or wouldn't. I go into a little bit of that in the book, but just I think, I hope that makes sense to everybody. How you could still have this empathy but maybe not provide of a very compassionate response. The other part of that is you don't necessarily have to even have empathy in order to provide a compassionate response. And I think that's actually quite hopeful. And you know, cause I think even talking to some of my colleagues who some people may feel that they're not as empathetic or they've been told that they don't have, what you don't understand. Shelly Prosko:               22:05                And, you know, the good news is you may not be really empathetic or you may not consider yourself an empath, but you can still have a compassionate response. And I think if you go back to the Halifax model of all of those elements, you know, that help us provide a compassionate response. Empathy can be part of that. Like you say, it can be a motivating factor, but not, no, not the only factor in it. Certainly, it could still be lacking. You could still be compassionate. Karen Litzy:                   22:40                That is hopeful for people who may be feel like they're not as empathic as they would like to be. But like you said, that Halifax model is this sort of emergent model by having all of these different inputs go into the system and have, you know, an emergence of compassion from you. So it's not like all of those parts need to be equal. Shelly Prosko:               23:03                Right? And empathy. Like I said, empathy can be good. Of course. You know, just think of a time when you shared someone's experience feeling, you know, or their experience. You've had a similar experience that may help us give us an idea. But we also have to, I think this is interesting too. We also have to look at the fact that sometimes if we have empathy and we can really share that feeling if we're not careful and if we're not in this more clear kind of state. We may actually start to look at our experience and what we went through and put on someone else, like almost feeling that, well, this is how I felt. So they must feel that too. And there's something that Paul bloom, he's a psychologist at Yale, he calls it empathy arrogance or the arrogance of empathy. Shelly Prosko:               23:56                And it's just fascinating. Some of his work and you know, this really made sense to me when he talks about the fact that can we truly, truly have empathy, you know, on that deep level of what it means. Because that means that we want really understand and share 100% with that person is going through. And we can't do that really, if you think about it. And it could be, you know, someone may be that we've had a similar experience, or it could be, think of yourself as a healthcare provider. Look at all the patients we have. I'm coming to see us who are very, very different from us. Different things have happened to them, different socio economic status, people who are maybe vulnerable populations marginalized. And if we're in a position of privilege, how can we truly empathize with some of the issues and the things that they're going through that may affect their esteem? So that's kind of a tangent, but I think why I brought that up. I think it's important is because it's just this idea that we can still be really, really compassionate and we can train for these compassionate responses even if maybe we can't fully empathize. So I think that was the point of me bringing that up. Karen Litzy:                   25:22                Yeah. And I think in my mind, it kind of takes a load off of me as the healthcare provider. You know, that you don't have to have experienced what your patient has experienced in order to provide compassionate care in order to have that therapeutic relationship in order to help that patient in some point of their recovery. So I think it takes a little bit of the pressure off of the healthcare provider, which may in turn help us to be better providers. So we don't have that pressure, like you said, that pressure on us for outcomes because perhaps, you know, you don't want to think, well, because I never experienced it that I can't help this person right now, I'm away or I'm not the right person for you, or something like that. So I think it's an important distinction. And now in the book, in your chapter you sort of have this model of comprehensive, compassionate pain care five sort of points to that. So can you speak about that model of compassionate pain care? Shelly Prosko:               26:42                Yeah, so really just looking at all the different orientations of compassion. So Paul Gilbert, this is based on Paul Gilbert's work, he's another compassion researcher in the UK. And he talks about the orientations which is giving compassion and then obviously we also receive it. And then the third orientation is the self-compassion within us. So the five components that I see when you look at the full comprehensive, compassionate pain care. The first one is of course what we've talked about here, the health care provider providing compassion. And then the second component is the health care practitioner and the person in pain, cultivating or practicing self-compassion. Oh, that's within each of us. And then the third one is also close family and friends, cultivating compassion towards self and others, including the person in pain. And then the fourth is that we want to make sure that the values of the healthcare organization, including its leaders are in line with compassionate care. Shelly Prosko:               27:54                So this includes a commitment to providing and supporting an environment where compassion can be cultivated by both the healthcare provider and the person who, and I think that's, you know, just really important to include in a comprehensive model here because it's not just about the healthcare provider and the person. And then the very last point is just the community at large. You know, I think it's important to have overall public awareness and understanding, you know, surrounding the importance and the health benefits and practices of compassion. And then of course, that includes the person in pain. So that's a little lofty and I don't have a task force or a plan or not this, you know, right now I'm focusing on those first two and I'm doing a lot of different things and this is going to be my life's work, Karen. Shelly Prosko:               28:47                Like I really believe in this stuff. And, I think increasing pain literacy and increasing compassion literacy are two things that, you know, I'm in it for the long run and so how that looks on how we increase pain literacy and compassion literacy in, you know, interest in the general public and in healthcare organizations. I mean, that's a huge topic. But, you know, there are some different things that I've been involved and just with, not necessarily with compassion per se, but just increasing pain that I've seen, you know, our health care community and yoga therapy community. So yeah, to me it's got to be comprehensive like that. Karen Litzy:                   29:42                That's the way you're gonna make, I think a worldwide impact, certainly on those living in pain when we know, at least here in the United States, and I think this is probably can kind of be generalized to other parts of the world. But here in the United States, the burden of care for just low back pain and neck pain is number, I think three or four behind heart disease, like diabetes. So we're talking about pain as being one of the largest burden of care in the United States. And I would argue probably across the world. I don't know that it's that much different or there's that much difference from other parts of the world. I don't know what it's like in Canada, but I mean it's a lot of money. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of resources. It's a lot of relationships. It's a lot of people in pain contributing to that burden, behind those big numbers of trillions of dollars. They're individual people. And so if adding something like compassionate pain care can help make even the tiniest dent in that, then I think it's, I don't think it's a lofty goal. I think it's just a goal. Shelly Prosko:               30:58                Yeah. I'm glad you say that and you put that into perspective, which I appreciate and yeah, and I think that, you know, just overall this compassion what we've been talking about here, like I think it's the foundation of pain care or is this foundation of health care. You know, you can't really argue with that. And, I don't think anybody would argue with that. But what I think we just don't quite understand is that we may have good intentions and we may think that intuitively, yes we are compassionate people, but the research shows that it can be lacking in certain areas of the world and certain regions, healthcare regions. And also there are fears and blocks and resistances to compassion. Like there are actually reasons why we may not offer a compassionate response. And, you know, some of those reasons are the organizational barriers or different social pressures. Shelly Prosko:               32:05                But some of them may also be certain beliefs that we have that compassion may not be the best response for this person. Maybe we have a deep seated belief that the person needs something different. You know, there's a lot to this, but there are different obstacles. And also just our own health. I didn't really talk about this in here, but you know, we might be overwhelmed by stress in our lives or we may have some unmanaged personal distress and we have research that shows we don't need research to tell us this, I don't think, but we do have research that shows when our own physiological state is not regulated. When we're in a state of flight or stress or a sense of anxiety, things like that. Neuro, biologically we are not set to provide a compassionate response. Karen Litzy:                   32:59                Go figure. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. All right, what would you love for the listeners to take away from this discussion and then we'll get into where people can find you in the book and all that other stuff, but, what would be your big takeaway when it comes to compassion and care? Shelly Prosko:               33:25                I think the biggest takeaway that I would like people to understand is that being compassion is not just about being nice or kind or a good person, so that we could still be all those things, but we actually may still be lacking in that compassionate wisdom. So if you can just think of it more than that and that we could, Oh, maybe get a little bit more skilled at developing this compassionate wisdom. And I guess this is more than one takeaway, but that would be the one. And then just knowing that there are these benefits, both the people in pain and also for us as the practitioner for our own health and yes, for burnout and things like that. Karen Litzy:                   34:18                Now where can people find more information about you, what you're doing and where the book is? Shelly Prosko:               34:24                So my website's probably the easiest, kind of the one stop shop. So it's physioyoga.ca like Canada. And you know, if you want to sign up for my newsletter from there, it's on my blog. And then that keeps you up to date. Cause I do online courses, webinars, onsite courses, lots of videos, YouTube, you know, all kinds of different resources and things. So, and then the social media links are all on my website. Karen Litzy:                   34:54                Yeah. And we'll have all of that to up on the podcast under this episode at podcasts.Healthywealthysmart.com so people can one click and get right to you. Shelly Prosko:               35:04                Okay. Yeah. And then the book, the co-editors, you've already mentioned Neil Pierson and then Marlisa Sullivan is the other co-editor. And we do have some other authors who are contributing or who have contributed to the book. And you can find that book. I mean it's just Google yoga and science in pain care, treating the person in pain. It's on Amazon, Barnes, Nobles, you know where books are sold. Karen Litzy:                   35:25                I can say I have not read all the chapters, but I have read several of them and I 100% recommend this for healthcare practitioners or not even healthcare practitioners. Really anyone. Because I just find that for me, it's helping me to kind of look inward a little bit more what I'm doing and not doing and what I can improve upon. And a lot of good reminders of pain science and, and things that I can thentalk about with my patients. I think in a way that, that they're understanding and integrating yoga and integrating compassion, integrating breathing and things like that into my treatment. So I'm finding it very helpful from a practice point. Shelly Prosko:               36:22                Exactly. That's great. Yeah. That was our hope. You know, our hope was that healthcare providers, regardless if they wanted to go deep into, you know, the yoga therapy and bring yoga into their practice or not, you know, we wanted this to be helpful for, you know, people who, you know, just might be informed by some of these teachings. And of course informed by the science and in mind with what the contemporary science is telling us around patients. Karen Litzy:                   37:05                Yeah, exactly. And it's also nice because it's not like, it's not super heavy. It's not like you're like, Ooh, boy, like I need five hours to read two pages. You know what I mean? Cause it's written in simple language, which is very nice versus so you're taking all these studies that are very scientific and able to simplify them and distill it down into something that's very easy to read. And I think that's why it sticks. So well done for you guys on that. You can find the book at any bookseller and we will have links to it on our website. And Shelly, thank you so much for coming on. I mean this is great and hopefully it allows people to at least look into compassion training, at least start incorporating this with clients and with your patients. So thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it. Shelly Prosko:               38:02                Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. I'm just so, so, so grateful. Karen Litzy:                   38:06                Yeah. Pleasure, pleasure. And everyone, thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.   Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! 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On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Nicole Stout on the show to discuss cancer rehabilitation and survivorship care.  Dr. Nicole L. Stout is a renowned health care researcher, consultant, educator, and advocate.  She is research assistant professor in the School of Medicine, Department of Hematology/Oncology at West Virginia University Cancer Institute. Dr. Stout is an internationally recognized expert and leader in the field of cancer rehabilitation and survivorship care.   In this episode, we discuss: -Functional morbidity in cancer survivors and the role of rehabilitation -Evidence for rehabilitation and exercise interventions to support individuals with cancer -Physical therapy clinical, research and education needs to develop survivorship care models -Why every clinician should be familiar with survivorship care -And so much more!   Resources: Nicole Stout Twitter Nicole Stout LinkedIn Academy of Oncologic Physical Therapy  2nd International Conference on Physical Therapy in Oncology (ICPTO) American Congress of Rehabilitation Medicine American Cancer Society Nicole Stout Research Gate    Email: nicole.stout@hsc.wvu.edu   For more information on Nicole: Nicole L. Stout DPT, CLT-LANA, FAPTA Dr. Nicole L. Stout is a renowned health care researcher, consultant, educator, and advocate.  She is research assistant professor in the School of Medicine, Department of Hematology/Oncology at West Virginia University Cancer Institute.    Dr. Stout is an internationally recognized expert and leader in the field of cancer rehabilitation and survivorship care. She has given over 300 lectures nationally and internationally, authored and co-authored over 60 peer-review and invited publications, several book chapters, and is the co-author of the book 100 Questions and Answers about Lymphedema. Her research publications have been foundational in developing the Prospective Surveillance Model for cancer rehabilitation.   Dr. Stout is the recipient of numerous research and publication awards. She has received service awards from the National Institutes of Health Clinical Center, the Navy Surgeon General, and the Oncology Section of the American Physical Therapy Association. She is a Fellow of the American Physical Therapy Association and was recently awarded the 2020 John H. P. Maley Lecture for the American Physical Therapy Association.   She holds appointments on the American Congress of Rehabilitation Medicine’s Cancer Rehabilitation Research and Outcomes Taskforce, the WHO Technical Workgroup for the development of Cancer Rehabilitation guidelines, the American College of Sports Medicine President’s Taskforce on Exercise Oncology, and also chairs the Oncology Specialty Council of the American Board of Physical Therapy Specialties. She is a federal appointee and co-chair of the Veterans Administration Musculoskeletal Rehabilitation Research and Development Service Merit Review Board. Dr. Stout is a past member of the American Physical Therapy Association Board of Directors.   Dr. Stout received her Bachelor of Science degree from Slippery Rock University of Pennsylvania in 1994, a Master of Physical Therapy degree from Chatham University in 1998 and a clinical Doctorate in Physical Therapy from Massachusetts General Hospital Institute of Health Professions in 2013. She has a post graduate certificate in Health Policy from the George Washington University School of Public Health.   Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy:                   00:01                Hey Dr. Nicole Stout, welcome to the podcast. I am so excited to have you on today. So today we're going to be talking about for all the listeners, cancer, survivorship and morbidity burden among growing populations, probably around the world, certainly in the United States. But Nicole, before we even get to all of those sort of big topics, can you define for the listeners what cancer survivorship is? Nicole Stout:                                         Yeah, thanks Karen. That's a great question to start off with. And it's a little bit of a Pandora's box right now. So we've historically defined cancer survivors as anyone from the point of their cancer diagnosis, really through the remaining lifespan that that individual has. So we consider a survivor from point of diagnosis and you know, it's sort of different or it's kind of different than what the word expresses. Nicole Stout:                 01:06                The word survivor, I think in some kind of patient means they're done with treatment, they've survived. And you know, we've seen a bit of pushback in the last few years around people who don't necessarily identify with the word survivor. So if we go back to 2006, there was a very important report that the Institute of medicine released called lost in transition from cancer patient to survivor. And this is where the term came from. Basically that IM report was critical because it said, Hey, medical community, you're doing a great job of treating cancer, that disease, but you're doing a terrible job of helping these people transition back to their life when they're done with treatment. They have a lot of functional morbidities, physical, cognitive, sexual, not managing those things. So this term survivorship was put forward. The idea of managing people to become survivors was put forward. Nicole Stout:                 02:05                And what's been very exciting is to see the evolution of emphasis and focus on better managing the human being that goes through the disease treatment in addition to managing the disease. But we've come so far with treatments and in some regard, some people who have advanced cancers for example, will be on cancer treatments for the rest of their life. And you know, I participate in a lot of social media groups and I hear these people say, I'm not a survivor and I'm never going to be one. Eventually I'm going to die from my cancer. I know that. And it's a matter of time. And so they don't identify with the word survivor or survivorship. So, you know, we're sort of moving away from that a bit and we're talking for now without individuals who are living with and beyond cancer. And I like to use that terminology. Even though survivorship is prevalent in the literature and prevalent in, you know, our conversations and in oncology circles is how we describe it. But I think we're trying to be more sensitive to the much, much broader population of individuals who are going through cancer treatments today. Karen Litzy:                   03:19                Yeah. And I liked that phrase, living with and beyond cancer, it seems a little more inclusive to me. Is that why you prefer that phrase? Nicole Stout:                 03:29                I do. I think that encompasses anyone who ever had a cancer type know who is in treatment, who is a, what we call an ed has completed treatment and has no evidence of disease. And it's also those individuals who may be in palliative care, who are progressing towards end of life, who are still being treated or managed in various ways. So I think it is more encompassing and reflective really of the broad, broad scope of this population. Karen Litzy:                   04:04                Yes. Because I think oftentimes, and myself included, people think you either have cancer or you don't. After you've gone through treatment, you don't have it in you're a survivor. So you forget about that population of people, like you said, who have cancers that they'll be in treatment for the rest of their lives. Nicole Stout:                 04:26                Yeah. And that that is actually a growing population with more sophisticated treatment technologies and changes that we've seen around the immunological therapies, the hormonal therapy treatments. Many of these targeted agents as we've come to so call them. And we are seeing individuals live much, much longer with disease, with stable disease, we're able to stabilize it. And so therefore what they would have died from in six months or a year, they're now surviving. I have years on continued temporization treatments. And so how would we describe those individuals? And yeah, let me make sure that the supportive care needs of those people are met and identified and met. It is a very broad population. So I think sometimes we say survivorship and it is not nearly as homogenous as, you know, that group of you either have cancer or you don't. You've been treated and you're finished. Now some people, for some folks that is the case. But for many, there's this very gray area that is the remainder of them. Karen Litzy:                   05:39                Yeah. And I think saying living with cancer treatment or living through cancer treatment and beyond is just a little more sensitive to the person. Like you said, the person behind the cancer. Because oftentimes when you read articles or even whether it's in a scientific journal or mainstream media and you think about cancer, they are always talking in percentages and numbers but not in the person. And so this kind of brings it down to the personal level. Now you mentioned it a couple of times, as we were talking here about different morbidities related to cancer or cancer treatment. So can you talk a little bit about what people undergoing treatments or maybe have completed their treatments might be experiencing? Nicole Stout:                 06:37                Yeah, that's a huge topic. We could spend hours just talking about that. But first of all, just in general, when we say morbidity, we're talking about the complications and the side effects that impact an individual's ability to function. So we're talking about functional morbidity. And the good news, the good news is this. The good news is we have a growing population of individuals who are living with and far beyond their cancer diagnosis. We talk about the population of cancer survivors growing. And you know, we look back to like the 1970s, all types of cancers. We were looking at about somewhere between a 40 and 50% survival rate to five years. So we have, and today we have dramatically driven that number much, much higher when we look across all cancers. That number today is around 70%. But when you drill into some of the more commonly diagnosed cancers like breast and prostate, those survival numbers to five years or even higher, upwards of 90% plus. Nicole Stout:                 07:47                So the good news is more people are being treated and getting to that side of your Mark of survival with no evidence of disease. And that tells us a story that they're more likely to live the rest of their lifespan, but they are living with significant functional morbidity. And so the side effects of cancer treatments are things that we absolutely anticipate. We know that when people go through different types of chemotherapies or mental therapies, radiation therapy, you named the therapy, they are going to be side effects that negatively impact their function. The issue is how severe is the impact? How disabling does it become and does it persist? So multisystem impacts from these interventions. Chemotherapy is a multi, it's a systemic approach to managing disease burden. And unfortunately chemo is not selective. It doesn't go into your body and say, Hey, here's a cancer cell and there's a cancer cell and it wipes out rapidly dividing cells. Nicole Stout:                 08:54                So is the systemic impact to the body. Your immune system is suppressed, you know, your blood counts drop, you become anemic, you become fatigued. Some chemotherapeutic agents cause cardiac complications and cardiotoxicities some chemotherapeutic agents we know are highly neurotoxic and cause peripheral neuropathies. None of these. And there's a spectrum, right, of the severity of that toxicity that people experience. And so some of those are mild, some of those are more severe. That it is the majority of patients going through treatment will experience at least one or more many experience, more than at least one about 60% experience, at least at one or more functional morbidity. And so when I talk about function, I want to say just sort of as a caveat, I always say I talk about Function with a capital F, meaning that it's not just the physical function. You know, I think in physical therapy we think about movement and mobility and gait and balance and you know, activities. But there's cognitive functioning as well. There's sexual functioning, there's being able to assume your psych. Karen Litzy:                   10:10                Yes. Nicole Stout:                 10:10                Social and psychological functioning and all of that, assuming your roles and your daily life. So we have to think very broadly, but when we talk about the morbidity burden, it's very real associated with cancer treatments in the short term. So while people are going through treatment, we expect to see it. But here's the trick. When treatments are done and withdrawal, people do recover to a very high degree. They regain their strength and mobility. But many of them suffer with persistent morbidity. And that disables many from going back to work or resuming their prior roles. And again, those can be across systems. And they can be encompassing of the physical, the cognitive, et cetera. Karen Litzy:                   10:55                And that gives me a lot to think about as a physical therapist. So if I might be seeing a patient too, let's say they have completed their chemotherapy, radiation, whatever their treatment was a year ago as the physical therapist, it sort of behooves me to ask these questions of them. So even though I may have a patient who's recovering from breast cancer that's coming to see me for knee pain, but these are things that if you are the treating healthcare provider, you have to have in your head and kind of ask these questions of them, of those different systems. Right? Nicole Stout:                 11:41                Absolutely. And that's actually a great and very critical point to make for physical therapists. And you know, even more broadly, occupational therapist, speech and language, all of our rehab cohort, you know, you said one year after treatment that the thing about cancer treatments, and I refer to them as the gift that keeps on giving because even though an individual finishes treatments, the treatments are oftentimes not done with them. Radiation therapy is a great example. We see individuals have side effects of radiation therapy in the acute timeframe, of course that we can see for example with chest wall radiation and breast cancer, we can see changes to the lung tissue, the bone and the cardiac function even years beyond the completion of treatment in five years, 10 years. So it behooves us to think about the history of cancer but not just did it have a history of cancer and concerned about recurrence of disease with what I'm seeing in my assessment. Nicole Stout:                 12:41                That's one little piece of it. But the bigger question is, is the impairment that I'm seeing in this patient in front of me somehow related to their cancer treatments? Quite possibly, I would say yes. And if it is, are there things that I need to know about cancer and its treatments so that I can optimally manage this patient? And I would say yes to that as well. It's funny because in, I've been a PT for over 20 years now. I've worked in cancer for the majority of that time. Almost 19 of those 20 plus years have been exclusively cancer. And I still today have physical therapists say to me, I don't really see cancer patients in my practice. And my response to them is they see you every day. They see you everyday. Someone who has had a history of breast cancer with radiation therapy to the chest wall on the left side 10 years ago. Nicole Stout:                 13:38                And you're seeing them as they are deconditioned, they may have dyspnea, they're now having some cardiac complications that can absolutely be related to radiation cardiotoxicity. You're seeing someone's three years out from prostate cancer treatment who is now having some balance deficits and issues, has had a fall at home for example, do a close assessment of their sensation, because they probably have residual peripheral neuropathy directly related to their neurotoxic chemotherapeutic agents. So we know that many of these side effects persist and can cause what we call these late effects, which are the downstream side effects that patients will experience. And a lot of it is musculoskeletal, neurological as well. You know, there are changes that can happen with regard to sensation, cognition, memory, those types of things also can persist for, can come on more substantially later after the completion of treatment. Nicole Stout:                 14:43                So there are functional needs someone's going through treatment, but those needs may be, they may be less, they actually may be more in some folks as they age. Because by the way, there's that pesky thing called aging. I'm done with cancer treatments five years, 10 years later. But you know, you've also aged whole cluster of what are the co-morbidities that we're facing that this individual is facing. You know, what type of lifestyle behaviors are they choosing. So really looking at that from that very encompassing perspective and in the short and the long term, not negating that history of cancer, even though it was, you know, five or seven years ago. Karen Litzy:                   15:26                Yeah. And you know, you kind of answered the question I was going to ask and that's as a physical therapist, why should we care? Well, I think you answered that one very well, but let's talk about the evidence for rehabilitation. And exercise interventions for these individuals with cancer. What does the evidence tell us? Nicole Stout:                 15:43                Yeah. And so when you asked why should we care, not just to alleviate their morbidity and to give a good quality of life and better function, but there are big, big issues that these folks face that caused downstream medical and healthcare utilization than escalate costs, pain medications, imaging, additional hospitalizations. So we should care from an individual perspective. I want my individual patient to be functioning. We should also care from a system and a societal perspective that we can help to alleviate that burden. So the exercise or the evidence, boy, where do I start? The good news is, as I said, multi-system impact for many of the cancer treatment interventions. And that's everything from surgery through hormonal treatments, including everything in between. But the goodness is there is evidence to demonstrate the benefits of rehabilitation intervention for nearly any patient with any disease type across the continuum of cancer care. Nicole Stout:                 16:50                From the point of diagnosis through end of life, there's evidence to support our interventions. And you know, I always say that about cancer oncologist everywhere. Cancer does not discriminate based on body region. It does not discriminate based on system impact. It doesn't discriminate based on race, based on gender. Everybody is at risk for having a cancer diagnosis. Now you know, there are some nuances there that level of risks. So we have to be thinking about that evidence very broadly. And so if we start at the beginning, at the point of diagnosis, there are some populations for whom a prehabilitation exercise intervention is highly recommended. We have seen over the last decade, the idea and concept of prehab is, you know, many times we make a diagnosis for a patient with cancer and it is not emergent to treat them. Now some types, it is some types of leukemias. Nicole Stout:                 17:49                We immediately begin treatment like the sun doesn't set, we treat them. But for a number of populations, there's testing, there's workups that are done. There's lab work, there's imaging and that can take several weeks. And so in populations like lung and colorectal, we had started to see these prehabilitation exercise programs put into place and there's a nice body of literature that has grown and has strengthened demonstrating the benefit of therapeutic exercise, aerobic conditioning, moderate intensity supervised over the course of about two to three weeks. What it does is it prepares them to enter, whether it's surgery or chemotherapy. First it prepares them to enter. They are cancer care continuum in a much better physical performance status. Really the exciting thing in lung cancer with the pre habilitation exercise that we've seen some evidence, the lung cancer population in general, many of them are not in good physical performance status when they're diagnosed. Nicole Stout:                 18:52                And some of them by virtue of that are not candidates for surgery. They're not candidates for the ideal regimen of chemotherapy because of their performance status. And we're starting to see evidence that that prehabilitation exercise intervention can actually convert someone for being a non surgical candidate to the surgical candidate. And that is, that's where we need to really be looking longer term and saying, does the rehab intervention improve survival in that population? The question is not, you know, something that we haven't answered yet but not far from being plausible. So that's evidence sort of from the point of diagnosis. We also have a large body of evidence around that post usually surgery is the first stop for some, for most folks and that perioperative time period. And it just makes sense. You know, the PT, the rehab consults, for especially our head and neck population, we talk about oropharyngeal, laryngeal parasite as we sort of put those into the head and neck population. Nicole Stout:                 19:56                Immediate referral for speech and language pathology should be done in that patient population. Immediate referral for PT or OT console for upper quadrant for cervical mobility, first those things should be standards that should become standards of care. The evidence is building in that regard. And then as patients move through treatment, the chemotherapy, radiation therapy, sometimes chemo, radiotherapy combined, is sometimes the next stop. And around that time period the exercise literature supports intervention during chemotherapy, the conditioning to help to mitigate fatigue, moderate intensity, low intensity exercise for individuals to alleviate distress, anxiety, depression. So exercise prescription is something that we're really starting to see more focused on. The American college of sports medicine just released new guidelines last week, providing some very specific evidence around exercise prescription. So we're getting to the point where we can actually prescribe exercise for targeted impairments that individuals are experiencing during cancer treatments. Nicole Stout:                 21:17                There's strong evidence around fatigue management exercise.  To moderate and low intensity for fatigue management. There's strong evidence around lymphedema using exercise to help for women who have, especially in the breast cancer population. There's strong evidence also around using weight bearing exercise to mitigate bone density loss that happens with many of the hormonal agents. So I know I'm sort of picking and choosing out of the air here, but in general, what do people experience when they go through cancer treatments? Debilitating fatigue is probably one of the most prevalent impairments across all cancer types. There's also so deconditioning that comes along with that and you know, that's a starting place for exercise interventions and you know, half the battle I feel with the rehabilitation intervention. And I feel like my role sometimes as the PT on the team, half of the battle is engaging the patient repeatedly in a conversation about enabling them because as they go through treatment, they feel terrible. Nicole Stout:                 22:30                You're sick. They're fragile, they're medically complex, right? Their blood counts drop, okay, let's maybe low. So there's risks and you know, it's sort of like the docs will say things like, well, you know, I guess you can exercise but don't overdo it. And that's almost worse than saying don't exercise. And so sometimes it's just, you know, our role in rehab is so critical during that time period of treatment to see them in a repeated fashion. And by that I don't mean, you know, two, two times a week for the duration of their cancer treatment. But you know, maybe it's a monthly basis, maybe it's every other month, maybe it's every three months as they're going through treatment for those check-ins. Re-assessing how their function has changed. Giving them guidance and support and enabling them. Karen Litzy:                   23:23                Yeah. And it reminds me of some of the work that I do with patients who have chronic pain is that it's not like you said, two times a week for six weeks. It's checking in, it's helping to build their self efficacy so that they can do yeah. And they can do more for themselves. Nicole Stout:                 23:47                And within their own bodies and giving them permission to do it. Cause like you just said, well you can work out but not too hard. Well like, yeah, that saying, well that's confusing and sometimes our patients need permission to feel more confident with their bodies. I had a patient say something to me once and I will never forget it and I use it in all of my talks and it's always sort of at the core in my mind. And she said to me, you know, the medical oncologists, they may have saved my life that you gave me my life back and if I'm going to survive cancer, what is it worth if I can't have my life back, at least to some degree to do things that I love to do. That just really hits at the heart of why rehabilitation is so critical for these individuals. Nicole Stout:                 24:39                Because yeah, that treatments that we have now, I mean, we're detecting cancers earlier. The treatments are so much more sophisticated. Many people will go on and live their full lifespan and die from something else and however, it's not good enough anymore for us to say. He said, I have cancer. You should be happy to be alive. You know, even if you're suffering with pain or lymphedema or conflict fatigue or neuropathies and, or cognitive dysfunctions and you're frustrated because you can't think straight and you don't have good short term memory. It's not good enough for us to say you should just live with those things and be happy to be alive. Not when we have the evidence like we do around rehabilitation interventions. And I mean, I could go on about the evidence. We could get into specific impairments, pelvic floor, for example, returning people to continent. Nicole Stout:                 25:32                Again, that's a place where prehab and then following them through the continuum of care. Makes sense. And you know, we in PT and in rehab has to get out of this episodic care mindset when we're working with patients who have cancer. So that's really where we went and we develop the prospective surveillance model. Way back in the early two thousands when I went to work at the Naval hospital in Charleston, Garvey and Cindy falls there, had developed this protocol for a research study and I went in and this prospective surveillance model said, Hey, we know people going through cancer treatment are gonna experience just awful side effects that are going to negatively impact their function. And if we know that ahead of time, why aren't we using rehab prospectively to help to identify the changes, manage them early when they're less intense and can be managed more conservatively. Nicole Stout:                 26:28                So we ran those studies over the course of the next 10 years and published extensively on this concept of prospective surveillance, which is start with rehab at the point of diagnosis, assess function at baseline, know what's normal, follow that patient then at punctuated intervals, throughout treatment, one month after they start treatment, they're going to have had surgery or they're going to have started treatment. They're going to start to decline. See them at that one month period, reassess baseline and identify clinically meaningful change. Everything might look great and then you say, good, I'll see you in three months. And then we follow them on an every three month basis after that for the first year, every six months, then up to two years and you're only out to buy. And what we found was that I do think that we indeed identified impairments early because for most people it's not if they occur, it's when, when is it going to happen? Nicole Stout:                 27:23                So we're able to identify them early. We can treat them much more conservatively when the impairment is less severe rather than waiting for severe, debilitating fatigue or a big fat swollen leg, and trying to fix or rehabilitate, right? We have to be much more proactive and we have the tools to be able to do that. We have the clinical measurement tools, we have the problem solving skills as rehab providers. What we have got to change is our perspective on an episode of care. This really is a more consultative role for rehabilitation and I think that's great. I think it's a great place for us to think about moving to as a profession. Consultation in that, like you said, sometimes you just see the patient, we tweak a little bit on their program and you coached them a little bit and talk about some of the behaviors they want to move towards and talk about. You're going to get there and you enable need and then I'll see you in three months. But sooner if anything goes wrong, you know? Karen Litzy:                   28:21                And now this brings up to me an interesting question for you. So this, you said back in the early two thousands, this work was done on this, prospective surveillance. So now it is 2019 so you know where I'm going with this, right? So, as rehabilitation professionals, where are we? Are we doing this? Has this been put into mainstream practice? And if not, what do we need to do as the rehabilitation professions? Nicole Stout:                 29:00                Yeah. So my heart is really as a researcher and it takes time. It takes time to do good studies. So that protocol kicked off in 2000. We didn't publish really our first remarkable studies until 2008 so it took us that eight years to enroll enough patients, analyze the data, come up with a full data set. You know, we completed our enrollment, we had the full data set. So in 2008 we published the first article from that prospective surveillance trial and then we published many, many more that the first was lymphedema, we published on shoulder morbidity, we published on fatigue and it was sort of this cascade after that, you know, once we had the data collected. So I'll start by saying it takes a long time to do good quality research. So really I sort of start the clock around 2008 and we've all heard the adage it takes 17 years for something to go from, you know, the research being published to actually implementing it in practice. Nicole Stout:                 30:08                So I looked around at my research, okay, I'm out waiting 17 years. How did the escalate the timeline to get this into practice? And, I encourage individuals who do publish, to think about how you advocate for your research. And so where are we right now as a profession? Well for the first few years it was challenging to get people around their head around this concept of prospective surveillance. We had some uptake in some larger cancer centers who said, this makes sense, let's implement and put a physical therapist in the cancer center, which I think is an ideal situation. It's hard to do though because again, in hospital systems we're in our cost centers and you know, the rehabilitation department, you have to have her referral to PT. I mean, we've got to find ways to overcome all of those barriers. Nicole Stout:                 31:03                So, I would say one moment that was a real catapult for us was in 2010, the American cancer society had identified the evidence around prospective surveillance and they said, do you think that this is ready for sort of an expert review panel? And I said, hell yeah. And so I got to work collaboratively with them and some other colleagues in putting together an expert consensus panel on prospective surveillance. We ended up after a two day symposium look, did the research, worked in groups and teams for about another year and publish 16 articles that came out in a supplement to cancer in 2012. And that I feel like was a bit more of a pivotal moment for us. You know, these research studies were great, but to pull all of that together with a group of experts in a consensus forum and say, this is a model that we need to think about for cancer patients because if we start at the beginning, not just with physical function, but if we start at the beginning with things like assessing someone's cognition, assessing their family status, assessing their financial status, assessing their nutrition status, and we follow them prospectively, all of those things are going to take a negative hit at some point during cancer treatments. Nicole Stout:                 32:21                So I think prospective surveillance lends itself to a much larger cancer supportive care model, which is how I have been describing it. And it is my intent to really focus on how we can study that model and look at better avenues for implementation in this new position that I'm in now at West Virginia university. This is my goal, which is amazing. Now how, so, you know, if we look toward the future and hopefully what you will be able to achieve in your colleagues across the medical spectrum, what are there policies that need to change that will impact the future of cancer survivorship or the future of living with cancer and beyond? Yeah, so the good news to that is there are a lot of things we can impact because we've laid this foundation of the evidence. We have laid this foundation of expert consensus and there's been a lot between that 2012 and today, more and more providers in rehabilitation services are becoming aware and engaging in cancer. Nicole Stout:                 33:36                You know, it's not something we prevalently teach in our curriculum in PT school. Think about how you learned about cancer. You learned about cancer in the negative. You learned all of the contraindications to your modalities and exercise and cancer was always one of them, right? You would say in your practical, okay, ultrasound, great, don't do it over the eyes. Don't do it on a pregnant uterus and cancer. So we find it in the negative for so many years. We have generations of therapists out there who love cancer and negative that never learned about the interventions to help to impact improve someone's function going through cancer treatment. So we're seeing that change and it's changing in how do we know it's changing? Individuals are engaging in cancer rehabilitation networks. We're seeing far more publications. We've published on this. A couple of years ago we did a billion metric analysis of the cancer rehabilitation literature and we've seen this tremendous upswing in the evidence base and an increase in volume. Nicole Stout:                 34:39                We're also seeing more therapists move towards specialty practice and evidence of that is what we have seen culminate in the last year with the first ever deployment of the oncology board specialty certification exam. We had 68 people pass the first exam. So we now have a growing conduct contingency and it will continue to go of therapists who are oncologic clinical specialists, which is fantastic. So we are positioning ourselves, we are moving forward. But when you ask where do we go in the future, I really think of three things. Number one is impacting policy, like you said, second is impacting education. And third really is impacting research. And so I think where do we need to move to in the future? We're starting to see the clinical practitioners really grow. We're starting to see residency programs develop. So from that perspective of the clinical focus, there's evidence, there are pathways that's developing. Nicole Stout:                 35:41                We have to start thinking about how do we embed this better into our curriculum. And this was last January in PTJ, the January issue of physical therapy journal. I coauthored a commentary article with Dr Laura Gillcrest, Dr Caringness and Dr Julie silver and Dr Catherine Alfano. We were all putting forward commentary on a recent national Academy of science, engineering and medicine report about longterm survivorship for cancer. And basically that report said rehabilitation should be utilized throughout the continuum of care, cancer care in order to contribute to that are longterm outcomes. And if that not doing so, not including rehabilitation during cancer treatment is almost negligence based on the breadth and depth of the literature that we have. So that was a pretty strong statement in that workshop document. So those are the types of things. Recommendations from the national academies will help us change policies. Nicole Stout:                 36:48                And by policies, I mean, you know, it's not just how do we get paid for what we do, but also policies around, standards, policies that our accreditation bodies use to designate cancer centers. In fact we are seeing, I think they were just released today, the commission on cancer, which accredits probably 95%, I think it is, of cancer centers around the country. So they're a big gorilla, their standards for an accredited comprehensive cancer center and include a standard for rehabilitation care services. It used to just be a criteria that you had to have a referral source to rehabilitation. But in 2020, the new standards that will come out from the commission on cancer actually has a rehabilitation care service standard. So it's been elevated. That's going to be critical for us because it will require your cancer committee in your hospital to identify policies and procedures for rehabilitation practices in oncology. Nicole Stout:                 37:56                So, you know, this is a place where we've got to start to see uptake in from our rehabilitation directors or administrators in large healthcare systems. The PTA, you know, we were really gonna need to see them start to put forward recommendations. How do we do this to practice? What is the best practice? What are some tools and tool kits that we can rule out. So those things, those policy changes are drivers for us. The education piece, I've spoken to a bit, I think embedding more education into curriculum for the entry level PT. And I think it's critical. You know, we get so bogged down in, well, you know, the capte requirements are, but they are in our curriculum's already too tight and it's a bit of a red herring argument because I see places around the country who have champions for oncology rehab who has put it into the curriculum. Nicole Stout:                 38:51                It just takes someone to understand what is the best practice look like for an educational model and how do we implement it. So places like Oakland university in Michigan, Emory in Atlanta is working right now on elective modules. So there are some real novel ways that these are being incorporated into PT curriculum. And the third area that I think of for the future is research. And you know, as I said, wow, we've seen an explosion in research in the last decade. It's phenomenal. A greater volume. A lot of that has focused on intervention. It's been within some very specific populations like breast and prostate. There is a lot of breast and prostate, understandably. But we need to look at going beyond. We really should be thinking about how do we look at populations with regard to our rehab interventions of cohort studies, large population studies, and we've got to start thinking a little bit beyond end points. Nicole Stout:                 39:54                Like function, function is important, don't get me wrong, it's the core of what we do. But if we improve function through rehab intervention, does it change the downstream utilization of healthcare services? Does it mitigate costs? Do we see them spend less time in the hospital? Did they have less than, do they adhere to their chemotherapy better? Do they have less severe toxicities? Do they have better overall survival? So they've got to think about some different end points and take a bit of a health services research approach. I think in oncology rehabilitation going forward. That's what I would love to see as the future and really at the core, the change in clinical practice so that we are a proactive consultative risk stratifying, triaging, screening, and proactively assessing profession when it comes to dealing with oncology. Karen Litzy:                   40:52                Yeah. And, and you really teed it up for me to ask you this last question here. My question is what advice would you give to your everyday clinician working, whether that be an inpatient or outpatient to allow them to begin to think differently about cancer? Nicole Stout:                 41:19                And that's critical because the fact of the matter is we look at places like Johns Hopkins and university of Penn and MD Anderson and those are like the preeminent cancer centers in the country. The truth of the matter is the majority of people get treated for cancer and community hospitals right down the street from where you live and in outpatient, freestanding oncology clinics. So the likelihood that you're going to see them is very high. So it is important for, as I said, the general therapist. It's also important for specialty practice therapists to improve their knowledge base in cancer. So how do you do that? There are some great resources. I'm always going to point to the APTA oncologic Academy for physical therapy. We're now an Academy. We used to be the section, I still call it the section. Nicole Stout:                 42:13                But we have an Academy for oncologic physical therapy and there are phenomenal resources there. They do continuing education programs. They provide fact sheets. They often have great evidence base that you can access to understand what are the measurement tools they should be using, what are the questions I should be asking someone. I feel there are also some, you know, continuing education courses focused specifically on the general therapist and I teach one of them. So there's my bias opinion and my disclosure there with great seminars, but I tell people that in the beginning of the course, one of the first things I say is my goal is not to spend two days with you to get you to become an expert in cancer rehab. My goal is to change the way you think about every single patient that you see regardless of the diagnosis, regardless of the setting that you are in. Nicole Stout:                 43:05                If they had a history of cancer, what questions do you need to ask? What might you be seeing in your intake that is indicative of side effects of disease treatment, late effects or even metastatic process. The other flip side of that that we haven't talked about and certainly helped me to delve into is that as primary providers, as frontline providers as we are in rehab, right? The direct access. Now, how many of us ask, about screening, cancer screening? How many of us ask questions? How many of us even know what the screening guidelines are for cervical cancer, for breast cancer, for prostate cancer, new screening guidelines for lung cancer. Again, I think that's a great way for physical therapy professionals to brush up in their knowledge base and to start to have these conversations. I'm not going to be the one to order a low dose CT scan for my patient who's at risk for lung cancer, but I might be the person to plant the seed with them and to incite a behavior change if no one else on their medical team has talked to them about it or if they're hesitant about it. Nicole Stout:                 44:12                Colorectal cancer screening as well. So all of those, we should take responsibility to have those conversations. And that is 100% of the patients that we see to ask those questions. So I think we need to sort of self-assess and say, how can I do this? Knowing that we had, we have 17 million individuals in the United States right now that we call cancer survivors. We are expecting that number to double, double by 20, 40 just because of the growing population, first of all. And because of the escalating rates of survivors, because we're treating the disease so much better. So there are going to be far more of them with the aging population and far more needs for us to meet. So yeah, therapists should be asking themselves, what are the resources out there? There are a lot of places now hospitals, health systems do cancer rehabilitation programs. Nicole Stout:                 45:10                They're doing continuing education courses and they're doing conferences as well. So take a look at some of the, I know Mary free bed, rehabilitation center up in Michigan, Brooks rehabilitation hospital down in Jacksonville, Florida, Marion joy, Northwestern. Many of these rehab hospitals are looking at doing one day, two day symposium open, you know, for folks to attend. So many hospitals as well are doing these cancer rehabilitation one day symposium and NYU is doing one next year, university of Miami. There's also an on pitch this because it's fantastic. And the ICPTO, which is the international conference in oncology, physical therapy, physical therapy oncology. I see PTO, it will be in Copenhagen in may of 2020. That's not a terrible place to go. This is the second that we, the second conference that we've done, the first conference we had over 280 participants from over 25 different countries around, well just physical therapists just in oncology. Nicole Stout:                 46:17                It was just amazing. It gave me tingles to be in that room. And so we're hoping to have an even bigger groups. So those are just, you know, again, sort of a snippet of some resources that I can provide. But looking at each of those, I think you can delve deeper into the resources that they have and have them have available within the APTA within the Academy and within some of those other ACRM is another one. The American Congress for rehab medicine has a cancer networking group and that's a beautiful place to go because it is interdisciplinary PT, OT, speech. You have behavioral psychologists, you have interventionalists, you have lifestyle medicine, desire, interest. It's really great. And they have continuous track of cancer rehabilitation content at their conferences. Unfortunately their conferences in early November. So it's coming up quickly, but every year it's in the fall. Next year it will be in Atlanta. So you know, another great place to look for. How do I start to build my knowledge base in this area? Karen Litzy:                   47:30                Yeah, this is great. Thank you so much for all of those resources and we will put as many of those up in the show notes at podcast.healthywealthysmart.com. Quick question on some of those resources. When you were talking about the different screening tools, can you find those screening tools under the APTA's oncologic PT? Nicole Stout:                 47:50                So if you're talking about the Academy for oncologic physical therapy, the hotly debated title. Yes, there are. So screening tools for identifying functional morbidity. Yes. So the course that was the evidence database to guide effectiveness, the edge test scores for oncology has published over 25 systematic reviews and have looked at measurement tools with by disease type within different measurement domains. So for example, you can find how do I measure functional mobility in colorectal cancer? How do I measure best measure lymph edema in head, neck cancer? So it's broken down by disease type and then domain of measurement. So that's there. It's an annotated bibliography on their website. So they give you a nice little simple compendium. But for the larger screening population screening guidelines, many of those are American cancer society and the us health prevention preventive task force. Those are, you know, large scale guidelines that are developed and put forward for screening for disease. Karen Litzy:                   49:02                Yeah, perfect. Perfect. Well that's great. That is a lot of resources for people. So hopefully any rehab professional listening can, if you have no familiarity with any of this information, would you say where's the first place they should go? Nicole Stout:                 49:21                Well, the first place, that's a great question. And I can help you put some seminal articles up there too. I think there are one and the open access articles. Julie silver wrote a fantastic article in 2013, about impairment driven as a rehabilitation. I feel like it's foundational. It's a great starting place for someone to get their head around all of the stuff involved with cancer treatment and the functional morbidity. And then I think the PTs for PTC oncology Academy is a great place. But also if you're an OT or speechie, you can join the Academy of oncology, PT, you can be an affiliate member, you can get access to our journal and our resources. Karen Litzy:                   50:06                Oh, that's cool. Good to know. That's very good to know. And you know, I think as from what I've got out of this conversation, because I am not embedded in with the oncological Academy but what I am have come to realize through this conversation is that regardless of your setting, you may in your career encounter a patient that has had cancer or is going through cancer treatment and regardless of whether you're in sports, PT, orthopedics, neurological pediatrics, odds are you're going to treat someone at some point with a cancer diagnosis present or past. And to understand the basics of how that might affect overall systems is incredibly important regardless of whether you work at Sloan Kettering full time within specifically cancer population or you are the physical therapist for the New York Knicks, you know, you may encounter this population. Nicole Stout:                 51:32                Yeah, that's really a beautiful summary. Karen, I appreciate the way you articulated that because I like to say oncology is everywhere and that's exactly it. It doesn't matter the setting you're in, it doesn't matter what specialty you practice. It doesn't matter geographically where you live. It does not matter, you know, age, gender, et cetera is, it's there, it is everywhere. Multi-system impact across body systems. So I think that's it. And across the lifespan. So I think it's beautifully summed up with that. You just said that, that's how we think about it. Oncologists everywhere. So every patient that you see there is either the risk of them having a cancer diagnosis in the future. So are you talking about the screening guidelines for the chances they'd had a diagnosis in the past and then asking yourself, is that impacting what I'm seeing here in front of me? There's so much we can spend an hour talking about pediatric oncology right now we're talking about red flags, you know, but look around many of the continuing education consortia around the country, med bridge. You know, many of those have a variety of content or are in process of building content for continuing education always look at the references. CSN is a great place to go to get a ton of oncology resources. Karen Litzy:                   53:00                Got it. And that is coming up in February over Valentine's day weekend in Denver, Colorado. So if you're a physical therapist or not, maybe you just want to go and hang out with 13,000 other PTs. You can go to Denver and you look at the oncology track for CSM. Nicole Stout:                 53:20                Definitely bring your sweetheart, make a ski weekend, I guess with the ecology content. Yep, definitely. Karen Litzy:                   53:32                Excellent. All right, so before we wrap it up, I asked the same question to everyone and that's knowing where you are now in your career, in your life. What advice would you give yourself as a new grad out of PT school? So this is the advice you would give to you. Nicole Stout:                 53:48                The advice I would give to me, it's funny. People would say, if you look back, what would you change? And I always say not a damn thing. I guess my advice to myself is what I hold close to my heart and what I convey to others is go for it. Don't be hesitant to take on something new or different because the new and different is what is going to expose you to a pathway you never would have imagined. I never would have imagined coming out of school that I would be doing oncology work. I was worried about in PT school. I didn't know that this career pathway could exist. I didn't know a clinical research pathway was something that I could even pursue. And as the opportunity came up, if I would've been hesitant, if I wouldn't have been interested in taking the risks, so go for it. Don't be afraid to take a risk. And sometimes that means moving to a different city, that might mean taking a pay cut. You know, a lot of times if we chase the things we love, we're not necessarily chasing the money along with it. I think if we chase a big paying salary, sometimes miss things above, so go for it and be open to try and taking those different pathways. Karen Litzy:                   55:02                Yeah, great advice. And now where can people find you if they have questions or they want to talk about oncology physical therapy? Nicole Stout:                 55:12                Oh, you can find me on Twitter, on social media outlet. I really used to try to engage professionally. So it's @NicoleStoutPT. And you know, you can certainly find me there. My Facebook accounts were private. That's where like family and friends stuff. But definitely access and hit me up on Twitter or LinkedIn yet. Another great place. I post a lot of our research articles there. I'm on LinkedIn, so you can certainly connect with me there. Or just email me and always see how many times you can just cold call or cold email. It's some of the most engaging conversations I'll get on the phone with anyone. I will fly anywhere to talk about kids or rehabilitation and you know, some of the best conversations that started with, Hey, I don't want to bother you, but you have some time to talk and I'm happy, you know, to start a conversation via email. So more than happy to engage. Karen Litzy:                   56:09                Perfect. And Nicole, thank you so much for a really great talk and I think that you have given the listeners a lot to think about and also a lot to look up into research and hopefully spark someone out there to, this might be the path I would like to take. So thank you so much. Nicole Stout:                 56:24                Well, I thank you for the opportunity. I'm just grateful for everything that you've done to put PT on such a stage and I'm really excited to have been a part of that, so thank you. Karen Litzy:                                           Thank you so much. And everyone out there listening, thanks for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.     Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on iTunes!

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Neil Pearson on the show to discuss therapeutic yoga in pain care.  Neil Pearson is a physiotherapist, and Clinical Assistant Professor at the University of British Columbia. He is a yoga teacher, a yoga therapist and creator of the Pain Care Yoga training programs for health professionals and yoga therapists. In this episode, we discuss: -The components of yoga practice that benefit people with persistent pain -Yoga therapy as a pain education agent -The Pancha Maya Kosha Model of yoga and the biopsychosocial model of healthcare -Yoga and Science in Pain Care: Treating the Person in Pain -And so much more! Resources: Pain Care U Twitter Pain Care U Facebook Pain Care U Website Yoga and Science in Pain Care: Treating the Person in Pain   For more information on Neil: Neil Pearson, PT, MSc(RHBS), BA-BPHE, C-IAYT, ERYT500 Neil Pearson is a physiotherapist, and Clinical Assistant Professor at University of British Columbia. He is a yoga teacher, a yoga therapist and creator of the Pain Care Yoga training programs for health professionals and yoga therapists. Neil is founding chair of the Physiotherapy Pain Science Division in Canada, recipient of the Canadian Pain Society's Excellence in Interprofessional Pain Education award, faculty in yoga therapist training programs and an author. Neil develops innovative resources, collaborates in research and serves as a mentor for health professionals and yoga practitioners seeking to enhance their therapeutic expertise. He is co-editor of ‘Yoga and Science in Pain Care: Treating the Person in Pain,’ available Aug 2019.   Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy:                   00:01                Hey Neil, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on to talk about yoga and science in pain care, which is a title of your new book. And we will talk about the book throughout the podcast, but I'm excited to learn more about yoga and how yoga can work with people in pain. So welcome back to the podcast. Neil Pearson:                00:24                Thanks so much Karen. I can't remember how long it's been since we've been here but it’s wonderful to be back. Karen Litzy:                   00:29                Yeah, I think it's been awhile. I don't know either, but I think it's been a long time, but I'm excited today to talk about yoga and how yoga can be an agent for people in pain. So as a lot of the listeners know, I had a long history of chronic neck pain, so this is something that really interests me, but I will kind of pass it along to you. So how does yoga help as a pain education agent? Neil Pearson:                01:00                Okay. So, maybe I'll start at a bit of a different place, but coming to there, so I guess part of my excitement around this, you know, we've got this new textbook out, it's called yoga and science in pain care. And really what it's trying to do is, is teach health care people about yoga and yoga research and how it can help but also some of the research behind that in terms of why it would work. And also it's sort of tried to go the other way as well as to teach yoga people about pain and about the lived experience of pain. So with the textbook, we're trying to hit both sides, right? Because we really see this as being something that needs to be integrated. And I think we sort of hit a really nice time with this because there's such interest in non-pharmacological pain management now. Neil Pearson:                01:54                Everyone’s starting to recognize that the long-term management of pain or the care of people in pain has lots to do with what the individual does for themselves. Not completely as self-help kind of work, but more as what the person does for themselves under the guidance of people like us as physical therapists and under the guidance of people like the yoga therapists. So that sort of, the sort of broader where this is coming from. And then if we look at sort of how it can help, we can start by looking at some of the research and I guess probably in terms of pain management and pain care the simple thing to do to start with when we say we have now have formal analysis and systematic reviews that show that yoga therapy has been shown to be effective. Neil Pearson:                02:45                That helping people to have less pain, to improve both perception of ability but also measured function and also improved quality of life. Those three things really are the three keys that people want. When we have ongoing pain, we want to have less pain, better ease of movement, and better quality of life. And the research is showing positive findings there. And it's showing positive findings in quite a varied group. So, there's a lot of research on low back pain. I mean, that's the one that has the most research. So much so that the, you know, the American medical association now has a yoga as one of the suggested treatments for people who have ongoing low back pain. But it also shows benefits for people who have rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, a whiplash associated disorder and a irritable bowel syndrome as well. Neil Pearson:                03:43                So there's this growing body of evidence saying that when people have these conditions that they can find benefit from them. And of course, like any area of research, we'd have to say, you know, it doesn't say that it's gonna work for everyone. It just says that if you take a lot of people and you give it to them, there will be some benefit with using yogas. The therapy people always want to know, well, is the yoga therapy better than physical therapy or is it better than going to the gym? Is it better for other movement practices? And we don't have that research yet. The effects sizes of some of the research when people are going through using yoga therapy for pain management are higher than the effect sizes of movement on their own and comparable to the effect sizes. You see when you do research looking at cognitive behavioral therapy plus movement therapy for people with chronic pain, which makes a lot of sense because yoga therapy really does cover a lot of the aspects of the person. And so your listeners may be thinking yoga for people with pain. That sounds actually pretty ridiculous because whenever I see pictures of people doing yoga, there's no way that that's what people in pain are going to do, Karen Litzy:                   05:00                Right? Cause they're always in these positions where even if I don't have pain, I think to myself, how in the heck am I supposed to get into that position? Neil Pearson:                05:10                Well, exactly right. And, and it sort of the other question that often sounds ridiculous to the person who has ongoing pain is like, aren't you listening to me? I told you that movement hurts and you're telling me you want me to move as a way to get better. But movement is the problem. And so it's interesting that the practices of yoga can help people to find new ways to move with more ease. But also, the practice of yoga, we need to recognize really are so vast. We're talking about, if we sort of overviewed yoga, yoga is about learning how to relate to yourself in new ways, how to live in a world in new ways. It is about movement with the postures and it is about doing breathing techniques. And then there are awareness techniques which are akin to mindfulness, but they're a little different. Neil Pearson:                06:10                And then there are also within yoga there are meditation techniques as well. So it really covers a broad, broad spectrum of interventions. And if we go to the literature again around chronic pain and chronic pain care, we see that mindfulness techniques and meditation are showing positive benefits. Movement is showing positive benefits. Gaining knowledge is showing positive benefits, acceptance, commitment therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy. All these things show benefit for people with chronic pain. And there are aspects of those all within yoga sort of as this package. And the idea would be that we could, with the person who has ongoing pain, the yoga therapist would be able to do an assessment to see how the pain has changed the person or influenced sort of all the aspects of their existence. And then try to find how we could use different techniques of yoga to help. Neil Pearson:                07:08                So for instance, if a person was, let's take a common example, like the person who has chronic low back pain, but we know that with chronical back pain, often there's anxiety. Often there's grief. Well, there are aspects of yoga that we could use to address the grief or the anxiety. Often when we have ongoing pain, we have the sense of loss of self competence or self efficacy and we could use certain aspects of yoga to address those. Our body tends to get stiff or some muscles, you know, are gripping all the time. And within yoga we can do things to help to release muscles that are gripping or learn how to reengage muscles that seem to be inhibited. And so it's the practice of yoga would be to or yoga therapy would be to go through it and see how this individual is impacted and then see how we could use the different aspects within yoga to put together a plan to address a lot of the changes that are related to ongoing pain. Karen Litzy:                   08:12                Yeah. So I think what you're describing may be a little different than what a lot of, perhaps the listeners are seeing. Meaning yoga is more than just handstands on Instagram and you know, doing these impossible moves and making them look so easy because I think that's what a lot of people associate yoga with. And so what we're talking about here is not just going to a yoga class or not just putting something fun up on Instagram, but the yoga therapist being very intentional in their prescription, the type of yoga therapy they feel this person needs. So it's individualized based on a proper evaluation. Neil Pearson:                09:02                Oh, exactly. Yeah. Although the one difference in yoga therapy is that yoga therapy is not diagnostic, right? So the yoga therapist isn't a trained health care professional. So what the yoga therapist is doing is it's actually applying yoga, getting the person to do different aspects of yoga, like meditation or awareness or breathing or movements. And then seeing how the person is limited in that and then working with them to find a way so that they can do that particular technique to help them to change ease of movement of life pain. Karen Litzy:                   09:40                Got it. Yeah. And there was, you know, something, we spoke about this a little bit before we went on the air, but there was a sentence within the book, the yoga and science and pain care that I had never heard of this saying before. I mean I'm not immersed in the yoga world, but it's the sentence is expanding our view and even altering our perspective to a Pancha Maya Kosha perspective enhances our understanding that pain physiology is studying the person as much as our biology. So can you talk about that for a little bit because I kind of liked that saying so you could expand on that. Neil Pearson:                10:25                Yeah. So there's sort of the two parts of it is that that studying physiology is about starting the person, not just the biology, but then there's also this Pancha Maya Kosha which all start with that within healthcare we talked about the bio-psychosocial or bio-psychosocial spiritual model, which is intended to be an integrated view of the person that everything biological is going to affect everything psychological, it's going to affect everything social is going to affect the person who has spiritual manner and it's all working together as an integrated unit. So within yoga, the philosophy and the view of yoga is that there are different aspects of the individual, so the individual is integrated and whole, but we can look at the individual from different aspects to understand them better. And so I'm this pantry, my kosher view looks at the individual from a physical perspective, from a more energetic perspective, being Pancha is one of the things they're talking about, which really is life force. Neil Pearson:                11:31                And then it really relates a lot to breath as well. But then there's within yoga to SIM Phi, we could say we look at they often call it the lower mind, but it's really getting at the automatic aspects of the human, all that stuff that runs automatically. And then there's above that or you know, I guess above it. There's this other aspect of us that this about us thinking about what we're thinking and it's about us regulating thoughts and emotions and breath and all that stuff. And then the other aspect of us is more the aspect of his that has more to do with spirit and connectedness to the world and everything. And so yoga already looks at the person from that kind of perspective. And with the idea that any change in one aspect of the individual is going to have an effect on the other aspects of the individual. Neil Pearson:                12:25                So if you have a little back pain, it's going to change the way you breathe. It's going to change the automatic functioning of the body. It's going to change the way you think and emote and it will change your connection with yourself, your community. And that then you'll also have as part of its core belief system is that if a person that had low back pain, you could help the person with low back pain by going through any one of those aspects of the person so that you could help the person by affecting the physical body, by working on breath, by working on the automatic system, by working on thoughts and emotions or community that all those, everything interacts. And so that you could, you know, work at it through any of those aspects of your existence. Karen Litzy:                   13:08                Got it. And as someone who has had chronic neck pain for many years, it is very true that the physical pain certainly affects so much else that is happening in your life. It affects your thoughts, it affects your emotions, it affects your relationships, it affects the way you hold your body, the way you relate to your body, the way you see your body. So now I feel like I have a much better idea as to what that sentence means and how yoga can help the individual relate to all of that and kind of put it all together. Cause sometimes when you're in it, you don't see it. Know what I mean? Like you don't see that you're not relating to your body, you don't see that you're moving differently, you don't see that you're breathing differently, you're clenching, you're holding, you just, you don't realize it because it's just the way you are as a result of the pain. Neil Pearson:                14:10                It's so true. And I think one of the key things about what you just said is that the experience of pain often disconnects us from awareness of ourself even so much so that we know now from the science side that sometimes when there's ongoing pain that a person will have a hard time actually feeling the non pain sensations of their physical body. So you know, imagine a person with a low back pain and we asked them to take their attention to the rollback and tell us what they feel there. And typically what a person would do is tell us about their back pain. And then of course I get really sort of funny reaction to people when I say, okay, you told me about your pain. What I want you to do is take your attention back there and tell me the non pain sensations you can feel on your low back. Neil Pearson:                15:02                Which a lot of people, you know, really don't get that. And I say, okay, well you know, just right now take your attention to the feeling of your hands. Your hands are resting. Can you feel your fingers? Can you feel the temperature of your skin in your hands? Can you feel the angle of the knuckles? You probably can feel a whole lot of non pins sensations there and say if you had low back pain, I'd probably say, okay, now take your attention to your upper back, your mid back and notice the non pain sensations. They're just sort of exploring. Scan around. Okay, now what I want you to do is go down to your low back. No, just the pain. Sort of acknowledge it. Now what I'd like you to do is see if you can feel non pain sensations in that same area. Neil Pearson:                15:41                So maybe you need to try to look under the pain or around it or through it. I feel that and it's amazing that some people will say, you know, I really don't experience anything right now except the pain. All I feel there is pain. I can feel my mid back, I can feel my upper back, but my low back, it's pain. That's all there is. And then other people will say, I can sort of feel it, but it feels like it's murky or muddy or hard to feel. And then, you know, we don't often get it with low back pain, but say what was your hand where the pain was? Well often people when they start to do this say, you know, my hand doesn't feel this right shape or size. It feels like it's too big or it feels like it's too small. It feels distorted. Neil Pearson:                16:24                And so it's really interesting is that the practices of yoga specifically get people to take their attention to their physical self to try to reconnect to those sensations. And this is always part of yoga, but in Western science we're finally understanding this. It's really only been in the last five or 10 years where we've paid attention to the distortions of body awareness and body image that are common when pain persists. And, of course this becomes really fascinating to me because the next part is, as a research guy, I get stuck in because I know clinically when a person tells me that, that when I get the person start to work on finding those subtle non pains and sensations of their physical body, that when the person starts to be able to feel those sensations, that there's an associated decrease in their pain. Neil Pearson:                17:20                And then the more the person is able to feel the subtle non-painful sensations of self, the more the pain diminishes. But I can't give you any good scientific explanation for that. You know, we see it clinically, but we can't fully explain it in some sort of, you know, central nervous system or insular cortex or any of those things. We just can't explain it. But to me, that's part of the interesting thing about both the practice of yoga is that it's driven by experience. And yet what the science is now doing is showing is that there's science that says that, you know, the experience of yoga aren't just all in your head. They're actually real measurable changes in the humans biology and physiology. Karen Litzy:                   18:08                Yeah, it's really interesting. And I wonder now you have me wondering, well why do people experience that decrease of pain when they start, you know, looking at the painful areas more than just painful. I mean, are they making changes in the sensory cortex? Is it affecting that idea of smudging that maybe they have a clearer outline of what that body part is now in the brain? And that can lead to changes? I don't know, but it's really an interesting concept. Neil Pearson:                18:45                Well, and the thing about that too is that as we start to study more our sense of our physiological state, we start to realize that body awareness and aspect of it is, or a big aspect of is happening, sort of outside the sensory cortex. It's happening more in the insular cortex. And so I know in the last year I saw one research study that was saying that they couldn't find any smudging and people who had altered body awareness, but they were looking at the sensory motor cortex and didn't look at the insular cortex. And so it's another area as the research goes on, is maybe that smudging is happening in a different place or that alteration of brain activity is happening in a different place than we thought, but certainly the person that is experiencing it and if the person is experiencing it, we hope we can be able to find, you know, the correlate in the brain activity. Neil Pearson:                19:45                Of course our, you know, our sciences far beyond or far behind, the experience that the human has, which really gets back to that other aspect of what you're saying is that that statement is when we study physiology, we hope that by studying physiology and pain physiology, that what we start to do is understand the human more rather than, maybe I'll say it this way often when I go to pain society conferences, there's a lot of biochemistry people there and they're talking about their research and at the end of it, they nearly always say, so what the science says is that here's this target for pain care, for pain intervention. And what they're talking about is that, we could give a chemical to the person to target this thing, this gene or this ion channel or whatever it is to change the person's experience of pain. And of course, my question always when I'm there is, so is there anything that the human could do to change that Karen Litzy:                   20:48                Outside of something pharmacological? Neil Pearson:                20:50                Well, exactly right. And it would make sense if, if we're getting good effects from different treatments. Like yoga therapy that obviously they must be affecting these same biochemical and genetic and epigenetic things within the human. But they're doing them through the person's own, you know, we can say through their own medicine cabinet. Karen Litzy:                   21:13                Right. That medicine cabinet in the brain that David Butler talks about. Neil Pearson:                21:17                Yeah. Yeah. And I think we can expand it into the human right. Because there's a, you know, especially even with the endorphins, cause there seem to be receptors for those all over the body. Karen Litzy:                   21:29                Or even, you know, up and coming research into the microbiome and things like that. I think is also an interesting study in pain and how can we alter our diets or can we alter what we put in our system to change the pain experience? Neil Pearson:                21:55                Oh, absolutely. And I think this, you know, when we get to nutrition, the book actually has a chapter on nutrition. And, one of the things that we find one scan clinically is that some people change their diet a lot and really have very little change in their pain or their quality of life. Other people change their diet even just a small amount and get a massive change. And this, once again is part of the thing that is the complexity of pain care is that, we, you know, as an organism, we are a whole bunch of systems together and sometimes you can change one system a little bit and it really, really changes the organism or the person and others times you change that system a ton and you get very, very little change in the human. And that's one scan, part of the trouble of pain care. But part of the advantage of approaches like yoga therapy is because they're sort of okay with that idea is that everyone's fully individual and we don't have everyone should change their diet this way, or everyone should move their back this way, or everyone should, you know, stand this way or, right, right. It's not a linear model at all. Karen Litzy:                   23:11                Yeah. No, definitely not. And then when you think about pain and you think about it as an experience, and if we're going off of all the different inputs that can be put into the body, that can have impact over one's pain experience, and you think of all the different ways you can alter those inputs, all of a sudden treating the person with persistent pain goes way beyond just movement. Right? It goes into all of those myriad of inputs that you have ability to alter, whether that be as the yoga therapist, a physical therapist, or let's not forget the person experiencing the pain themselves. Neil Pearson:                23:54                Oh, it's so true. Yeah. And with that last comment, you made, the person experiencing pain, the one thing we were really happy that we did within this book was that's her first chapter. So Julietta Belton wrote the first chapter on the lived experience of pain because we wanted to bring it back to, you know, this is why we're doing this work. It's not, you know, it's not that we're all just trying to understand pain. We're trying to help people. But back to movement, one of the things I think is that physical therapists and yoga therapists, anyone who's doing movement therapy, I think one of the really important things that we can do is start to shift our view of movements as though we can use movement for more than helping a person to be flexible, helping the person to be stronger. Neil Pearson:                24:39                And within yoga therapy, we often do this. We'll say, you know, when you're in this yoga posture, it's not just affecting you on the physical level. It's affecting you on every level. And so we can actually use some of the yoga postures to help with other issues related to pain such as, so I was thinking about, so,one when we do a seated forward bend. So maybe if you have back pain, it's really hard to do it, but you still can get in that kind of position where you're sitting on the floor. Legs were straight or bent in front of you and your trying to reach down towards your knees, your shins, your feet, wherever you get to. The metaphor here is of learning how to let go so you can move forward. Neil Pearson:                25:29                And so, we can use a lot of the different yoga postures like that is that we're thinking. So here's a person who is stuck, right? The person is, you know, maybe it's letting go of the need to have a definitive diagnosis because a lot of times that happens and sometimes to be able to, we see the person clinically that, you know, when we're in this multidisciplinary pain management setting, we say, you know, it seems to be this, one of the big things that stuck for this person, they're stuck believing that they need that to be able to move forward. And so we can use movement or postures to try to address other issues like that. Or as maybe another one that makes a little bit more, is more clear. Often we feel a sense of fragility when we have especially low back pain, pelvic pain. Neil Pearson:                26:19                So if we can get you to come into one of the standing warrior postures, when people, the majority of people in a warrior posture, I'm standing with your arms reaching up or out to the sides. There is a sense of strength and stability and connectedness when you do this. And the really nice thing is we could do those postures from a seated position and people still feel that same kind of thing. And so the idea is could we use movement to effect the person on a psycho-emotional level as well? Could we make that out? One of our goals is this person who doesn't feel strong, feels unstable, feels fragile. Could we use movements not just create physical strength, but to address the other changes that are happening to the person? I think so. Karen Litzy:                                           Yeah. I think so too. And I love that yoga has got that part and I hope that other movement practitioners start to think, well, you don't need yoga to do that. Neil Pearson:                27:16                Right? You can use any, you know, think of any movement that we do and how it makes us feel. Could we address it that way. And then the one other thing that movement has tried to address in one of the chapters in the book is the idea of using movements or yoga therapy as an educational agent. So I know your listeners all know about explain pain and that wonderful work there. And what we're doing with explained pain really is it starts with a cognitive behavioral therapy, right? We're changing auditions to change their behavior. And so for a lot of the people that we work with, they may not have learned how to learn by sitting and listening or reading a book. They may have learned how to learn by doing. And so one of the things we're playing around with is the idea of when a person has ongoing pain, could we get the person to move in a way that could sort of, when the person moves that way they feel an increased sense of ease or they get some increased movements. And then you use that change from the movement as the educational agent. Karen Litzy:                   28:21                Saying like, look at what your body can do. Yeah, same thing. Neil Pearson:                28:26                Yeah. Well you can start with, wow, that's awesome. Your pain changed, right? Because that's one of the core messages of explained pain is that right? Changeable. So instead of telling the person that pain is changeable and explaining it to them, if you can get the person to do something and at the end of it, they have less pain or more ease of movement to say, look, it changed. And of course the next step is, and you did it. And so I would then jump into, let's look for all the other things that you could do to actually change this, which is saying to the person your pain is changeable. And you have some influence in it, which is part of what we're trying to do with pain. Karen Litzy:                   29:09                Yup. Yeah. It's like giving them the keys to the car. Neil Pearson:                29:13                Exactly. Karen Litzy:                   29:13                Right. And having them be in the driver's seat versus feeling like they're the passenger and the pain is in the driver's seat. Neil Pearson:                29:24                Oh yeah. That's a really great way of saying it. And I think clinically what we want to do is both with people we, you know, we want to find a way to integrate these things, but I really, really believe that there's a lot of the people we work with would understand pain better if we got them to experience it. Experience what we're trying to tell them. Karen Litzy:                   29:47                Yeah. And we know experiential learning for a lot of people is something that sticks. Neil Pearson:                29:54                Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's the thing is that there were a whole bunch of people that when we explained pain, it changes their cognition, but it immediately they get it, they understand it. It's powerful enough to change their behavior. But then there's other people then some of the research shows this now is that some people have this sort of partial reconceptualization of pain. They understand everything you told them, but they don't apply it to themselves. And so what you're going to need to do at that point is get the person to have the physical experience that matches up with the cognitive experience. And I guess what I'm saying is that what we could do is use the movement practices of yoga or any kind of moving practice for some individuals as the educational agent first and then, I think we need to start to play with that because some people just don't learn well when we talked to them, at least not as well as they do with the physical experience of it. Karen Litzy:                   30:58                Yeah. And I think as the therapist that you can kind of get a sense of this after one or two visits that okay. It seems like they understood, but yet they're not able to apply this to themselves or are they kind of come back to you with the same, I don't want to say the same complaints cause that's not right. But with the same maybe problem solving outlook that they did before when you know, you've kind of spoken about pain and maybe how pain works, let's say from explaining pain and they're still coming back to you with this same idea. The same. I did this so I must have done something wrong. And that's why it hurts because I keep doing this to myself. Neil Pearson:                31:55                Exactly right. There was something in what you said too that made me think that it's possible that that person coming back,  doesn't have the coping strategies that match up with the new information that they learned. So the person's, you know, coped by being saved, being tough and just sucking up and gritting your teeth and pushing through it or coped by fear avoidance. And so we've given them this new information, but the person that hasn't, when the pain worsens, they go back to the coping strategies that don't match up with the new paradigm. Karen Litzy:                   32:29                Right. Yeah. And that was really hard for me to do as well. So what would happen, and I'll give an example of what that means. I think you correct me if I'm wrong, but I used to get a lot of neck pain in my sleep so I'd wake up and kind of feel a pop and then wouldn't be able to move. And what my original coping strategy was hi, I have to call off work today because I need to stay in bed. So I would stay in bed. I used ice, I would use heat but I wouldn't move and that did not do well for me cause like it would help in the short term maybe that day. And then I'd be able to get back into things the next day. But I was still in an awful lot of pain. I mean, maybe I was a nine out of 10 and then I was at seven out of 10 but the seven out of 10 I could function. You know what I mean? Neil Pearson:                33:24                Yeah, absolutely. Karen Litzy:                   33:25                Until I started going through explain pain and moving more. So now if I wake up and I feel that pain, my first thought is not, Oh, I better lay in bed. It's okay, let me get up, let me start stretching, let me start moving, let me go to the gym and at least get on a bike. And now, because that's sort of my new shift in thinking that maybe the pain will last only one or two days and not forever. Because before it was this high level of pain with a higher spike. And now it's just little to no pain with a spike or a flare up, if you will, a couple times a year. But knowing the moment I feel that, that I get my butt to the gym and I realized that movement is the thing that helps and that I shouldn't be fearful of that. So for me, that was the input into my system that helped and everyone is different of course, but I think that's a real life example of what you just said. Neil Pearson:                34:27                Yeah. And I think it's great one because what you've said is that what you've found is that you can change the pain and the ease of movement through movements, but also I think what you're saying as well is there's somehow there's a different relationship with your different perspective on it. You're understanding it in a different way. Karen Litzy:                   34:48                Yeah. It's less as this sort of monstrous threat that's going to take over my life for the next couple of weeks, days, months versus now. It's like a little annoyance that I know I have the coping skills and the mechanisms at my disposal that I can make a change for myself versus going to a doctor for a quick fix of a pain medication or something, which is what I used to do. Neil Pearson:                35:22                Yeah. Well and what I'd say is, well as within yoga and yoga therapy is that a yoga therapy will offer you more on expanding a number of coping strategies or alternatives. We often think of as making people more flexible in their body, but it actually makes us more flexible in how we adapt or modify things when pain persists. So, you know, you wake up in the middle of the night, maybe one of the things is that I'm laying there and actually taking your attention to the pain and exploring the pain. Actually spending some time doing that or the practice of noticing what's happening to your breath. So now or changing your breath or noticing what's happening in your body tension or changing your body tension too. Within yoga there's many, many different ways that you can try to impact things. We often say we want to do practices that have to do with awareness because awareness practices in and of themselves can be a beneficial when we have ongoing pain. Neil Pearson:                36:28                And then there are other practices that are about regulation. So, you know, getting you to breathe in a certain way or hold your body in a certain way or move your body in a certain way or think a certain way. So with the awareness you can have awareness of your breath or your body or your thoughts or your emotions or your energy or the pain. And the same thing with regulation. You can regulate any of those and start to see what happens when you do either of these things. But then the one other bit you said too was about discernment is what you've learned. You've, you know, you've changed your view of you. You're now when you feel the pain, you can discern more about when the pain is like this, I need to do this. And when the pain’s like this, I need to do this. And, I think that's another positive that people can get or the practices of yoga therapy is that you start to actually understand your pain better, right? Be able to discern different aspects of it or different strategies that you need to do at different times where often when we have chronic pain, it's almost like we lose coping, right? Karen Litzy:                   37:37                Oh, there's no question. You lose everything. You lose all perspective on yourself as a human being, you know? I mean, even as someone like me who is, I was a physical therapist when I first had all of this pain and you just completely, everything I learned as a PT flew out my brain. It was gone because all you want is for the pain not to be there. And the reason you want the pain not to be there is because you want to have a life with more choices and more possibilities. Whereas when people are in pain, their choices are you get up, you go to work and you come home. If you can even make it to work, those are your choices. That's all you have. You know, have kids, maybe it's struggled to take care of your kids or suffer through taking care of X, Y, Z. Right? Versus when you don't have pain, your options are, I can get up, I can go to the gym, but I can go to work or I can go to the gym, meet up with friends, go on vacation, you know, clean my apartment, go play sports. So all of a sudden you have a life of very little choice and possibilities to an opening of your choices and possibilities. And it's just because you don't have that pain anymore. Neil Pearson:                38:53                Right. And I think that's one of the beauties of the practices that allow us to start to explore are there things that we actually can do for ourselves to try to change this? Or are there things that people can help guide us to be able to do that? Because I think when we're in that huge pain, what we're looking for is, you know, the thing that will just stop it, of course. And you know, we're living in society where the approach mostly is to look externally. And then one of the troubles that people have sometimes when they start to hear about yoga therapy and sort of the self care part is just this idea that it's almost like it's all up to me, right? You're telling me it's all up to me and what we want to say is no, that that doesn't really work well or we want to do is say, what you need is the expertise of a PT or a yoga therapist or an OT who can help to guide you and be there and you know, cheerlead you and coach you and help you through this. Neil Pearson:                39:53                Because this is really, really hard stuff. You know, learning the techniques of yoga, if people really immerse themselves in it, they'll typically say, this is hard to do. Well, it's way harder to do when you're in pain. Right? Karen Litzy:                   40:09                Right. And you don't want to think like, Oh, I have one more thing I need to do now. I need to do this. I've got all this pain, now I need to do this. Neil Pearson:                40:17                Yeah, yeah, true. Karen Litzy:                   40:19                But yeah, when you position yourself as the guide, you know, I've been reading this book by Donald Miller called the StoryBrand. And in it he talks about the guide who would be, in this case, the yoga therapists and physical therapists and thinking of them as like the Yoda and the student or the hero, he calls them the hero of the story, which would be our patients would be the heroes of our stories are like the Luke Skywalker's. So they're coming to you for guidance, you're helping them, you're giving them the tools, the confidence, in this case, the movement, the education that they need to go out and be the hero of their lives. Karen Litzy:                   41:00                So it's not like, Oh, one more thing I have to do. If we can reframe that for those people in pain, it's more like let us guide you so that you have so much to do. Neil Pearson:                41:13                Absolutely. And you know, there's one other piece that I just want to tack on the end because I'm sure you have some people here listening who have ongoing pain is that one of the really difficult things, and I know some, there's been some blogs talking about this recently that has importance is when we work with an individual who has ongoing pain, actually don't know what the outcome is going to be. I think we can be pretty certain that we can help people to be able to move with more ease and to have some less pain and to, you know, get quality of life. But somehow we need to say to people that, you know, when you do these things, you might be the person who says, you know, the pain is mostly gone and I really can do most of what I could do before. Neil Pearson:                41:56                Or he might be the person who says, well, you know, the pain is better, but it's still there. But what you've been able to do is show me how to get back to allowing my life. You know, the pain is less, but I'd be able to get back. And then there's this other group that will say, you know, it doesn't seem like the pain really is changed at all, but you know, if we've been successful with them, the person will say that, you know, even though the pain is there, you've helped me figure out how to live and have pain. Right. And I think that's one of the struggles that people have when they hear us talking about pain management, is the struggle between you're looking for wanting so much the thing that will stop all the pain. But then not really recognize where maybe recognizing the ideas that for some people that's not the outcome. Karen Litzy:                   42:50                Right. Yeah. And I try and, you know, and that comes, I think as the therapist, I think that comes, that's something that I think experience helps a lot. The experience of the therapist helps a lot because you kind of have a little more confidence to say to the patient, Hey listen, the goal here is to get you doing the things you want to be doing. You may still have pain doing them, but you can do everything you need to do. Would you be okay if you had a small amount of pain and were still able to do everything you want to do? Cause our goal here is not complete elimination of pain or, I mean, yeah, I guess that is the ultimate goal, but being realistic, we have to tell the patient, Hey listen, this may not happen. What if I told you you could do everything you wanted to do and the pain might be there if doesn't really, you're not suffering. It doesn't bother you that much. Would you be okay with that? And that's a hard conversation to have. Neil Pearson:                43:51                Yeah. Well, you know, in the yoga world is it's somewhat easier because anyone who's a yoga therapist has, I mean that's what we've learned. That's really what yoga says is that we will have pain, we will have suffering in life. And the whole practice of yoga and yoga therapy is to actually learn how to live with it and decrease it. But it's not, you know, it doesn't have the goal of saying there's going to be none. Karen Litzy:                   44:21                Yeah. And I think that that's important. It's important to tell patients. And that's the one thing, this is a total rant on my part, so apologize ahead of time. But you know, when you see websites and they're like eliminate your back pain by reading this free resource, well, that drives me bananas and it drives me crazy as a person who did have chronic pain for many years, you're searching for that thing and if someone puts it out there and then you read it and you're like, my pain is the same, I would be like, screw you. It didn't help my pain. It's like a crappy thing to do to someone because I feel like you're praying on very vulnerable people by doing that. And I think that's why. Neil Pearson:                45:08                Yeah, I agree all the way. I mean, it's just not truth. It's a marketing stick. Karen Litzy:                   45:14                Right. Neil Pearson:                45:15                I'm like you, it enrages me. It's hard not to be the police though, right? You want to jump on and say, what are you saying then? And we know that, you know, within our professions, really within all the healing professionals or helping professions, there are people who unfortunately use language like that. Hopefully at some point we will be more compassionate. Karen Litzy:                   45:40                Yes. Yes. I hope so because, Oh man, that is something that just drives me crazy. But I digress. Let's get back to the book. What do you hope people take away from the book after reading it? Neil Pearson:                46:05                Well, I guess the biggest thing that I want people to take away with is this idea that yoga therapy is something we should consider as a one of the paths when people have ongoing pain. Overall, that's what I want people to do. You know, we don't think that yoga therapy is the answer. But we see it as something that can be integrated within our Western medical world with people with chronic pain and so integrated into that system. But also it allows more access because people usually can get to yoga therapy for less of a cost than they could to medical practitioners. So it's more just to see it as you know, as we've talked about, there's this view of what yoga is. Well, yoga is something different from that. And it actually does make sense as one path to consider when we're working towards recovery when pain persists. Karen Litzy:                   47:01                Absolutely. And now before we end, I have one more question for you. And that's knowing where you are now in your life and in your career. What advice would you give to your younger self? Neil Pearson:                47:16                Oh, wow. You know, after I graduated as a physical therapist, I spent the first four and a half years working in hospitals and worked, trauma, ICU. And I worked in a neonatal ICU and cardiac care and all these things. And, the thing that if I were to go back to that spot, I would say, Hey, you're doing the right thing. It's funny because a lot of my colleagues were working, you know, we're stepping right into private practices. And by being in that situation, what I not only did I started working as a physical therapist with this umbrella of protection because there were all these other people who are also working with the same patients in the hospital. But I learned such a humanistic view of what I was doing. Neil Pearson:                48:10                I guess that's because a lot of the stuff we were doing in the hospital had to do with life and death. Now when you're working in a trauma ICU with neonates and so I think you know, cause I know there was a lot of pressure I wanted to work in, you know, sports medicine and in private practice. There was pressure not to be in the hospital. So I guess I'd go back and say you're doing the right thing cause it really helped me to see the person more than the low back or the shoulder or the knee. Karen Litzy:                   48:50                Yeah. You know, I worked in a hospital first as well when I first graduated from PT school. Neil Pearson:                49:00                There are some advantages to that. Karen Litzy:                   49:04                Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. I think it like really increases your empathy and your communication skills. Cause you're like you said you're dealing with pretty sick people. And I wouldn't have traded that for the world. All right, so now where can people find the book? Neil Pearson:                49:28                Well the books on Amazon. Awesome. So that's probably the easiest place to find it. Karen Litzy:                   49:34                Yes. So we'll put the link in the show notes. So if people want to go to podcast.healthywealthysmart.com, they can just click on this episode and go straight to the book. Neil Pearson:                49:47                Great. And if people want to learn anything more about the other things that I work on. My website is paincareu.com I'll share that as well with you on there. You can learn about the pain care yoga training that I do and I have a distance professional mentorship that I do for health care professionals as well. Karen Litzy:                   50:11                Nice. That's awesome. And because you're up in Canada, right? Neil Pearson:                50:16                Yeah, that's right. If you're in Vancouver and you drove East of it four and a half hours over a couple of mountain ranges, I'm in the Okanogan Valley of British Columbia. Karen Litzy:                   50:26                Got it. Kind of. It is so big. Well Neil, thank you so much for coming on. This was a great conversation. I think it's going to give people a lot to think about when they're working with those patients in pain. So thank you so much. And everyone, thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.     Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on iTunes!

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Keats Snideman on the show to discuss the non-traditional path to physical therapy school.  Keats Snideman is a results-driven Rehab and fitness professional with over 20 years in the Fitness/Athletic Performance and bodywork industry and most recently the field of physical therapy. In this episode, we discuss: -How Keats’ background in health and wellness enhanced his learning in PT school -The personal and professional pros and cons of being a non-traditional PT student -The benefits of diversity within a PT cohort -Time and resource management to avoid burnout -And so much more!   Resources: Keats Snideman Twitter Keats Snideman Instagram Keats Snideman Facebook Reality Based Fitness Website Email: ksnideman@gmail.com   For more information on Keats: Hello, my name is Keats Snideman and I am a results-driven Rehab and fitness professional with over 20 years in the Fitness/Athletic Performance and bodywork industry and most recently the field of physical therapy. My educational background includes a doctorate in physical therapy from Northern Arizona University (PHX Biomedical campus) and a B.Sc in Kinesiology from Arizona State University. Other certifications and titles held include: Certified Strength & Conditioning Coach (CSCS), Certified Orthopedic Manual Therapist (COMT, through OPTIM Manual Therapy), a Strong First Gyra (SFG) Level 1 Kettlebell instructor, a certified Kettlebell Functional Movement Screen Specialist (CK-FMS), a certified neuromuscular therapist (CNMT), and a licensed massage therapist (LMT) in the state of Arizona.   Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy:                   00:01                Hi Keats, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on. So today we're going to be talking about the non traditional path to physical therapy school. And the way we're kind of defining this nontraditional path would be you didn't graduate from high school, go to undergrad and right into physical therapy school. So there was some time off in which you had a completely different career. Well, yeah, a different career and then decided to go into physical therapy school a little later in life. And I use that in quotes when I say that. So what I would love for you to do Keats is can you kind of tell your story to the audience so they get to know you a little bit more? Keats Snideman:           00:45                Yeah, absolutely. So like a lot of PTs, I have a fitness background, I ran some college track, got into working out and decided to become a personal trainer. This was like mid nineties, so quite, quite a long time ago. And that sort of led me down a little bit into the sort of functional fitness was kind of becoming a thing kind of in the 90s. And people who are beginning to use that word function a lot.  I have a twin brother also in the fitness world and we got exposed to a gentleman named Paul Chek. He's the guy who kind of popularized the Swiss ball, the physio ball doing the weight training on it, standing on it, doing all that crazy stuff. This was in like 97 to 99. And Paul Chek was also very rehab oriented, not a physical therapist himself, but started opening my eyes to sort of the world of sort of biomechanics and you know, it's sort of high level physiology, and started reading, you know, more technical sort of physical therapy type books and it really interested me and I was like, wow, there's more there than just being a personal trainer. Keats Snideman:           02:00                So I sort of made a decision at that point that I wanted to go on and get, I think it was a masters degree. Most of the programs at that time.  But then life happens. Got married, had our first child. I had my own business and eventually I went back to school to finish my bachelor's degree at Arizona state university. And really had the idea of going kind of into PT school pretty quickly after that. Had another child, open up a different location for my business. And time just goes by, you know, very, very quickly. And the next thing I knew it was 2012, 13. I was like, if I don't go to school now, I'm never gonna do it. But all the time through that I ended up getting a massage certification or I got in the early two thousands. Keats Snideman:           02:47                So I started putting my hands on clients who needed it. I started getting some soft tissue clients and basically really trying to find out, you know, what's the best way to use that tool? Cause I wasn't really like a massage person per se. I kind of came into the sort of the manual therapy body work world as more of a fitness person. How could I get somebody out of pain is pretty much the number one thing why people were seeing me so that I could get them more active to get them more mobile, that really fits in to what a lot of physical therapy does. Sort of our modern understanding of pain as it's changing that the therapy is just sort of a, you know, like a brief reset to try to then help, you know, we get that window of opportunity to try to make a change. Keats Snideman:           03:43                And so that, you know, that finally allowed me to make the decision to go to school because I want to be able to do more than just what a massage therapist can do. And more, you know, I wanted to be able to do, if I want to do a joint mobilization or manipulation like a chiropractor could do, you can't do that as a massage therapist. And so that was the final decision. I closed up my shop, I went back to school, I bit the bullet. It was a very challenging road, but even with the family and everything and I got through it, finished a few years ago and here I am. Karen Litzy:                   04:18                And I mean that's quite a story and we'll get into some of your words of wisdom and advice for other people who might be in the situation where they have a family, they have children, they don't know if they can do this because it is very time consuming. But before we get to that, I would love to know if you could name a couple of your top struggles during PT school that you were obviously able to overcome. Cause you did graduate, you're now a physical therapist. So give us some of your struggles and what you did to help get over them. Keats Snideman:           04:53                Absolutely. So I would say the first thing that was really, really the hardest for me and my program was at Northern Arizona university. And we were the first class to be sort of accelerated instead of a three year program. It was a two and a half year program. So we didn't get really a lot of breaks. So the coursework I think was condensed a little bit more. And so that meant a little bit higher level of information that we were obtaining. So that first semester was a bit like hazing for me. I've constantly been learning and taking continuing education courses my whole career as a massage therapist, personal trainer, strength coach. But I wasn't quite prepared for the onslaught, sort of the drinking from a fire hose type of thing, if you will, that that first semester did. Keats Snideman:           05:42                And I end up getting a C I think in pathophysiology, which was, it was like in memorizing a thousand PowerPoint slides and two every two weeks. It was brutal. And that put me in academic probation. You can't get a C in PT school. I mean, are you going to get many of them C B’s and above? And so that was, you know, I was worried, I thought, man, am I gonna flunk out? You know, I just started after all this, you know, what am I going to tell my family? This is terrible, but I got through it. The rest of my grades were actually quite good after that. But if you haven't been sort of in the academic setting for a while, you've really got to kind of give yourself a little bit of an adjustment time and not be so hard on yourself to the expectations for like getting these great grades needs to be tempered because it's intense. Keats Snideman:           06:35                Obviously you went through it. The amount of information that a physical therapy student will be exposed to is pretty insane. I know medical doctors get a tremendously crazy amount of sort of, you're sort of a general as first, but I think PTs have gotta be some of the broadest sort of scope practitioners out there and me, it was sort of like med school light, you know, a lot of our classes are actually with PAs because we were actually kind of getting sort of the university of Arizona medical curriculum that was given to the PAs at NAU and we were sort of teamed up there with them and some of the occupational therapists as well. So that was my biggest struggle was just the amount of information was just overwhelming. But once I kinda settled in and really focused more on comprehension and learning instead of just getting good grades, I've never been a grade person. I couldn't really care less, unfortunately you need to get good enough grades to pass and then not get kicked out of the program. But I've always been about, I want to understand. So I think if someone who hasn't been in school in awhile, kind of a non traditional student like myself, you've gotta be easy on yourself and you've got to give yourself time to adapt and to adjust to that, just that amazing, wildly overwhelming amount of information that you can get, especially in that first semester, that first year. Karen Litzy:                   08:07                And how did you balance the amount of information, the studying the comprehension. And I liked the fact that you said you're there to learn and comprehend, not just memorize, but that was in PowerPoint slides which I think is great advice for anyone. But how did you balance this with a wife and two kids? Keats Snideman:           08:27                It wasn't easy. I wouldn't really say that you can, it's not balanced and you know, the family has to be on board. Obviously my kids are a little bit older. My wife obviously she knew how much this meant to me, so she was very supportive. I wasn't able to be as involved with my kids and their sports and stuff. So there's definitely sacrifices. You can't pass PT school. Even if you're just a single younger person who doesn't have any problems, your life will not be balanced if you are in any doctoral program, especially one like physical therapy. So I wouldn't say I really balanced it, but when I had the time and I needed, because you can't just study, study, study, study, you will literally burn yourself out and there comes to a point, kind of like a sponge that's just saturated with water. Keats Snideman:           09:15                It won't take any more. It just doesn't work. So you have to give yourself little breaks more frequently. And for me, you know, I grew up sort of this ADD never got diagnosed until I was an adult. That's even more important cause I think my executive functioning skills burn out very, very quickly. So I do very well with like the Pomodoro technique where I do like 25 minutes and then take a five minute break or maybe that's 15 minutes, right? Things like that where you do like little mini sprints rather than a marathon of learning. So you give yourself time to get into what's called like a diffuse mode of sort of learning where you have the focus mode, where you're really putting a lot of effort, but then you gotta just walk away, go for a walk, juggle play ping pong. We played a lot of ping pong. If you have a ping pong table and you're like, that really got me through school. I love ping pong. I love it. I have a thing on the table in my house. And just doing something completely different. I'm very much into exercise activities, sprinting, little mini workouts, little mini resets. I feel that helped get me through it. You can't just sit there for hours upon hours and hours. You will just literally just be wasted time. Karen Litzy:                   10:35                Yeah, that is wonderful advice and I think that carries over nicely even when you start working as a therapist as well. Great advice. Now let's talk about some of the positives of going back to school as a nontraditional student. Keats Snideman:           10:58                Yeah. Well for me, there's a lot of positives because I had already been working with people for so long as a personal trainer, a strength coach and a massage therapist and sort of a hybrid of all those kind of at the same time that I've been dealing with people for so long. And a lot of these young millennials that are just, you know, like you talked about more traditional which is definitely a good way to do it. Don't get me wrong, I kind of wish I had done that, but they don't have sort of the life experience and the ability to deal, I think with a lot of the psychological and more of the interpersonal issues that will come up when you're dealing with people in pain and dealing. Like once you lived a little bit longer, I feel like you just get it a little bit more. A lot of people in PT, at least sort of in traditional outpatient or even acute, they're a little bit older and I feel like you can relate to them a little bit better. Keats Snideman:           11:51                And it helps me to think about something like soft skills that the professors would talk about and I'd be like, wow, I guess I'm kind of lucky in that respect because I'm older. I kind of already have had to develop those over the years. Those interpersonal communication skills and they would tell, you know, my classmates, these younger sort of millennials that it doesn't really matter what you get. Like, yeah, you got to pass the boards, you gotta pass this, you gotta be smart. But you know, being first in your class, like it doesn't mean you're necessarily gonna be the best therapist. And nobody's going to ask you, Hey, Karen, you know, can you tell me what you got on your NPT boards, et cetera? Oh no, that's too low. I want to work with this person over here. Keats Snideman:           12:36                Or Hey, what'd you get in your patho though? First? Because it doesn't matter, right? You've got to get through it. You can always, you don't need to memorize everything, just you need to know it enough to pass the test. But the most important thing in physical therapy is your ability to empathize, to be empathetic and to deal with another human being that you're dealing with. And I felt like as an older student that was something I kind of already had. So that was like a big plus I think. And when I'm working with my a little bit older clients and patients, I think that helps. So that's a big plus that you can't really get except through time and going through all those different sort of client and patient interactions over the years that will sort of, you know, cause you have these fits sometimes with clients, they don't work well. You don't always buttheads so you develop a certain amount of grit that I think as a bit of an older student you don't have to develop as much as the newer, younger ones. Karen Litzy:                   13:45                I think that’s a huge positive. I mean experience counts. Experience counts. What other positives did you find even maybe as you were going through the program or looking back on it now? Keats Snideman:           14:03                Well for me with my background and there were other students in there that were like in their thirties. There was one other guy in his forties, you know, it was like the real grandpa. He, you know, he was a little younger than me. But my background was in fitness and in massage. So I had already kind of educated myself a lot on anatomy and physiology. Since we had this sort of medical curriculum. We spent like six weeks or something on the organs and the guts and I didn't really know that too well, so that was pretty hard. But the rest of this stuff sort of with my background wasn't too hard in terms of it's like I felt like I had already prepared myself for that. Contrary to popular belief, you go to PT school more to learn about differential diagnosis and how to not really hurt somebody, you know, it's more like med school light than it is about, like, I'm going to become sort of a mild personal trainer. Like you don't spend a ton of time on the ins and outs of exercises. Keats Snideman:           14:57                They sort of say, well you're going to get that in your rotations. So a lot of people who are more non traditional that had come maybe from like insurance or a different world, they didn't have a much of an exercise background as me. They were really looking for that in school and we didn't get that as much. It's not really what it's about. You get that more on your rotation. So I felt like my previous background had made up for that gap that we weren't going to get in school. I had already sort of gone through the sort of the painstaking self studied it just really sort of figure out like you know, which exercises are appropriate for all the different muscle groups and movements and doing sort of like a needs analysis for the sport or the activity. Keats Snideman:           15:52                Cause that's not really what you're getting in PT school. And I think people don't always understand that they think they're going to learn like everything about exercise. And that's kind of not what it's about. It's more like I keep saying sort of like this being sort of a primary care provider light. You know, and now most States have direct access. So, you know, like taking blood pressures, understanding cardiovascular concerns, understanding pharmacology and like the basics of like protecting, these are real things that are very important that that's what I got out of PT school the most was sort of that thing being sort of, I'm trying marry care provider and the exercise stuff is sort of secondary. Karen Litzy:                   16:40                Yeah. So because you had had this other career before you came into PT school, you were able to kind of be on top of your game I guess. And like you said, you were able to fill in some of those gaps in PT school with what'd you already knew. So that is obviously a huge positive. Any other positives that maybe if someone out there is thinking, Hmm, maybe I want to go into PT school, but I'm like over 40 or I'm over 30 or 35, you know, or I'm married, I have kids. Were there any other positives that maybe not even related to physical therapy but maybe spilled over into your home life or your personal life? Keats Snideman:           17:19                Well I think it was good for my teenage boys to see that even as an older adult that, you know, the amount of effort they saw, how much I was putting into it, how much it meant to me to just to show them that if you put in the work at any age, like you can still do some pretty cool things. And, you know, you can teach an old dog new tricks. I mean, I think the younger brain learns a little quicker. I don't think there's a lot of debate about that. You can still do it. So for me, I think the positive was it gave me a sense of belief that if I'm really determined that I can find a way. So gave me like a new level of confidence in myself that I have the grit that I have, that I had to take the GRE three times. Keats Snideman:           18:09                And for those who don't know, that's the graduate record examination that's put on by the people who create the SAT. So it's sort of a SAT for college grads and I hadn't done like high school math, since like 80s and early nineties. So, you know, I did well on those other parts, but I just couldn't remember like basic stuff. I had to get the book. So it gave me sort of a new level of confidence that, you know what, even when things are really tough and you feel like you can't get through, like you can and you know, and you just got to kind of plow through it, like the time will go by anyway. And you just gotta figure it out. How can you work with yourself? To try to, you know, accomplish the goal as challenging as PT school at any age. Keats Snideman:           18:54                It's challenging but definitely harder if you have a family you've been out of sort of that test taking mode. I used a lot of like some of these other like apps where it sort of makes you keep doing the ones that you're not good at. Cause you do have to memorize some stuff for the test. Let's face it. But if you take the time and you're just, you don't be so hard on yourself, you can get through it, you will get through it. Karen Litzy:                   19:25                Absolutely. And now again, the question I ask everyone on the show is, and I feel like you kind of just answered it, but I'm going to ask the question anyway because maybe you have a different answer, but what advice would you give to yourself, your pre PT self knowing where you are now in your life and in your business and in your work? What advice would you give to your pre physical therapy school self? Keats Snideman:           19:54                Well I think I was very hard on myself for like initially doing poorly in that first semester especially in that pathophysiology class. But I really thought that I could get through it easier. You know, I just thought like, Oh, this, you know, this is going to be good. I've already sort of learned a lot on my own. I sort of underestimated. So I scheduled my sort of personal training and my sort of my whole clientele in a way that was not realistic. So, you know, working I think is good if you can do it, but giving yourself sort of the permission to say no to certain things that this is an important commitment. And that, you know, not to beat myself up that I'm not earning as much as I could potentially earn by working more because this is an important goal and I need to focus, you need to get it done. Keats Snideman:           20:56                There'll be plenty of time to work after, but I did work throughout my whole schooling. I was trying to bring in a couple thousand dollars a month, you know, for my own clientele. And I did, but that was about probably about a third of what I had originally sort of thought I could do. So I did have to take out a little more loans than I wanted to, but once I sort of realized that it's okay, that sort of like lowered that stress levels for myself, that just is a huge commitment that I've put on myself that I can do, I could commit to all these different elements. And there's only so much time in a day. Like, you know, there's only so much energy you have, you know, sort of like money in a bank. You don't have the, we call it like units of energy. Keats Snideman:           21:40                I don't have a hundred units of energy for school and a hundred units of energy for my family and a hundred and some energy for my clients. I have a hundred units total and that's what I sort of figured out. So I would give myself the advice then manage your units, you know, manage your physical and emotional capital because there's only so much and you just have to be realistic. And I just, I was not realistic with myself with what I thought I could do versus the reality. And once I sort of kind of had that sort of come to Jesus moment, I was better cause I was okay with it. Karen Litzy:                   22:13                Well I think that's great advice. So giving yourself permission to prioritize things in your life and doing it all to 100 percent. Excellent advice. Now is there anything else that you wanted to let the listeners know before we sign off about being that nontraditional student in physical therapy school? Keats Snideman:           22:34                I think we need more non traditional students. I mean I think it only helps the programs. I think if any of my classmates that are listening to this, hopefully they are, they can agree. I think a lot of people appreciated me in the class because I would ask the questions. I find if I didn't, interesting kind of being with sort of this younger generation, it's like they're just programmed and it's kind of like robots that just like get the information, figure out how to you know, memorize it, regurgitate it on a test, move on. And it's more about like passing and getting to the next level than it is about mastery and comprehension and not a lot like questions are asked about things that I thought maybe that the teachers explained that were confusing. So I would ask the questions, I'd be like, well what about this and what about that? Keats Snideman:           23:32                And because I'd been in the real world for longer. So I think having that older student and maybe some people thought it was a little bit annoying and that's okay. I'm okay. To me, I’m that guy, because I think it was helpful for the betterment of the class. And when you have somebody who's lived a little bit longer, like you just don't care as much. You just, if something's important to ask, it's important. Like you don't have to go, Oh, I'm not going to ask cause I don't want to like offend anybody or you know what I'm saying? So like having those little more seasoned, non traditional students, I think it spices things up a little bit. And I felt that I kind of provided that for my class and it really sort of, it kinda helps sort of broaden the curriculum by bringing in more real life experience of working with people. Keats Snideman:           24:25                Not that I was a physical therapist, but I was working with people in pain, working with people who had weakness and you know, fitness issues, which is what we do a lot in PT regardless of your setting. So that's my advice is that if you’re really, really passionate about helping people in that domain, that we need more nontraditional, a little bit older students in these programs because it really helps to just sort of broaden the scope because of what we can bring with our experience as everybody else in the class. Everyone has their own experiences. Even, I mean young, middle age, older, it's all good. Like to have a variety instead of just everybody being the same. Like I'm all about diversity and I think we should just embrace more diversity. And like I saw something on the news, I think it was the other week on CBS or something and it was some guy like he was like a car mechanic and he went back to school like in his late fifties and he got his medical degree that just like, I love it. That's stuff just like juices me up and he's bringing all his experience to that program. That must have been really neat for the other students. Karen Litzy:                   25:37                Yeah, I could not agree with you more. And now where can people find you if they want to chat about your experiences or if they have any questions for you? Keats Snideman:           25:47                Yeah, I'm a pretty Googleable guy. I've got a couple of websites that are sort of in shambles right now, but if you just Google my name, Keats Snideman, I'm on Facebook, I'm on Twitter and Instagram. I think it's a @coachKeats and then I think it's Keith Snideman is what I'm on for Instagram. I'm trying to figure out this whole social media thing. For my own business. I do a combination of PR and work and then just my own, I'm too much of an entrepreneur to work full time for anybody else. But if anybody wants to email me, it's ksnideman@gmail.com. I love helping people who are non traditional to sort of, you know, make the decision. I mean it's not for everybody, but if you're on the fence, I talked to people frequently who sort of find out about me and I would love to talk to you about it. Karen Litzy:                   26:43                Awesome. Absolutely, all of that information will be in the show notes for this episode at podcast.healthywealthysmart.com so that people can one click and get to you in any way possible. Perfect. We'll have it all there. So Keith, thank you so much for taking the time out while you're here in New York, dropping your son off at NYU. Keats Snideman:           27:01                I know. Crazy. Yeah, it's been a blast. I'm so glad we got to meet up today. I've always wanted to, you know, talk to some other PTs when I come out here and I'm just, yeah, I'm very, very glad that I was able to get on your show. I've been a big time fan of your podcast when I was a student. I'd share it with my fellow classmates. Your doing an amazing job of just getting amazing people and concepts out into the world. Karen Litzy:                   27:26                Well, thank you very much. And, I again, thank you for taking the time today and everyone else have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.   Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on iTunes!